Thoughts on Reworked Thornmail from a Filthy Tank Main

The Yetii Rider··1 votes·701 views
6/28 PBE Update

Reworked] Thornmail (LCU only atm)*

Thornmail has been reworked, including new build, stats & costs, component item, and passives.

Total cost  2900g 
Builds out of [Bramble Vest + Ruby Crystal + Warden's Mail + G]

Stats & Effects:

    +250 Health
    +75 Armor
    Unique Passive - Thorns: Upon being hit by a basic attack, reflects magic damage equal to 10% of your bonus armor plus 25, inflicting Grievous Wounds on the attacker for 1 second. 

    Unique Passive - Cold Steel: When hit by basic attacks, reduce attacker's attack speed by 15% for 1 second.

For anyone wondering, this is Bramble Vest:

[NEW] Bramble Vest (LCU only atm)*

Builds into Thornmail.
Total Cost: 900g.
Recipe: [Cloth Armor + Cloth Armor + G]
Stats & Effects:
    +35 Armor.
    Unique Passive - Thorns: Upon being hit by a basic attack, reflects 25 magic damage, inflicting Grievous Wounds on the attacker for 1 second.

So, what is the new Thornmail like? Well, it's tentative, for starters. That's depressing, but hopefully we'll get some more context soon.

Thornmail has lost 25 armor, gained 250 health, and added 700 cost along with the Cold Steel passive.

The damage returned has been significantly lowered, from 15% of pre-mitigation damage dealt to 25 base plus 10% of your bonus armor. For those of you who are less math-oriented, a full crit Caitlyn Headshot could easily exceed 1000 damage pre-mitigation, so you could have upwards of 150 base damage on your Thornmail return.

In exchange, Thornmail now applies Grievous Wounds. This is the big thing that a lot of people have been requesting for a long time. So what do I think about this? I think Grievous Wounds is largely too broad of an application for the effect that people actually want.

What people want is they want Thornmail to actually damage through lifesteal. What Grievous Wounds does is lower lifesteal but not negate it, and punish a lot of other champions that don't deserve it. Darius should not lose his giant Q heal because he W'd the wrong person beforehand. Renekton jumping in for a quick W Q shouldn't get punished either.

Generally, melee champions have very specific combo rotations that require a lot of muscle memory and are dependent on certain abilities that heal them for quite a lot.

So I don't think reducing lifesteal by 40% is good enough, and I don't think punishing melee champions for choosing the wrong target is a good thing either.

I think that Thornmail should simply have its own passive: Unique Passive - Thorns: Upon being hit by a basic attack, reflect 25 magic damage plus 10% of your bonus armor. The target gains a stack of Thorns, which reduces the target's lifesteal by 8% for 3 seconds. This effect can stack up to 12 times.

There, now you punish lifestealers who focus you effectively without screwing over melee champions who desperately need their healing.

9 Comments

Ralanr3 votes

What people want is they want Thornmail to actually damage through lifesteal.

I can't speak for everyone, but I don't actually want that.

Many champions centered around sustain or that buy items for sustain do it because that's their primary defensive option. If it was weak enough that I could buy an item that actually outdamages their sustain while they heal, then that vastly undervalues their ability to heal and makes purchasing or playing sustain heavy kits useless.

Now granted, that sounds like what GW already does, except GW doesn't punch through sustain, it just weakens it so that your other abilities can punch through it. Having the power to just punch through sustained healing with reflection damage would make an item incredibly oppressive against people without sustain.

I don't really know if it's a good idea to attach GW to thornmail, but I do welcome it as it is frustrating for your most consistent source of GW being in the hands of someone who needs so many other items to function when you need GW to deal with the now threat. I've bought executioners too many times on champions who don't use it well because my adc refuses to buy or doesn't even know what the item is.

As for your suggestion, I don't really understand the difference. And I'm probably not doing the math correctly but that seems like much stronger anti healing.

What if the GW only took effect at a certain health threshold or (can't believe I'm suggesting this) as an active ability?

As for your

The Yetii Rider1 votes

The difference between my suggestion and GW is that my suggestion ONLY affects lifesteal, and it punishes repeated auto attacks instead of giving the full benefit from a single auto (so it specifically attacks marskmen playstyles).

GW affects all healing. I don't think we need to affect ability-based healing like the heal on Mundo's ultimate or the heal on Volibear's passive with Thornmail.

Trap or a Trick2 votes

8% stacking 12 times? 8*12=96 so if you aren't Olaf with item 3072 item 3153 item 3153 item 3153 item 3153 item 3065 and ls quints and the mastery, you will go into negative, meaning you deal damage to yourself based on the damage u deal.

(Note this part right here is SUPER important)-->> KAPPA

The Yetii Rider1 votes

96% of your lifesteal, not 96% total lifesteal. So if you have 10% lifesteal, 12 stacks would reduce it to 0.4% lifesteal.

Edit: Missed the kappa, but you are correct that I wasn't as clear as I could have been so I'll leave this up for clarity's sake.

Oleandervine1 votes

You didn't address the conflicting passives. Cold Steel is absolutely stupid on an item that begs your opponents to attack you more.

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

That's debatable.

If I want an item which allows me to duel an autoattack-oriented champion (or discourage them from attacking me), Cold Steel is rather valuable.

Ralanr1 votes

Thinking it over, cold steel actually strengthens the anti healing because it makes the target heal less through healing reduction and lower constant damage to gain healing from.

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

Exactly.

The item is oriented around reducing the sustain of autoattack-oriented champions rather than making someone kill themselves for hitting you.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

It's a defensive item primarily, not an offensive item. The damage on Thornmail isn't to kill your target, it's to help make sure they can't lifesteal off of you.

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