These reworks in contrast to Poppy's (long post)

chipndip1··15 votes·2,215 views

You know how Sona, Cass, and Morde mains are all going "This rework fucking sucks!" regardless of the win rates their champs have because, let's be honest, Riot fucked up one thing or another about their kits? Well, Poppy has the exact OPPOSITE effect of them right now. Her play rates are like...10% in top lane and 5% in the jungle according to champion.gg (site that uses Plat+ play since that's where Riot draws a good deal of their balancing info). However, her win rates are COMPLETELY GARBAGE IN BOTH SPOTS. I mean like shit stain brown tier in both spots. Here's what I deduce from the situation. If you don't want the big ass walls of text, there's a conclusion at the bottom that's much shorter.

The problem people find with the Sona, Karma, Morde, and Cass reworks is that, ultimately, Riot put too much power into one singular part of their kits. Sona's value is on Q, Morde's is on Q, and Cass's is on E, with the occasional ult for all three. Champion kits, both new releases and reworks, ultimately feel better to play when their whole kit synergizes and adds up to a game play style that makes sense for both laning and team fighting. People get pissed at Yasuo, and in practice, he's only strong when someone REALLY knows how to play Yasuo, but everyone agrees he's fun to play because all those abilities add up to something. They literally make his own wind-based anime fight scenes, complete with an aerial combo. Tahm Kench was able to stay low-key op because people were having too much fun with his kit, which compliments itself, to notice. Ekko and Fio were number nightmares, but now that they're in a more balanced place, they're fine additions to the roster. If anyone can't put their finger on why people still complain about Sona, Morde, or Cass, it's because too much power is in one part of their kit to the point where their game play is "If you aren't landing this singular move over and over, you're doing it wrong".

Poppy, however, avoids this issue...but this is done in such a weird way that she only suffers for it. Her Q is her damage and it slows, her W and E are her hard cc, and her R is to relocate champs away from key fights while her bonus tankiness is in the form of a shield on a new passive. The overall function of her kit is spread relatively evenly throughout all her moves. Well, the problem with her is that the package itself is wonky as shit. A large sum of her damage dealing is in one spell alone, so she feels as bursty as a juggernaut for the early and mid game, her overall potential for hard cc'ing key targets as a champ that's primarily a tank is all conditional, and thus if someone like Ahri isn't near a wall and she doesn't dash, she actually can't be hard cc'd outside of being stunned to be relocated by Poppy's charge (cause that's how relocation moves work, guys). Her ult doesn't allow for combos or follow-ups, but it doesn't do much damage either. Unlike the others where their power is improperly balanced in their overall play style, Poppy's kit as a whole, while properly balanced, is just fundamentally confused with what's actually desired in a tank's kit in League of Legends.

In conclusion: Poppy needs some sort of follow-up, but I can't even say what it should be. She's a tank that can't reliably hold people down, and that's a fundamental flaw in her design. If this was gonna be the case, she should have been designed as a fighter/tank, thus making her a juggernaut, and not a tank/fighter with all this cc with strings attached to it. Regardless, even though people are having fun with Poppy, and it shows in her usage despite her success in the Rift, she needs something to help with her team fighting, because that transition is the problem.

For the other reworks, if Riot ever gets back to them, the one thing I hope they learn from is that the overall value of the champ in question needs to be more evenly spread out in their kits. Every champ has their bread-and-butter, and that's fine. However, these champs are almost entirely defined by their bread-and-butter moves, save their ults. This is primarily where the frustration stems from when speaking to mains of these champs. It's not hard to see.

Any thoughts? Any Rioters wanna talk about any of these guys or anything I said in this thread?

56 Comments

MorganFreemanBot8 votes

I'm pretty sure the main difference is the scale of rework.

Poppy had a Sion level rework; where all the entire kit, save 1-2 bits was changed entirely, and even those two were shifted. Sion kept a shield he could detonate for damage and getting hp from last hitting things; poppy kept the ability to knock people back and stun them if they came into contact with a wall.

Other than that every single aspect of her kit changed dramatically, and is utterly unrecognizable from her old self. As such it's harder to complain about her because she's an entirely new champion, not a revamped / reworked older champion.

Champs like Morde and Sona had their kits changed extensively but most of the abilities remained identifiable, just had bits stripped away / added on / changed.

Lovely Pants1 votes

Also consider Karma's rework as a little more of a middle ground in how it was recieved. The biggest difference between Karma and some of these other half-way reworks is that she managed to gain enthusiastic new players even if old players made a lot of ruckus about her. This is probably because there are a few stronger tactile feedbacks in her kit.

Morde, Cass and Sona all have significantly more incremental kinds of effect outside of their ultimates and generally fail to offer any distinctive points of appeal that potential new players would not have already dismissed from their kits in the past, perhaps.

chipndip12 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lovely Pants,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=itVO8AmI,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2016-01-01T21:54:48.421+0000)

Also consider Karma's rework as a little more of a middle ground in how it was recieved. The biggest difference between Karma and some of these other half-way reworks is that she managed to gain enthusiastic new players even if old players made a lot of ruckus about her. This is probably because there are a few stronger tactile feedbacks in her kit.

Morde, Cass and Sona all have significantly more incremental kinds of effect outside of their ultimates and generally fail to offer any distinctive points of appeal that potential new players would not have already dismissed from their kits in the past, perhaps.

I was going to put Karma in this as well, but:

  • Her Q is her bread and butter
  • Her W holds people down to be hit by Q during laning. During team fights, her W holds down potential threats to her or her carry (not quickly, but it does)
  • Her E is a shield and a movement speed boost for either escaping or landing her W root
  • Her R amplifies the effectiveness of all of these things

The reason new players can get behind Karma is because her kit is a whole kit. It works together. If you keep spitting R+Q without rooting first, you don't get the full damage and it's easier to dodge. Also, her W has a .3 ap ratio 3 times, going up to .9, so using the full combo adds up to good damage when building damage. Her E and R+E is her main move for team-wide utility when played as support for both offense and defense. It's a far cry from what she apparently once was, but the whole kit does mesh together. The problem is that, since the W root takes a bit to go off, she can't reliably use her whole spell rotation, turning her into a Q bot, putting too much emphasis on Q. It's easy to get drawn to Karma because of her initial impressions, but it's not hard to drop her due to what the experience adds up to, based on my experience with Karma.

Lovely Pants1 votes

Think I'm going to have to unpack what you mean by having a "complete kit" cause I don't quite agree with the connotation it has when you're talking about these champions. I'd argue against the idea of kit synergy as an intrinsically appealing quality for a champion. True synergy is essentially what creates these one-note champions.

On the contrary, I think the reason Karma is somewhat more successful is because her kit, old and new, offers a variety of options that work towards a particular role. Her w and q for example can be used as flexible zoning tools outside of any combination they have with each other. Having some ambiguity over strategic combination of these abilities adds depth to the character rather than being an impediment to mastery of her, I feel.

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lovely Pants,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=itVO8AmI,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-02T00:09:30.377+0000)

Think I'm going to have to unpack what you mean by having a "complete kit" cause I don't quite agree with the connotation it has when you're talking about these champions. I'd argue against the idea of kit synergy as an intrinsically appealing quality for a champion. True synergy is essentially what creates these one-note champions.

On the contrary, I think the reason Karma is somewhat more successful is because her kit, old and new, offers a variety of options that work towards a particular role. Her w and q for example can be used as flexible zoning tools outside of any combination they have with each other. Having some ambiguity over strategic combination of these abilities adds depth to the character rather than being an impediment to mastery of her, I feel.

Sona is the one I know the best, so let's look at her for a bit:

Q: Some damage

W: A heal/shield

E: AOE movement speed

R: AOE Stun in a line

Basically, seeing how most would agree Sona is primarily defined by her Q, in any situation where Sona's Q doesn't get the job done, what does she have left? The reason why Sona's stronger now is because Windspeaker's gave her a decent boost in her W's utility, but in season 5, it was literally nothing. She either kept the enemy at arm's length with Q all game or she died trying. If your whole kit doesn't have some functional things to do, the whole champ becomes binary and unfun because they boil down to "Did my bread and butter work?". Other champs have multiple options for multiple situations because each skill properly supports their kit and preps them for different scenarios without being so independent that it feels tacked on or irrelevant to the champ's play pattern.

What I'm trying to get across is that if you look at someone like Ekko or Tahm or Braum, you have multiple ways to use multiple spells to be useful. The three reworks I mentioned? You're pretty much summed up to a spell and an ult, Sona less so since Windspeaker's makes her W worth a damn now, but Mord and Cass still have this issue severely. Did you land Mord's Ace of Spades? No? Oh well. Did you get your Cass machine gun going? No? Aw, shucks. Did you win a team fight with Cass? You probably gunned down 2 or 3 people. Being this binary is a problem with satisfaction when playing these champs from what I've seen.

Although, what you said about Karma is basically another vantage point viewing the same overall concept.

Lovely Pants1 votes

Sona is a bit different than the other two. To clarify a little, the point of my first reply I was trying to get across was mainly that these champions lacked as many distinctive high points to make them appealing to new blood and satisfy some of the old blood (and to respond to that other part of your reply on Karma, I think that initial appeal is going to matter more than whatever theoretical long-term plateau you might hit even if that were true)

Sona is more of the opposite extreme of kit focus adding up to a similar result. The other two are almost exclusively damage focused, with their abilities mostly funneling down to allow them to apply damage in one way. Sona, on the other hand, is an exteme generalist. Even if you say her power chord is her greatest point of her identity, I'm going to say that it's a fairly weak point of unique feeling for the champion. One of the most common defenses I hear from "don't nerf Sona!" threads is that her strong Q doesn't even do anything special compared to any poke mage. And sure, that's said in an attempt to downplay her strengths for the sake of that debate, perhaps, but it's still a kind of painful thing for that to be such a prevalent argument among players that like the champion.

Not discounting that you can like a champion for all of the additive effects rather than a few more readable points of uniqueness, but back to the point of this thread, my argument is more that these all of these reworks come across tepid for individual reasons of lacking strong distinctive appeals to regain a player base while diminishing the nuanced attachments of the former players.

chipndip12 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lovely Pants,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=itVO8AmI,comment-id=000500000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-02T05:30:51.659+0000)

Sona is a bit different than the other two. To clarify a little, the point of my first reply I was trying to get across was mainly that these champions lacked as many distinctive high points to make them appealing to new blood and satisfy some of the old blood (and to respond to that other part of your reply on Karma, I think that initial appeal is going to matter more than whatever theoretical long-term plateau you might hit even if that were true)

Sona is more of the opposite extreme of kit focus adding up to a similar result. The other two are almost exclusively damage focused, with their abilities mostly funneling down to allow them to apply damage in one way. Sona, on the other hand, is an exteme generalist. Even if you say her power chord is her greatest point of her identity, I'm going to say that it's a fairly weak point of unique feeling for the champion. One of the most common defenses I hear from "don't nerf Sona!" threads is that her strong Q doesn't even do anything special compared to any poke mage. And sure, that's said in an attempt to downplay her strengths for the sake of that debate, perhaps, but it's still a kind of painful thing for that to be such a prevalent argument among players that like the champion.

Not discounting that you can like a champion for all of the additive effects rather than a few more readable points of uniqueness, but back to the point of this thread, my argument is more that these all of these reworks come across tepid for individual reasons of lacking strong distinctive appeals to regain a player base while diminishing the nuanced attachments of the former players.

Well, about that point:

Sona is a generalist, but when it comes to what she's shoe-horned into, you HAVE to build ap because she has nothing in her kit, save her R, that does anything of real significance in and of themselves. The shield and the speed up...do things...but her play pattern doesn't sway one way or the other because of it. You clump up and hit a button. If that doesn't work...tough. And that's all her moves. Clump up and hit Q. Clump up and hit W. Clump up and hit E. She can't assess much of anything because her kit isn't built to deal with much of anything. She just cowers and hopes her opponent doesn't know how to fight Sona properly with their champ. Without ap, basically everything in her kit would fall off due to her values being so low, which is why they build heavy ap so they don't, which is why people think she does damage when she actually doesn't in comparison to nearly anyone else (it's just reliable and all front-loaded into one button so you see all her damage at the same time, but it's never going to out-damage a full rotation).

Like I said, Windspeaker's helped on this front now that it made her heal worth a damn, so if you actually use it properly, the heal, shield, and defense bonuses together can actually keep people fighting a good bit longer, but the overall discontent in her kit from those laning against her complaining that her Q is too annoying and those playing her wishing she could do anything besides playing so heavily into her Q comes from the same place: Sona as a champ is defined too much by her playing into her Q.

Lovely Pants1 votes

I mean, the problem with Sona's appeal right there is that you're telling me the rest of her kit does nothing at all, but I know that's exaggeration from playing as and against her. Her whole kit gives extended trading power.

Let me put it like this. The other abilities are in pretty much every situation useful, but not impactful. Healing is always useful, movement speed is always useful, but as you say Sona's own play doesn't alter much for having incrementally powerful abilities. You almost never need to make a choice that's going to noticeably have made a difference in moments of intense action, outside of your ultimate.

The other powerchord effects are also unsatisfying to register, even if they might situationally be the better choice than her q's every now and then.

And what all this boils down to is that you can't just mildly readjust much of anything Sona has and leave players with a sense of satisfaction, regardless of what it means for game health. They aren't going to value the gains in one unimpactful area, they're only going to feel the pain of losing more of what they had.

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lovely Pants,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=itVO8AmI,comment-id=00050000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-02T14:52:33.910+0000)

I mean, the problem with Sona's appeal right there is that you're telling me the rest of her kit does nothing at all, but I know that's exaggeration from playing as and against her. Her whole kit gives extended trading power.

Let me put it like this. The other abilities are in pretty much every situation useful, but not impactful. Healing is always useful, movement speed is always useful, but as you say Sona's own play doesn't alter much for having incrementally powerful abilities. You almost never need to make a choice that's going to noticeably have made a difference in moments of intense action, outside of your ultimate.

The other powerchord effects are also unsatisfying to register, even if they might situationally be the better choice than her q's every now and then.

And what all this boils down to is that you can't just mildly readjust much of anything Sona has and leave players with a sense of satisfaction, regardless of what it means for game health. They aren't going to value the gains in one unimpactful area, they're only going to feel the pain of losing more of what they had.

Like I've been saying, the new masteries, as well as the build she commonly builds now, helps to alleviate the issues behind the effectiveness of Sona's utility. That's why I said "Sona less so than the others". In season 5, in which I played 500 games of Sona, this was usually not the case. I was pretty much an independent variable that my opponents had to respond to correctly, unable to make any significant changes to most situations. If they did, I lost. If they didn't, I won. Luckily Sona was so low-key back then that I was able to win more often than lose by a decent margin.

But, regardless, your second paragraph pretty much puts what I've been saying into clearer words. Healing/shielding/movement buffs are always useful, but they're things you throw into a match and...that's that. You can't really change up what you're doing based on her W or E, so her play pattern basically boils down to "Poke with Q and sustain this with W and E". It never changes. It doesn't do anything different. You're basically stuck in one specific pattern of play, and if it doesn't work out, you're literally done for. This is why we see Sona's most popular builds boil down to mid-laner builds in a support role. The mentality is entirely "Build ap and slam them with Q. Use W and E to sustain this play pattern".

If we look at someone like Cass or Mord, they're the most extreme cases and it's blatantly obvious what's wrong with their game play in this regard. Cass is entirely "Land some poison and machine gun E them". If this doesn't work out, she literally has nothing else. Mord boils down to "Hopefully slam them with three Q's". If he can't hold them still for 3 Q's, what else does he have? Worst part is that he has no real tools for independently catching targets for himself like other juggernaut champs.

Meep Man1 votes

One-note champions are better than "One-ability" champions, where the entire kit is warped because of the strength of one ability. One combo champions are fine, especially if the combo isn't NEEDED. It's what makes the champion predictable enough to play against ND easy enough to play so that anyone can play them. Adding more combos is fine, but that just increases champion difficulty and readability. Meanwhile "one-ability" champions essentially become "Can you deal with me? Yes? I'm probably screwed. No? You are probably screwed." Champions with combos rely on multiple things going right to accomplish their full potential. Due to items, they can then build to complex this combo or make it easier to perform, like any champion can be.

TL;DR "One-note"/"One combo" champions are WAY better than "One ability" champions. Fantasies need to be defined by the entire kit, not just one ability. This is why Sion is so good, because his entire kit screams his identity and play style AND synergizes together so that it isn't a kit built around one ability AKA a warped kit.

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=itVO8AmI,comment-id=00050000000000000001,timestamp=2016-01-05T19:02:04.789+0000)

One-note champions are better than "One-ability" champions, where the entire kit is warped because of the strength of one ability. One combo champions are fine, especially if the combo isn't NEEDED. It's what makes the champion predictable enough to play against ND easy enough to play so that anyone can play them. Adding more combos is fine, but that just increases champion difficulty and readability. Meanwhile "one-ability" champions essentially become "Can you deal with me? Yes? I'm probably screwed. No? You are probably screwed." Champions with combos rely on multiple things going right to accomplish their full potential. Due to items, they can then build to complex this combo or make it easier to perform, like any champion can be.

TL;DR "One-note"/"One combo" champions are WAY better than "One ability" champions. Fantasies need to be defined by the entire kit, not just one ability. This is why Sion is so good, because his entire kit screams his identity and play style AND synergizes together so that it isn't a kit built around one ability AKA a warped kit.

You know, you basically condensed a good deal of this thread into one manageable post. Thanks for that.

junglerboy164 votes

Actually, I don't see any of the kit conflict you're talking about in Poppy. Early game she serves as a hybrid disengage/pick tank, either keeping her allies safe or isolating enemies for her and her allies to murder. As the game goes on and her damage scales back, she turns more directly into a disengage tank, and fits that perfectly. Nobody can dash into her team reliably, and once they get in, she either CCs them down or knocks them back home. Her kit isn't bad, it is just the first of its kind. The closest thing to her right now would be someone like Alistar, who is both a hyper defensive pick and also an aggressive engage tank. She doesn't struggle with not being able to reliably hold people down, her E is targeted and regardless of whether she lands the stun or not she is able to land the knockback (if you don't hit it when you click on someone, then it's a bug).

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Actually, I don't see any of the kit conflict you're talking about in Poppy. Early game she serves as a hybrid disengage/pick tank, either keeping her allies safe or isolating enemies for her and her allies to murder. As the game goes on and her damage scales back, she turns more directly into a disengage tank, and fits that perfectly. Nobody can dash into her team reliably, and once they get in, she either CCs them down or knocks them back home. Her kit isn't bad, it is just the first of its kind. The closest thing to her right now would be someone like Alistar, who is both a hyper defensive pick and also an aggressive engage tank. She doesn't struggle with not being able to reliably hold people down, her E is targeted and regardless of whether she lands the stun or not she is able to land the knockback (if you don't hit it when you click on someone, then it's a bug).

Making your own definitions for what she is based on what she does doesn't make her kit any more or any valuable in the game as a whole. ANY tank can help engage or disengage. However, Poppy doesn't do well on engaging at all. As far as value in this game goes, that automatically puts her down a couple of notches.

Her E doesn't hold people down without a wall. Other tanks like Maoki and Amumu can keep key targets in place. Even juggernauts like Garen or Volibear can straight up kill you if they catch you. Poppy can't reliably kill someone alone in a team fighting scenario when the game goes on longer, and she still can't hold targets down for others to do it for her unless they dash in her W or they get rammed into a wall. This means her team has no way to engage off of her, even though she's the team tank. As far as this game goes, and what is or isn't valuable to a team comp, that's a huge design flaw.

junglerboy162 votes

I'm not making new definitions, I'm saying she fits a unique combination of preexisting roles.

First, if you think she is bad at engaging, then you simply lack skill on her. I played her a lot before the rework so her engage pattern is very familiar to me, and she is both excellent at it and very easy to use. You simply ult someone on their team to get an easy advantage and then use W to position for an E stun. She's not some sort of engage powerhouse like Malphite, but neither are many other tanks in the game. She is on par with at least Alistar's engage strength while offering the best disengage that the game currently has to offer.

Her E doesn't have to "hold people down" to be effective, and you're either close-minded or ignorant of game mechanics if you think its only useful for the stun. The enemy she hits is disabled for the length of the dash. She can peel anyone she wants equally effectively with her E, the stun is just a bonus.

One of the things that makes me think more and more you haven't actually played Poppy (because you definitely haven't played her on this account) is you keep saying her W is only useful if someone dashes into her. If you actually knew how she works, you'd know that her W keeps you from dashing AWAY too. It's a strong engage tool all on its own.

Basically, the flaw in your thought process is that you assume A: A tank is only good if they can keep people hard CCed, and B: A tank must have hard engage to be useful. You main squishy carries and carry supports and clearly have almost no concept of how tanks and fighters work. Poppy is designed primarily to peel, secondarily engage, and lastly as a damage dealer. She is incredibly effective as a champion and you don't understand that because you don't play her or champs like her.

Captain Aishi3 votes

currently the champion that i would compare poppy to the most would be Galio, in a sense that they are the two champions you want on your team if you want to make the enemy never know how to hard engage correctly on your team

she strikes me mostly as an anti-dive champion perfectly suited for poke comps (it's just that poke champions in general have fallen out of favor in the recent meta so that could partially explain her average winrates)

Quepha4 votes

If players like Poppy despite her poor winrate that means all she needs are slight numbers buffs to make her not bad. That's basically the perfect spot for a champion to be: players like them even when they aren't OP.

CASS REWORK WHEN?

Meep Man1 votes

This is exactly what a good champion is. Sion and Poppy are great champions.

Pika3104 votes

In regards to Sona, you're slightly mistaken in your analysis. Her "rework"(gutting) REMOVED power from her Q, she does A LOT less damage now than pre-4.13. It just so happens that they also removed MORE power from the rest of her kit and so now anyone troll enough to actually pick her is forced to put 100% focus on the part that was affected the least badly by nerfs. Technically speaking, Celerity actually has a higher reward-per-cast than Hymn, but Celerity is such a shitty spell that it doesn't matter.

In general, every single part of Sona's entire kit received nerfs in that patch, several of which were shadow nerfs. It's common knowledge that Sona is the weakest support in the game, winrates are not a direct reflection of a champion's viability. If they were, LB and Yas wouldn't have received nerfs when they were sporting winrates below 45%.

This all goes to show that Rito's current "balance" team puts literally zero effort into their work and makes changes to this game based completely around their own biases.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

In regards to Sona, you're slightly mistaken in your analysis. Her "rework"(gutting) REMOVED power from her Q, she does A LOT less damage now than pre-4.13. It just so happens that they also removed MORE power from the rest of her kit and so now anyone troll enough to actually pick her is forced to put 100% focus on the part that was affected the least badly by nerfs. Technically speaking, Celerity actually has a higher reward-per-cast than Hymn, but Celerity is such a shitty spell that it doesn't matter.

In general, every single part of Sona's entire kit received nerfs in that patch, several of which were shadow nerfs. It's common knowledge that Sona is the weakest support in the game, winrates are not a direct reflection of a champion's viability. If they were, LB and Yas wouldn't have received nerfs when they were sporting winrates below 45%.

This all goes to show that Rito's current "balance" team puts literally zero effort into their work and makes changes to this game based completely around their own biases.

Pika...when a champ hits a 6-7 percent play rate and a 54% win rate in Plat+...I don't think this line of logic holds up. We could talk about Sona until the sky turns magenta, but as of right now, she's doing way better than you give credit for. This isn't season 5.

Besides, the point is that Sona's play pattern revolves too much around Q. It has nothing to do with anything else.

Pika3104 votes

{quoted}

Pika...when a champ hits a 6-7 percent play rate and a 54% win rate in Plat+...I don't think this line of logic holds up. We could talk about Sona until the sky turns magenta, but as of right now, she's doing way better than you give credit for. This isn't season 5.

Besides, the point is that Sona's play pattern revolves too much around Q. It has nothing to do with anything else.

So you're blatantly choosing to ignore that winrate has no direct correlation to viability? How about you consider this: Sona's winrate without Lich Bane falls to around 47%. Are you sure it's Sona do well, or is it Lich Bane doing well? Are you sure you're not intentionally misplacing credit where it isn't due?

You're also choosing to ignore WHY her pattern is forced to revolve around Hymn. It's largely due to the fact she's a walking Lich Bane with no real kit, but as I already said Celerity is a useless 1-point spell and Aria with less than a 3% return comparatively to pre-4.13 is possibly the weakest spell in the entire game. These are accentuated by the fact Fearless intentionally ruined her cooldowns, despite player outrage. Hymn with the lowest cooldown skews decision-making and makes players OBLIGATED to use Staccato because it has the highest up-time and they can't afford waiting to choose a different Power Chord mid-fight. All this despite Staccato's TWO unjustified nerfs.

chipndip12 votes

{quoted}

So you're blatantly choosing to ignore that winrate has no direct correlation to viability? How about you consider this: Sona's winrate without Lich Bane falls to around 47%. Are you sure it's Sona do well, or is it Lich Bane doing well? Are you sure you're not intentionally misplacing credit where it isn't due?

You're also choosing to ignore WHY her pattern is forced to revolve around Hymn. It's largely due to the fact she's a walking Lich Bane with no real kit, but as I already said Celerity is a useless 1-point spell and Aria with less than a 3% return comparatively to pre-4.13 is possibly the weakest spell in the entire game. These are accentuated by the fact Fearless intentionally ruined her cooldowns, despite player outrage. Hymn with the lowest cooldown skews decision-making and makes players OBLIGATED to use Staccato because it has the highest up-time and they can't afford waiting to choose a different Power Chord mid-fight. All this despite Staccato's TWO unjustified nerfs.

When we were complaining before now, the notion was "Win rate while disregarding play rate has no merit in relation to viability". You can't just straight up dismiss win rate AND play rate. Her play rate's healthy now (finally after a full season). Her win rate improved even though her play rate doubled from 3 to 6 percent. Now, I understand that this doesn't have to do with anything in her kit, and it's only the game environment that's holding her kit up for the time being. I also believe she needs another rework so her being good or bad is more due to her kit and less due to just stacking favorable numbers that happen to be lying around in the game. Still, as it stands now, blindly throwing stones at Riot any time Sona's name is mentioned is simply toxic behavior. Save your stones for when they do something stupid, like nerf Sona again (I honestly feel it coming).

With that said, I only said "Her game play revolves around Q". I don't have to say why. The point isn't why. The point is that it is. I was making comparisons and observations that could hopefully be useful later down the road. I wasn't here to rally people into a Riot hate militia.

Pika3104 votes

{quoted}

With that said, I only said "Her game play revolves around Q". I don't have to say why. The point isn't why. The point is that it is.

So you want to state something, but you don't want to discuss the "why." That's called propaganda and it's intentionally misleading. Without the "why," people that read it will immediately jump to false assumptions, but it sounds like that's exactly what you want them to do. Without discussing the "why," people will have difficulty understanding what the true problem that led up to this is and what NEEDS to happen to correct it.

The very point of a forum is discussion, yet you've just publicly said you just want to say things without discussing them. This is not a dictatorship, if you post disinformation you shouldn't be surprised when someone like myself comes and disproves what you're saying.

chipndip12 votes

{quoted}

So you want to state something, but you don't want to discuss the "why." That's called propaganda and it's intentionally misleading. Without the "why," people that read it will immediately jump to false assumptions, but it sounds like that's exactly what you want them to do. Without discussing the "why," people will have difficulty understanding what the true problem that led up to this is and what NEEDS to happen to correct it.

The very point of a forum is discussion, yet you've just publicly said you just want to say things without discussing them. This is not a dictatorship, if you post disinformation you shouldn't be surprised when someone like myself comes and disproves what you're saying.

Pika...THERE IS NO POST TO MAKE ASSUMPTIONS OFF OF. I'm not talking about the patch history of Sona, Mord, Cass, or Poppy in this thread. This is a thread on their current states, NOT their patch history. If I say "I'm in California", I don't have to tell you about my trip up to California. The point is that I'm in California. Thus, if I say "Hey, the problem I find in these champs is that their game play is too one note based on one ability with too little flexibility to play effectively around their other ones", I don't need to site Riot's nerfs and changes and buffs to the champs. The important part of the discussion is them right now, and making it so their other abilities have meaningful impact on their play patterns because they don't, regardless of changes made before this point, right now.

You seriously need to calm the hell down.

Pika3103 votes

If I say "I'm in California", I don't have to tell you about my trip up to California. The point is that I'm in California.

...and when someone asks you about your trip and you say "I don't have to tell you, you just need to know I'm here." That's anti-social. I'm trying to discuss your trip and you're spitting at me and saying it doesn't matter. Why mention it in the first place if you aren't willing to talk about it?

Grass is green. Why is the grass green?

Flamingos are pink. Why are flamingos pink?

Sona is bad. Why is Sona bad?

This is the difference between just being an observer and actually trying to understand what you're observing. We move forward as a species because the latter type of person exists. If we all were the former, we'd still be entertaining ourselves with wall paintings in clay huts.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

...and when someone asks you about your trip and you say "I don't have to tell you, you just need to know I'm here." That's anti-social. I'm trying to discuss your trip and you're spitting at me and saying it doesn't matter. Why mention it in the first place if you aren't willing to talk about it?

Grass is green. Why is the grass green?

Flamingos are pink. Why are flamingos pink?

Sona is bad. Why is Sona bad?

This is the difference between just being an observer and actually trying to understand what you're observing. We move forward as a species because the latter type of person exists. If we all were the former, we'd still be entertaining ourselves with wall paintings in clay huts.

This isn't the usual form of peer-to-peer conversation. We aren't right next to each other. We're on a forum. In forums, things are organized by subject. "On topic" in this post isn't "The patch history of X, Y, and Z". The topic is "I think Poppy's kit, even though I feel it's on the weaker side for having too many strings attached, captures what people ultimately enjoy in champion kits, and these problematic reworks that have been spoken to death about all share something in that they don't capture that thing, which is flexibility and a more even distribution of overall strength throughout the entirety of a champ's kit". I'm talking about how Sona's/Mord's/Cass's game play relies too much on one singular pattern of play, with no real alternatives to how you play them to tackle different scenarios. How we got to that point has literally no place in the conversation.

Stop using any thread that so much as mentions Sona in a game play or balancing sense as a platform to repeat the worn out phrase "Riot personally hates Sona".

And stop downvoting me with your alts.

Pika3102 votes

All your hate speech aside; despite claiming you don't want to discuss this or go further in-depth into analyzing the actual problem, you just did so. Rather than making all these excuses, accusations and attack posts, you could have saved yourself the trouble and done so from the beginning. Unless you have some sort of vendetta to play out.

Robbit Mang3 votes

imo Poppys kit is very good, it's just that it transitions out of laning/jungling so badly, and her only purpose in teamfights is take damage and disengage. don't forget that the GP rework shifted ALL of his power to E as well.

for example, other tank champions like shen and rammus or gnar have teamfight winning stuns or taunts, poppy MIGHT land one stun on one person IF theyre on a wall. Poppys whole anti dash ability sounds great in theory, but in practice its VERY easy to just work around as well.

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Robbit Mang,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=itVO8AmI,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-01-01T18:55:32.584+0000) other tank champions like shen and rammus or gnar have teamfight winning stuns or taunts, poppy MIGHT land one stun on one person IF theyre on a wall. Poppys whole anti dash ability sounds great in theory, but in practice its VERY easy to just work around as well.

This is basically the point of the Poppy part of the post. The kit sounds good on paper, and since it's balanced out the way it is, people feel good playing it. Early game you get kills, and late game you transition to team helper. The problem is that the "team helper" part is really bad right now.

Sohleks3 votes

Here me out but Poppy is fine as is! Probably the most balanced most successful release that year. Her winrate is wonky for several reasons which ultimately are not relevant in consideration of her success as a power pick or healthy addition to league.

• First off she's extremely accessible for 450 ip. This means lots more people trying her half-assed unsure what they should be doing.

• Second is she's a completely opposite champion as to what she was before her rework. Before she was a dive-carry assassin who primarirly built damage. She had free almost invulnerability and unpeelability... Now she is a tactful frontline battlefield control champion who primarily builds tank (and still packs a whallop with her combo). Her offensive ratios are limp, but her base damage and utility is more than solid. This leads to everyone including her old mains and new players to playing her wrong until they adapt to what they see works.

• Third is you're kinda right about her kit not closing itself off as a complete harmonious ... mmm, I'm gonna say weapon. But this is a good thing! League needs more of these champions. If all champions self fulfilled themselves... it's not very fulfilling. This game is supposed to be squad based combat. Poppy's kit sorta comes together just because of the shear number of different kinds of disruption she can do. She doesn't do one thing great but overall her kit is loaded. There are champions perfectly weaponized to do a certain role or attack but not all 130 of em can be that perfectly specialized and say we have a good well designed diverse roster. So Poppy is an excellent addition to the game as fighter/tank hybrid.

Trust me really good poppy players are very valuable to the team. She doesn't provide overpowering offensive in the form of damage or hard CC. The utility though of her W and R in addition to the reliability of her disruption (because she's so stoic and mostly point and click) brings her to a consistently valuable place to a high level teamcomp. She's currently a contested pick in challenger, and I'll be absolutely shocked if she doesn't make an appearance in the jungle coming the beginning of this season. Following this, people will learn how to play her, trust her, and commit to her, and her winrate will spike. Then in several months after many complaints on this boards she'll probably get nerfed. lol~

So to me because Poppy is fun (proven by her pick rate), useful, unique, and valuable if used to good effect says to me she's the most successful champion rework in a long long time. She might need small numbers tweaks but her kit is beautiful and is not the issue. If anything her kit is a little bit of powercreep because it brings a few new tricks (W, & R) but I love the new Poppy.

Shahamut1 votes

I think the only thing Poppy needs is for her ult to not make targets untargetable if used to knock them straight up. If I am using it to combo/kill you, it should be a normal pop up. Just my opinion.

Penns2 votes

Arent the win rates on that site from like the first few days of 5.24? Poppy is pretty "op" from what Ive seen, you should give it some time lol

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Arent the win rates on that site from like the first few days of 5.24? Poppy is pretty "op" from what Ive seen, you should give it some time lol

She's been at the bottom of the win rates there ever since I can remember. She's never moved up and has never been higher.

Queen Cassiopeia2 votes

Her whole kit was designd around her passiv. She had a spamm Style in her kit which was only allowed because her manacost got lowerd due her passiv.

This made her a good early&Mid Kite&Poke Mage while still beeing viable in the lategame if she was good enough to land a few risky Q´s and had the perfect kiting skills to outplay opponents in the lategame.

That made her a really fun but difficult champion to learn with a completly unique kit.

Cassiopeia mains were rare but were a highly respected playerbase due them having to practice way more then other Champs because they had to learn how to kite a ADC with 2.0 Attackspeed while still landing all of her skillshots like a mage.


The Rework was there to limit her early Poke and Midgame powerspike and push it more into the lategame while giving her stacks that increased her lategame dmg and lowerd her early pressure.


What went wrong?

They shifted 90% of her Dmg onto her E and took a gigantic chunk out of her Q and W importance.

They deleted her Mana-Management Passiv which allowd a good Cassiopeia Main to control her manacosts.


What did the Playerbase of Cassiopeia mains liked about her?

Her early&Midgame Power, her unique Lane-Control with her Poisons and for the high skilled Players her lategame kiting potential.


The Rework was a big fail. The whole Cass Community hates her rework until today. The Dev´s are saying that the Cassiopeia Rework was a failure too.

The Reworks were directed to outdated Champions with outdated kits, which Cassiopeia´s kit wasnt. They reworked only half of her Kit because the Dev´s had no real idea about her and still after a gigantic wave of negativ feedback pushed it live.

They tryd to buff her with numbers which "worked" but only in Winrate because she had unbalanced numbers. Even with a 54% Winrate the Playerbase was still angry, not because the Champ wasnt powerfull enough... no... they didnt like what they did to the Gameplay-feeling that they changed.

The Passiv feels really boring. Because of the missing Manacost Passiv, she goes OOM with her new only E priorized style REALLY quickly.

She has BY FAR the most linear Itembuild, which was forced by the Passiv. lets have a look at that shall we?

OK!

  1. You need to have at least 1 Manapool Item -> Pick One -> ( item 3027 / item 3040 )
  2. Because of the nerfed AP Ratios and her % AP buffing Passiv you need to get item 3089 (which´s interactions-math with 500Stacks got also nerfed )
  3. Like almost every Mage and exspecially a "Late Game" Champ like reworked Cass needs item 3135
  4. item 3116 because of the CD nerfs to W after the rework to be able to kite effectivly
  5. item 3020 Everyone needs Boots and it helps you in the earlygame with flat pen and MS for kiting,chasing and dodging.
  6. This is the only "Free" Item-Slot but you have to use it based on the Enemy-Team sadly. Against High HP Tanks -> item 3151 Against Heavy AP Dmg -> item 3001 Against Heavy AD Dmg -> item 3157

When before the Rework you had a large amount of possible Items which all worked in different ways.

Fun Fact -> Statistics show that a Cassiopeia gains roughly 12k Gold in a Game which is a really low amount because that means she is only able to finish 3 Full items and her Boots, which means most of the time she cant even get to her "Powerspike" which raises her Winration btw after 40+ Minutes to a flipping 50,25% - 50,50% which shows that her "OP Lategame" has almost no influence at all.


So, what do we have today?

  1. A boring Kit ( playing as and playing against ) which focuses only on one On-Hit Spam Spell.
  2. Two timers which work together and are gates based on how soon you hit 500 Stacks and have your full Items, which is even harder because of the latest changes that end games around 10-15 minutes earlier.
  3. An extremely fragile Early&Mid for the exchange of a "good" late when your Team peels you enough and carrys you trough the first 25 minutes.
  4. Being called a "noob spam no skill" Champ... when before the update she was one of the most skillfull champs in the whole game.
  5. 46% Winrate which is continuously falling after all the nerfs although having the biggest amount of Scripters out of all Champs which distorts the number positively, making the true number even far worse.
  6. A Kit which completely revolves around her "Late Game Powerspike" which like already said, puts her on a 50,25% Winrate after the 40min+ mark, which clearly shows that it has a way to little impact for an unforgiving 40mins.

The Devs says that Cassiopeia was only a half-reworked because they had no idea how to complete it. Her 1 Side is her unfitting Passiv and the other one are her classic Spells.

The Rework got Cassiopeia almost no new Players, lost her a gigantic mass of her Mains she used to have, has a Kit which is anoying to play and anoying to play against AND while having an annoying Gameplay for both sides, no Playerbase she even has a dreadfull low Winratio.

If you want to test it yourself, search for the 50-100 Last Threads about Cassiopeia. They are only about Rework ideas because she´s just a bad champ right now.

It would be the best for her that her reworks gets reverted until they have a more thought trough Rework which, she really doesnt need anyways. And maybe, they use someone who doesn´t ignore all the feedback and then wents missing for 6 MONTHS . Which was extremely disrespectfull.

The Sword Saint2 votes

Poppy is a peel tank not an initiator, with some ability to set up or capitlize on a pick, but she is primarily designed as a bodyguard rather than to jump in malphite style and start a teamfight by locking down a high priority target.

She's for keeping the rengars aff of your adcs and control mages, for making it difficult for enemies to contest an objective that your team has already started, for preventing towerdives during a seige. She's not a traditional diving tank and thats the mistake people are making when they say stuff like 'she can't pin down an ahri' as if she was supposed to be able to lock down a mobile enemy who is fleeing a fight. She's not vi, that's not her job. her job is to throw up a w when the enemy ahri tries to dash in and charm your carry and then wall stun her if the opening is there to prevent her from making her assassination play. If darius flashes in or otherwise manages to flank your carries, her job is to ult him over 4 walls and put him out of the fight, not to try and duel him.

feed Skaarl1 votes

champion.gg updates their stats once per patch, It's useless. Check http://www.leagueofgraphs.com for proper stats.

Poppy is 50% in plat+ and 50.9% in diamond+ http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/poppy/platinum

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Eren Akker,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=itVO8AmI,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-01-01T19:57:30.738+0000)

champion.gg updates their stats once per patch, It's useless. Check http://www.leagueofgraphs.com for proper stats.

Poppy is 50% in plat+ and 50.9% in diamond+ http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/poppy/platinum

Thanks. I bookmarked the page you linked.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

So, first of all, her lolking win rate doesn't look bad. So I don't know where you are getting your info, but even a single link would help make that point. I don't buy it just on principle.

Next, I think you are over-simplifying the way that the community analyzes reworks. It isn't about where the power is, necessarily, it's about the champion's fantasy and how they fulfill it.

Cass, specifically, comes to mind, because her "poison mage" identity got stripped away. Sona had a lot of her passive aura power removed, which people hated. That aura mentality seemed to fit the peaceful mute, and now it's more active. They don't think it fits Sona as well. Morde players seem torn about which fantasy they want him to fulfill, but all seem to agree that Riot didn't hit it. I would say that's more the problem than their skill impact or win rates.

So, Poppy's rework is accepted widely because we all agree that it fits Poppy, for the most part. Even if she's a bit weak on the numbers side, people like how her kit works. You seem, largely, to be complaining about damage... on a tank. I don't get it. We don't complain about Alistar's damage when he builds tank... And on that note, I've seen a ghostblade Poppy do WORK.

So, I'm not sure that I agree with your assessment at all. Poppy looks fine to a lot of people; she isn't op, and she isn't pick/ban, and her style doesn't fit a lot of players. But that's okay, because there are over 100 other champs to play. We WANT the champs to feel distinct and be different from each other, while successfully fulfilling their own theme. Poppy achieves that on both fronts, so people aren't going to complain in a widespread manner about her.

LF Annie1 votes

here is that negativity bias i was talking about.

i hate the new poppy,

not because her kit is weak, because it isn't, but they ruined who poppy WAS.

she was the small front line diver, not the back line peeler. and the transition of her play identity has left a very bad taste in my mouth.

i got great satisfaction from being the small guy not afraid to dive in, not so much about being the small peel bot.

i liked the david/goliath feel.

Slamurai Jack2 votes

There was no way that playstyle was going to stay and feel remotely satisfying compared to how she was before: the invincible late game anti-carry that dives in 1v5 and kills 2-3 people. It would basically be a downgrade in the guise of a rework. Imo, a change of role was needed, just like it was for Sion and how it likely will be needed for Rengar and Urgot in the future.

LF Annie1 votes

i have accepted the rework, i just like stating my discontent with the disconnect between who she was, and who she is.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

I hear you on that. She definitely got changed from the way she was played before, and whether or not that fantasy is better is mostly subjective. But that's a very different argument than the OP was making.

Do you think most people don't like her? You're one of the few I have heard that doesn't like the new Poppy.

LF Annie1 votes

i feel poppy is widely accepted, but the few people that actually liked poppy before have pretty much all stated discontent from the play style change.

but over-all the new poppy isn't bad, she just isn't the same poppy that existed for years.

riot will accept the discontent of the few, for the greater good of the many.

tbh i would have prob liked the poppy rework if i could be like lee and insec people into my team, rather than just throwing people away from it. it would have made me feel rewarded for choosing the signature poppy aggressive play style even if i cant 1v5 anticarry assassinate.

Axis the Dragon1 votes

You can still do Rambo Poppy

Fun fact: you can double tap R (I think it's double tap, maybe it's just tap once and let go) and it becomes a knockup instead of a knockback

Sure, they're untargetable, but it also means they aren't going anywhere

Dash (bonus points for wall hit), Q, double tap R, and by the time they come back down your Q is back, then use W so they can't dash out to keep wailing on them.

If you're not too far behind, you've severely dented most semi-tanky bruisers, and have practically one-shot squishies

kaltenashes1 votes

IMO poppy's too fresh to talk bout it, i'd say give her a month or two then we'll talk bout it

Shuvi1 votes

I may be biased since I've been playing poppy support since day 1 of her rework (rip now its meta though), but to be honest poppy works much better as a strong solo laning punisher support that transitions into catch potential/hyper peel later. Her solo lane is just subpar because shes mainly base damage, and as you said, has the issues you listed. As support you can still have a hard engage tank in top or the jungle. Her relying mainly on base damage and having a lot of utility honestly makes her perfect statwise and itemreliance wise as a support.

RaptorRitter131 votes

I think that poppy is AMAZING when put in the right scenarios. If she can get up against a team full of dashes: i.e. wu kong, ahri, tristana, Lucian, irelia... So on and so on, she can really do well for her team by disengaging the enemy teams hard engages and locking down that carry that keeps dashing away. Other than that specific team comp, I haven't found much great use for her. I usually only play her when I am near to last pick and see that enemy team is dash-heavy.

thumbnail91 votes

I wouldn't say they failed with her, but they dropped the ball pretty hard on finishing her up though. There are a few dialog lines that have no business being said by her character. Especially the one where you lock her in and shes like "pssh I'm no hero." At this point its not that she doesn't realize she's a hero or that she thinks she's not, she's straight up denying it. It kind of shit's on the fact that she can search for a hero for the hammer while growing a legend with the rumors spread by the people from her saving them. Then she can chase herself while not even knowing that she's chasing her self. You can do some work with this type of story line. The other one just seems way to forced

Second the kit rework was partly not what I wanted to see. Poppy was the only true anti carry in the game. Then they reworked her into a tanjugofitnerk, well they really didn't pick one class. There were two very clear design points they wanted to change on her: nerf her ultimate, and nerf her passive. Concept wise the old passive solidified her new "never give up theme" better then anything she has now. What's even better is they realized she couldn't function without it while removing it so they loaded her kit up to make her super tanky for free. Honestly 100% okay with this as long as she was still in the anti carry role.

Since they landed on her still having pretty much her passive they really murdered her damage. Poppy isn't gonna blow someone up in 2 hits anymore. There's no more charge Q dead. Hell there's not even crit crit dead anymore. There's tanjugofitnerk poppy though. They even added a little mini game to make it seem better and change up her laning phase. If anything this is where they should've just axed the shield aspect because they gave her a two handed mallet, you get one hammer long swing; boom real change. This is where Riot's need for counter play bites them in the ass constantly. They always find a way to take a fluid mechanic and destroy it. Then even though they axed the damage on her Q they gave that counter play as well. Now she's a real tanjugofitnerk boys. She won't anti carry anything. Also Poppy is not the champion for this type of ultimate it doesn't even fit conceptually and thematically. Looks cool doe, I will give it that. Bout the only thing she's missing is a heal.

Then they added the anti dash mechanic. This is a anti carries wet dream right here. Perfect, perfect for the role but all it does now is add even more to the dilemma that she's a tanjugofitnerk and they really didn't know what to do with her.

This is what I hate they had a completely unique concept of a hero but not hero and the role of an anti carry fit that perfectly. She takes a beating trying to find a hero but when it needs to get done she steps up and gets it done. You had it Rioto you freaking had the perfect set up for her. I like the rework of the model, like that they took the guys idea for ears, I can even like the hammer if you took away the shield. My favorite character in the god damn game and you miss hard at the end.

Skaarrjj1 votes

Her rework was done poorly. But you have the vocal minority of people that keep trying to defender her because she's "too new". IT's been a month. Poppy doesn't have high skillcap mechanics. She's a pretty bad champion as it is.

Feathermane1 votes

Poppy is frustrating: her Q range is too short, her W feels wasted if you don't stop a dash with it and the cooldown is too long to recover, her ult is unsatisfying because it can be interrupted so it's hard to get the maximum value and her passive will sometimes trick you because you want to chase somebody but you end up throwing your buckler and stopping. Proposed changes: can the passive, just keep the shield, Q range goes up, W discounts your cooldown if you fulfill a condition (hit a wall with E, hit both parts of your Q or w/e).

Kaeblen1 votes

Champion kits, both new releases and reworks, ultimately feel better to play when their whole kit synergizes and adds up to a game play style that makes sense for both laning and team fighting.

OK, I'm following you

Poppy's kit as a whole, while properly balanced, is just fundamentally confused with what's actually desired in a tank's kit in League of Legends.

Doesn't that mean... she's not a tank?

Poppy has some great tactical options, controlling what her enemies can and cannot do (W E R). Once she's actually in the middle of a fight, however, her options all come down to timing, rather than actuall decision. The trouble, like you mention, is that her enemies are able to easily recognize what Poppy wants to do, and merely respond by taking away that opportunity. They pick lower mobility champs, They hold their dashes until W runs out, They don't stand next to walls, and they are able to avoid the worst from her R in most situations. "You want me to X? OK, I just wont do that" Those decisions--those things her enemies can no longer do--don't seem to punish them very much.

you want some ideas for change... uh, ok, how about...

  • making W a toggle power would be a pretty drastic change, but would make the ability much more reliable.
  • better missle speed on R would be nice, though I don't know how much it would change.
  • lower CD on ult would be nice too.
  • E seems like its exactly where it was before the rework, and I've never seen someone complain about it besides you. even if it does take some forethought and positioning to work.

I don't really think Poppy needs another rework, I think her playstyle is just wildly different from what you expected. She demands a different kind of decision making. not "what will this do" or "can I accomplish it" but "would this actually be a good idea right now?"

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