People hate the champions who can actually fight range

Mira Arya Enthe··106 votes·6,446 views

Riven Yasuo Akali Ekko Fizz Jax Darius Nocturne Illaoi Irelia LeeSin Renekton Vi Zac Zed Talon Tryndamere Khazix Katarina Kassadin Shyvana Gangplank Hecarim Poppy

They have all been the center of a lot of hate recently(Meaning the past few months)(except Trynd, Kass and Jax, that was an old thing.) I find this funny, as these also happened to be the melee champions who have the best chance of surviving in lane against, and dealing with ranged APCs and ADCs. Seems to me what people hate, is just anytime melee does well.

Some ranged champions get hate, of course. Syndra Vayne Caitlyn Ahri

But the majority of complaints I see on the board is anytime a melee champion is strong, and thus able to lane against and team fight against ranged champions. It takes an ADC, Support or APC being 55%+ before people start bitching(with exceptions like Vayne) but melee champions can be negative win rate, but if they are even viable and have kits that can deal with ranged champions. The boards are up in a fire demanding they be utterly gutted.

Well I am sorry you actually have to think on your toes and play the game, rather than AFK and play hearthstone while right clicking things. But it is an interactive game, and picking range isn't suppose to hand you a free, easy lane where you just chillax.

Prepares for immense downvotes as the boards love mid lane mages

#Edit At least three commenters did not read: (Meaning the past few months)(except Trynd, Kass and Jax, that was an old thing.)

Most commenters cannot tell the difference between: "can actually fight range" and "counters range" Not necessarily that they do well. But they stand a chance.

For the argument: "The melees that can fight range are also toxic to other melees"

I counter: "If they have the tools to deal with range, and that makes them actually viable. Perhaps they are the superior design, and those who are behind them need to be brought up to their standard of design, rather than tearing those viable melees who can fight range, down to the standard of the ones who cannot."

For the typical hate on Yasuo and Lee: I hate them too. As in I don't enjoy playing against them. Point is still valid.

For the inclusion of Nidalee: It was a long list. I meant to click this guy Nocturne didn't notice. As I have seen 3 hate threads and 2 how to deal with threads about him recently from people playing mages/adcs.

131 Comments

Xeruon39 votes

Since when are Illaoi and Darius good against ranged carries?

Velzard of Koz15 votes

I am more concerned about this sentence:

Well I am sorry you actually have to think on your toes and play the game, rather than AFK and play hearthstone while right clicking things.

So as Mage who has everything a skillshot that is telegraphed, many times marked with hitbox, delayed, sometimes blocked by other unit and can be dodged, I am just rightclicking and I have to use my brain.

But that melee doesn't need to use brain to possibly dodge literally everything in my combo and then use the fact I used my abilities, the only thing I can use, to jump on me with point-click ability, use their mostly unmissable or point-click combo and If that won't kill me use their rightclick basic attacks since 18 out of 24 of listed champs are AD or can be decent hybrid and 3 out of remaining 6 have basic-attack enhancement.

He sounds like speaking more of ADCs but then ends it with:

Prepares for immense downvotes as the boards love mid lane mages

Like I can also write:

I am sorry you have to use your eyes and brain, lure my cooldowns, dodge it, actually watch what I am doing to expect my combo and then smash your head to keyboard to undodgeably gapclose me and click me to death

But I suppose I'd be downvoted because just like he thinks he'll get downvoted because of "Squishy mages and marksmen are weak because they are squishy" circlejerk, it seems some people fight it with "My Fighter with point-click gapcloser and 3 seconds cooldown on their main ability and strong basic attacks needs more brainz to fight all these dodgeable abilities" circlejerk.

And I fully admit my OTP can be cancer against weak melee champs, but seeing a Fighter, knowing If you fuck up ability which can be dodged you won't get another one within cca 6 seconds while If he gets close enough he just rolls his head over keyboard and I loose 80% of my hp with no proper chance to dodge it other than run and hope you they won't be smart enough to dodge the big glowing red area of your CC, isn't fun either. We are all cancer equally.

ONLY then after I got triggered I noticed he lists Nidalee who can get ranged atrillery, while he won't list Jayce, who got tons of hate recently and THEN I noticed he listed Darius whom I hated originally, but figured out he's probably the easiest to kite from all Juggernauts.

l Dárius l1 votes

From my experience with Darius, you can win lane against almost anything ranged except Kennen if they get into melee range just once.

Xeruon1 votes

if they get into melee range just once.

Why would any ranged top laner that isn't Jayce want to get into melee range against a Darius?

DorkunedAuras16 votes

As someone who plays Melees primarily, and wants to lane at some point, I whole heartedly agree with this point.

Oleandervine13 votes

Your basis of theory is not quite right. The majority of those champions are incredibly frustrating to deal with, and their kits allow them to function well in any scenario and pull out on top, most of the displaying no apparent weaknesses. Most of them dont even specialize in excelling against range, and in fact, most of them can be devastated by range. I'll start from the top:

Riven - Riven is hardly proficient against range. Her kit is just incredibly frustrating to go against, especially if she's ahead. She has 3 dashes, a stun, a shield, and she gets projectiles. She wrecks and can effectively get away, leaving many fuming at her. Against most range, however, she's ruined.

Yasuo - Ah, Yasuo. Probably the only champ in your list who is designed against range. Everyone hates him, I need not go on.

Akali - She's got loads of mixed damage and dashes for days. Early range will fuck her up, and lots of AOE can still wreck her in her shroud. Her effectiveness against ranged is not why she's frustrating. It's her stealth, her dash, and her incredible in your face burst.

Ekko - Ekko. Ekko is not proficient against ranged, and never has been. He does have loads and loads and loads of crowd control, and that's why he's frustrating, because that much burst shouldn't have that much CC. Coupled with his tank build which made him unkillable, and this is why he was hated. Any good mage can at least put him on the ropes.

Fizz - Fizz is an assassin. He's got some irritating parts of his kit that help him avoid range, but it's mainly his troll pole, his hidden DOT, and irritating burst that make him frustrating.

Jax - Jax has really no built in defense against range, and in fact crumbles against any kind of spell thrown at him. He can hop and he can block AAs, but not spells, and any type of caster can ruin his day in a hot minute, especially if they have any kind of CC. People hate him because he's a turd with absurd attack speed and some of the most frequent mixed damage in the game, making him difficult to protect against.

Darius - Darius is absolutely screwed by range, this is why Kayle is one of his biggest counters. He's kites like a bitch. People hate him because he deals insane damage and has DOTs that make Cassiopeia and Twitch cry themselves to sleep. On and the recharging dunk.

Nidalee - Nidalee is half ranged and chucks spears that halve your HP. Then she turns into a cat and leaps away into the darkness, only to chuck another spear at you. How on earth did she make your list when she's so range reliant?

Illaoi - Illaoi is another ones of those champs who's kited to death. Range devastates her. But if you get in her space, you die. Everyone does. This is why people hate her.

Irelia - Irelia is an overloaded bitch and everyone knows it. She's not good against range because she does struggle against, and that's not why she's hated. It's her tenacity, her stuns, and her self healing absurd true damage autos.

LeeSin - Lee Sin is overloaded and a poster boy. He exploited a glitch so good it became an accepted part of his kit. He's tanky, he's fast, he heals, he shields, and he kicks you, while dealing loads of damage. He can,be kited and killed by range if he misses his Q.

Renekton - Renekton is just beefy and he hits hard. He's also go dashes. He's easily trumped at a range though.

Vi - Again, she has dashes, but not 24/7. Range can destroy her.

Zac - Zac has CC for days and is impossible to kill along with dealing %HP damage. This is why he's hated. He actually sucks against most ranged characters he doesn't take by surprise.

Zed - Zed is just utterly obnoxious. He's got another overloaded kit and doesn't stay where he's supposed to be, and he can be rough when allowed to get a lead. Ranged can still ruin him though, especially Annie or Ryze.

Talon - Annie shits on Talon. So does any AOE mage. His only saving grace is his ult, which is still subject to danger against the likes of Annie, Brand, or Xerath. Melee has a harder time against him than ranged.

Tryndamere - Tryndamere is a one trick pony who gets free stats, like Yas. He is NOT good against ranged and will get eaten alive by them, specifically Ashe and Kayle. He split pushes like a beast and can hit hard due to the free crit. This is why he's hated.

Khazix - Kha'zix is another assassin with a leap. A leap does not immediately mean you're a ranged killer. What made him immensely frustrating was his stealth and his ability to waste you of you are alone.

Katarina - Katarina scales like a beast. She's not good against ranged, and can get easily shut down if the ranged player is competent. Her biggest frustration is her ult, which hits like a freight train. This is why people hate her. That and Shunpo.

Kassadin - Kassadin did loads of damage and then blinked away forever. He was uncatchable. That's why people hated him. He was good against everyone.

Shyvana - Another champion who gets kited harder than a dog chasing a car. Rageblade made her a monster. That's why people hated her. She sucks against range.

Gangplank - Gangplank dealt tons of damage and his barrels were hard to escape. Crit plank was a problem. However, he doesn't do well against ranged.

Hecarim - Hecarim was exploiting Homeguard with Teleport, and then he just got super strong with item shift. He isn't necessarily good against range, and anyone who sees him coming can prepare.

Poppy - Poppy sucks against ranged. She doesn't suck against dashes, and people near walls pay for walking there. She's hard as hell to kill and does a lot of damage.

So in short, your theory is unfounded, and having a dash does not make you good against range, as you seem to believe.

Mira Arya Enthe36 votes

I glanced over your post, saw "Rageblade" and "Shyvana" jumped off a cliff.

TyrekGoldenspear5 votes

No Mira! Don't jump! They buffed Rageblade so it isn't as much as a troll build! You can actually fool people into thinking it's a good item for her!

Mira Arya Enthe8 votes

ded... gravestone says "Rageblade or AP Shyvana, best meme 2011-2016"

Takazaki2 votes

never forget manamune Aatrox

Sraeg20132 votes

And Tiamat Morgana.

I find it pretty stupid he (Gambit?) was punished for it.

DunkinNoobs15 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ivIW2nlE,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2016-12-26T02:10:03.176+0000)

I glanced over your post, saw "Rageblade" and "Shyvana" jumped off a cliff.

I'd rather see crit on a Shyvana before I see a rageblade. That's how not worth it Rageblade is on Shyv.

Sraeg20132 votes

jumped off a cliff

How's the trip?

Surfer Ashe13 votes

> Renekton, Darius, Tryndamere > Dealing with ranged

Not only incorrect but they're also incredibly oppressive to other melee when strong to the point of stagnanting top lane meta.

Boiled Triangles2 votes

meme arrows

Surfer Ashe7 votes

> talking shit about meme arrow > new person can't meme arrow

JackMcSnipeyz13 votes

Lol, yea sure, i hate darius because he can fight me at range, not because if im melee i have no possible way of trading with him. And yasuo, with his 2 passives, mobility and (for some reason) tankiness. And riven with a thousand jumps that i cant even get close to as melee.

See the trend? People bitch about those champs because they shit on melee champs, if im playing adc, i can kite darius, or stay away from riven, but what do i do against them as a melee champ?

TotalJerk2 votes

i hate darius because he can fight me at range, not because if im melee i have no possible way of trading with him.

Get in close to him to minimize his Q heal/damage

And yasuo, with his 2 passives, mobility and (for some reason) tankiness. And riven with a thousand jumps that i cant even get close to as melee.

This is a classic; just list all of a champions strengths in an exaggerated way to make them look OP.

Garen:

  • silence
  • 3 passives
  • percent missing and max HP true damage
  • free resistances just for CSing
  • slow cleanse
  • armor shred
  • infinite sustain
LankPants12 votes

I agree with the direction, but some of the champs you list are amongst the worst in the game. People don't hate Lee Sin/Yasuo/Fizz because they can handle range, they hate them because they're legitimately turbocancer champs.

Dubshoka7 votes

Not sure why, but "turbocancer" gave me the giggles.

bad arcade kitty11 votes

that is another thread with a laughably bad list

the list includes those champs nobody complains about like jax, kass or trynd, a ranged champ - nidalee (why not jayce too, lol), and a few junglers who don't lane at all - vi, lee, zac, kha, hec, also nidalee

Quinnova5 votes

(Meaning the past few months)(except Trynd, Kass and Jax, that was an old thing.)

...

Ralanr7 votes

Agreed. Though I think people point out that melee champions that can contend with range are obnoxious in melee.

Mira Arya Enthe13 votes

If they have the tools to deal with range, and that makes them actually viable. Perhaps they are the superior design, and those who are behind them need to be brought up to their standard, rather than tearing those viable melees who can fight range, down to the standard of the ones who cannot.

Genocide Victim7 votes

about 3/4 this list isn't even good against ranged LOL

deadlychuck6 votes

Except remember the moba genre is more strategy than action.

Yes, there are action elements, but this "thinking on your toes" isn't actually thinking. It's just drilled in reactionary play. It's more like a firefight in call of duty, than a battle in an RTS.

These champions get hate, because they aren't strategic to play as and/or against. Yes, you can beat them if you have reinforced all of the twitch reactions against them, but you lose if you don't have the exact plays hardwired into your subconscious.

Penns5 votes

Fizz has the best chances to survive in lane gainst mages/adcs? o

Mira Arya Enthe3 votes

(Meaning the past few months)

Penns3 votes

He had before the rework?

Mira Arya Enthe2 votes

When Tank Fizz was a thing yes.

Penns5 votes

Well that was played top lane anyway where no one was ranged. The only thing in his kit that helps him "survive" against ranged champs is his passive, which is gonna block like 3 dmg per auto and his E I guess, which you can use 2- max 4 times in lane before having to go back because youre low on mana.

PureUtterCancer2 votes

top lane anyway where no one was ranged

Gnar Heimerdinger Jayce Anivia Kennen Quinn Teemo Urgot Vladimir

macromite3 votes

after looking at your list I can say with certainty that he is correct.

No one on that list is played enough overall to qualify as a character in league of legends.

Takazaki2 votes

Jayve kennen and gnar??????????

macromite1 votes

Jayce and kennen are both in/out. give them a few months, they will be forgotten again.

and gnar isn't entirely ranged, so he doesn't qualify for the other piece.

Takazaki1 votes

meta or not their mete is top lane so they qualified top laners

a champions popularity doesnt change the fact what they do and where they are played.

further more gnar is similar enough to jayce and elise he just has to manage a resource to keep his ranged, thats like saying kayle is melee when although true, she primarily does damage from a range. hybrids are still considered ranged

macromite1 votes

I can see your logic, but I don't think you understand even a fraction of mine.

Let me attempt to destroy your arguments in the most concise manner I can manage.

First up, hybrid champions counting as ranged or melee.

Hybrids count as melee and as range. which means that you are both correct and false in fairly equal measures, However, Being false on such a degree immediately makes your point invalid. when arguing using a truly hybrid champ you should never refer to them as a ranged or melee, without both considering them from the other light, as it immediately destroys the validity of the point.

Also, gnar specifically can't be considered on the same scale as any other ranged champion because he is not completely in control of which form he is in, also, unlike other hybrids most of gnars real fighting is done during his melee form.

Second, champion popularity and its effects.

A champion under a certain popularity tend to skew many forms of research, with greatly inflated win-rates due to hardcore players holding a greater percentage of games played and champion familiarity being miniscule among enemies, but those both pale in comparison to a major effect of having such a minor role, and that is that when a champion is out and is unplayed for a serious amount of time, they stop affecting the balance of the game.

Which specifically means that the champion is no longer a part of the same game or meta, and means that the champion is no longer truly a part of any position. A good example right now is trundle, he was sitting out of the meta for an incredibly long time, and eventually when he rejoined the league he ended up not being a part of his historied role of top.

Or more simply put, under a certain popularity the champion can no longer be considered a part of any position.

Third, Why you don't even understand your own argument.

You say specifically that the champions are qualified top laners. but my point is that those characters don't count as coming from this game. this is because the characters you mentioned are either incredibly niche and almost never played or champions that became strong for brief flashes but went back to the same slum of zero impact as the rest of the ridiculous champions you listed.

Takazaki1 votes

counter argument

Being hybrid doesnt make my statement any less correct it , the fact of the matter that these are the champions that are mentioned when top laners for over a month have been complaining about when it comes to ranged match ups. The only one where this fails to even partially remain true is possibly gnar as the more aggressive he plays the more he turns into a melee how ever during lane phase is is primarily ranged so saying gnar fails to hold up here is stretching it. further more, on gnars play style he weakens you with mini form and executes with mega form, " real fighting" as in the all, in takes much less time as being in mega form is a much shorter period then mini thus directly proving he spends more time as a ranged champion then a melee ( and this is only talking about whilst fighting . further more due to the nature of his passive he always spends more time in mini form regardless).

As to champion popularity, yes it does effect win rates and other statistics how ever that does not change a champions meta, saying that popularity is what makes a champion is utter nonsense. The non-meta players find ways to fight the meta using their own niche which creates these skewed numbers, this is usually through mastery of a champion so it could be argued this is how the champion should be played thus they create a unique identity of a champion ( Lane push nasus being one example that got popular). Also about trundle, I've seen his meta go from jungle to top and back again, they doesn't change the fact he is still considered a top laner, like morgana and Annie for the mid/support role its called being a flex pick the champion itself is just able to handle a diverse set of roles. No matter the popularity these champions still show up in top lane and effect it in some way or form unless what enables them to be effective in that lane is removed or made ineffective this will never be the case for jayce, kennen or gnar as jayce and gnar are designed to work in that lane and kennen's laning in melee match ups ( which is a majority of top lane ) and utility will always allow him to flex multiple roles.

In other words, even taking your argument in to consideration in saying a champion under x popularity has no " real meta" all you have done is basically stated the champion is now a flex pick which does not change the fact they crop up in top lane.


you're entire argument is based around the focus of top lane having the most impact in the game

"strong for brief flashes but went back to the same slum of zero"

you fall flat here because kennen and gnar are picked for the reason of them having extreme effect on the mid and late ( the majority of the game ) game while jayce is picked for being a lane bully.

until kennen and jayce hit aatrox levels of play your argument can never hold water as 5-8% pick rate is still a decent amount of games played ( in the top 50 or 40% of the cast ).

macromite1 votes

So you're just stupid. got it.

Takazaki1 votes

and you're silver. got it

macromite1 votes

atleast I can read and understand what I read.

TurquoiseYoshi5 votes

Except for all of the recent hate towards all things ADC.

DarthSpectrum5 votes

That is not true, Riven, Akali, Jax, Darius, Illaoi, Renekton, Tryndamere, Shvyana, GP, and Poppy ALL prefer melee matchups.

In fact, out of that list Riven, Darius, Jax, Illaoi, Renekton, and Tryndamere are hard countered by ranged champions. Riven needs to use her abilities to gap close and is prone to poke. Jax's CDs are too long early for him to use it to engage. In most cases he needs to use it defensively. Akali has no options against range champions until level 6. Yes, she can steamroll them once she gets ult, but most Akali players just try to survive the laning phase against a ranged enemy. Darius is legit hard kitted by ranged champions. He can make some plays early, but if you die to Darius as ranged, you definitely fucked up. Illaoi is somewhat in the same boat as Darius. Her pull can set up for a play, but otherwise she can't catch ranged enemies. Renekton and Tryndamere both get wrecked by Teemo. Renekton actually only loses ranged match ups. Tryndamere eventually scales enough to fight ranged champions, but in lane his E CD is way too long.

GP and Poppy prefers melee matchups because it is much easier for them to harass. Ranged champions can CS GP's barrels in lane. For Poppy, it is much easier for her to lane her Q and E if the opponent has to walk up for CS.

Half of your list are hated because they are assassins. There are some merit to what you are saying. It can be frustrating to fight against Akali or Riven with their mobility, or get through Yasuo's wind wall. These champions are not necessarily OP, although some are. Some of them just have bad design or over loaded kits to allow them to go even against ranged champions. Being melee is a huge disadvantage in this game, but it doesn't always justify what these champions are given to compensate their lack of range.

The other half of your lists are the "tanks" that 100-0 carries. This issue is mainly due to CotC, and it is unfortunately something Riot is experimenting with during the beginning of the season.

Dextix LT5 votes

You do realize that most of these champs are not being complained about currently.

And then, you do realize that if they can beat ranged, how much it sucks for other melle champs to fight them?

Furthermore, some of these are not even good vs ranged! DARIUS? RENEKTON? AGAINST RANGE? WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING!

This list is just embarassing to read.....

Fly Fish Master5 votes

" For the typical hate on Yasuo and Lee: I hate them too. As in I don't enjoy playing against them. Point is still valid."

Point is still valid.

My man [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Mira Arya Enthe3 votes

I mean, I don't enjoy playing against Gangplank and Lux, doesn't mean I'd remove them or think they deserve to be nerfed into dust.

Fly Fish Master2 votes

Again,

MY MAN [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

GULAG 4 U2 votes

Bullshit. What happened to gameplay and bronze? Since when did people stop being biased shits and "(I'm a lux main) nerf yasuo bc he counters my main??" what happened? When did logic infect gameplay??

LatetotheRace4 votes

Riven Yasuo Akali Ekko Fizz Jax Darius Nidalee Illaoi Irelia LeeSin Renekton Vi Zac Zed Talon Tryndamere Khazix Katarina Kassadin Shyvana Gangplank Hecarim Poppy

About half of these guys are distinctly good at diving/killing ranged champions. That term "ranged" really ought to be more specific though.

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