Is Evelynn's perma-stealth even worth it anymore? Or should it simply not exist?

darkdill·Nov 30, 2014·18 votes·3,710 views

Evelynn gives up massive amounts of power for the ability to permanently sneak around and negate green wards from being used against her. Unfortunately, the payment she makes is far too high, and thus she is a bottom-tier Champion at this stage. S5 jungle is especially harsh on her because she can't clear more than 3 jungle camps before burning out and needing a recall, even with Ranger's Trailblazer.

Riot, perma-stealth might've been a novel idea at first, but it's clear that it simply cannot exist in League at this stage because it's too toxic. Either it completely snowballs, or it has no effect and turns the match into 4v5.

It'd probably be better if Evelynn got a new passive and Dark Frenzy instead let her stealth for short bouts like Kha'Zix's ultimate. There, now Evelynn can't map-sneak, but can be invisible in team fights when it matters.

36 Comments

RebonackDec 1, 201410 votes

Eve's passive is part of her current identity.

And her current identity is terrible.

Old Eve took finesse. There was and still is nothing in League quite like diving into the enemy team, killing or mauling a priory target, and then running the hell away only to stealth with a sliver of HP left, get healed up from your Ult, and then double-stun two half HP champions with Hate Spike and then rip their faces off.

The new Eve's identity amounted to Deathfire==>Ult==>E==> Trolol away until Riot crippled that with the E damage type change. They turned one of the most interesting, nuanced champions in the game into a ranged burst character. Because we totally don't have enough of those already. And now? Now Eve is just a mess with no direction in her kit.

No direction. No theme. And no lane to call her own.

Her present Innate lets her get by with not grabbing a sweeper for green wards and functions as a crappy gap-closer stand-in. That's it. It is not a particularly interesting mechanic. It is the thing that's stopping Eve from getting any meaningful work done on her and it needs to go rot in the ground with her other old Innate.

Mirage NightDec 1, 20141 votes

Eve's passive is part of her current identity.

And her current identity is terrible.

Old Eve took finesse. There was and still is nothing in League quite like diving into the enemy team, killing or mauling a priory target, and then running the hell away only to stealth with a sliver of HP left, get healed up from your Ult, and then double-stun two half HP champions with Hate Spike and then rip their faces off.

The new Eve's identity amounted to Deathfire==>Ult==>E==> Trolol away until Riot crippled that with the E damage type change. They turned one of the most interesting, nuanced champions in the game into a ranged burst character. Because we totally don't have enough of those already. And now? Now Eve is just a mess with no direction in her kit.

No direction. No theme. And no lane to call her own.

Her present Innate lets her get by with not grabbing a sweeper for green wards and functions as a crappy gap-closer stand-in. That's it. It is not a particularly interesting mechanic. It is the thing that's stopping Eve from getting any meaningful work done on her and it needs to go rot in the ground with her other old Innate.

^ This

RebonackDec 1, 20148 votes

I have made more or less this exact topic several times.

Give her three seconds of true stealth on her W active, a new Innate, and then buff/rework the rest of her kit as needed.

Her W is actually a pretty cool skill and adding three seconds of stealth to it would help to make her a super-slippery melee fighter.

5G8Nri0B54Dec 1, 20146 votes

With over 100 champions, the last thing we need is to normalize them and tone down what makes them actually different.

Evelynn's only issue right now is simply the lack of accessible means to deal with her.

More importantly, she is literally the only truly stealth champion around, you can hardly consider Twitch as one considering his' duration.

Because of this, Evelynn's unique style is really hard to truly adapt to because there is so little exposure to stealth to her extent.

SaiannaDec 1, 20146 votes

You all can downvote me as much as you want, but IMO old-old Evelynn was the best. SHE was the reason pink wards even existed. And only OP/toxic thing about old Eve was her stun on hitting targets from stealth.

She was different. She was awesome. And she's gone now..

Change stun perk -> slow or even 0.5s fear Leave current hate spike Change slightly her ult just so she can match current meta (in this case heavy nuke, as every assassin just simply needs it) Bring back old Nuke with 1.0 ap ratio Bring back old 1 min stealth (or at least 30 seconds)

And done.

RebonackDec 1, 20143 votes

You all can downvote me as much as you want, but IMO old-old Evelynn was the best. SHE was the reason pink wards even existed. And only OP/toxic thing about old Eve was her stun on hitting targets from stealth.

She was different. She was awesome. And she's gone now..

Change stun perk -> slow or even 0.5s fear Leave current hate spike Change slightly her ult just so she can match current meta (in this case heavy nuke, as every assassin just simply needs it) Bring back old Nuke with 1.0 ap ratio Bring back old 1 min stealth (or at least 30 seconds)

And done.

Frankly I would be fine if the brought back OLD Eve wholesale and just didn't give her back her stun on W. She would still be far more interesting than the present abomination wearing her head like a hat.

I bolded the part that was a terrible idea, especially considering it resets.

Because all those champions with short duration, spammable stealths are super OP, right? Unlike Vayne and Akali and Kha she would actually need to net a kill/assist in order to use it again after blowing it as a gap-closer to get into range.

FyshinaTuxNov 30, 20145 votes

Personally, I didn't like her stealth mechanic when they reworked her...

I'd greatly prefer having a button that I can hit that will make me invisible for a duration... Too bad that's never been done before...

Akali Khazix Rengar Shaco Twitch

WorgslargDec 1, 20145 votes

Simple. her passive makes her invisible to green wards, but not players.

Add 1-2 seconds of true stealth to her w, and she's good.

Thunder DreamssDec 1, 20142 votes

Given the radius in which she can be seen that's basically how she works now. She can't be seen by green wards or minions but you can see her before she's in range to actually hit you. If she was just strait up invisible to green wards and minions your suggestion would be a buff since right now she needs to avoid damage for several seconds before she goes invisible again.

WorgslargDec 1, 20141 votes

However, unlike live, she cannot simply sit in a lane and wait for the enemy to come forward.

Thunder DreamssDec 1, 20143 votes

I don't know what you're trying to say?

Are you saying that right now she can just sit there and you'll walk right by her? That takes careful maneuvering because if you get within 700 units of her you can see her. Generally the only way to get behind somebody in lane is to use the bushes. Anyone can use bushes to be hidden.

Grand ElevenDec 1, 20144 votes

I like her stealth mechanic ... I think it's a healthy balance from an experience perspective at least (gives her ability to roam while opponents a "chance" to see her before it's too late).

I do, however, agree she pays too heavy of a tax for it. She could use some straight up buffs, as I think time has proven it's not as imbalanced as Riot was afraid it might be,

2pudge1cupDec 1, 20142 votes

The problem has never been perma-stealth as a mechanic. Riot likes to scapegoat stealth in general as 'toxic' when the reality is that there aren't enough detection options. If players were given adequate tools to deal with stealth then stealth champs could be reasonably built in this game - even long duration stealth champs.

Skia AsteriDec 1, 20142 votes

The problem has never been perma-stealth as a mechanic. Riot likes to scapegoat stealth in general as 'toxic' when the reality is that there aren't enough detection options. If players were given adequate tools to deal with stealth then stealth champs could be reasonably built in this game - even long duration stealth champs.

It is true that there are not enough detection options; however, the problem with adding better options is doing so without making stealth worthless.

Lord MaliceDec 1, 20142 votes

Oracles Elixir was the item that worked for this, it gave you tru sight until you died, but then all you needed was an Oracle Elixir on a tanky Support and you could shut down all vision on the map.

darkdillDec 2, 20141 votes

Yep. Hence it was removed at the start of S4 and you now have Oracle Lens, which has a limited timer.

Mirage NightDec 1, 20142 votes

Overall her theme is disjointed, hence why even the VU is taking so long. Overall she is a mess of partially finished ideas. She really needs to looked at an give her a much better an cohesive design from top to bottom

I thin 1 thing can still be salvaged is an idea of a stealth mechanic that can be on her passive. Although the entire mechanism would be changed. I hope this can be done and use it as a basis for the rest of her kit.

RebonackDec 13, 20142 votes

I'm putting my money on her Q dealing bonus damage to monsters.

Because God forbid Eve doing damage to anything else.

Sonny1998Dec 1, 20141 votes

bump

RedPanndaDec 1, 20141 votes

Her passive should be reworked to make her not show up on the minimap. Then they could maybegive her back her good ult make her ult not complete shit.

TristyricDec 1, 20141 votes

I like Evelynn's Stealth mechanic personally (I played nearly a thousand games of eve mid even with the original nerf hammer taken to her ult ^^ those were good days) but with the changes to vision she was targeted for some super heavy nerfing that won't be remedied any time soon. Her perma-stealth is a nice unqiue feature to her that no one else has but in order for her to get her power back she'll need some form of counter-play. I feel like it should still exist but be tied to something, for example maybe she's stealthed after a certain period of continuous movement and visible (with a cooldown) if she stops or engages. Not specifically that but 'something' that brings up the player activity on Evelynn and makes her commit rather than hiding in plain sight.

AspynnDec 1, 20141 votes

I feel like perma stealth is quite unhealthy, but it has become part of Eve's identity, and changing that would be weird. I honestly have no idea where I personally would go with her kit, but I think her passive will and should stay, if at least with a few tweaks.

Tentacle LoveDec 1, 20141 votes

Her passive's fine when players are concerned, but it's the AI that needs reworks. As is right now, Evelynn has absolutely zero stealth versus AI opponents at all times. the second any yellow icon appears over any head, she's instantly destealthed and the AI will chase her with perfect vision, land skillshots without error, flash, ignite, smite, whatever, with 100% accuracy.

And this isn't just the bots.

If you run into the enemy base and a single minion trails after you, it will chase with perfect accuracy BEYOND the point at which you re-stealth. stealth means nothing to them and they cannot be deterred.

What's the point to stealth if you're going to be spotted 100% of the time no matter what? She doesn't have any abilities that even come close to the range where she gets spotted without error.

darkdillDec 1, 20141 votes

Not really relevant to the topic.

Tentacle LoveDec 1, 20142 votes

Not really relevant to the topic.

Why not? She has no stealth passive against bots/minions. And it's miserable.

SukishooDec 1, 20141 votes

Eve's passive is part of her current identity. They don't need to change that again... then she'd be even more lost then she already is. They could use to up her base damage that might help her in some aspects but other then that I find her alright if you know how to use her.

The only big thing that needs to be focused on where she is concerned is her VU and maybe tiny kit re-balances.

OleandervineDec 1, 20141 votes

I personally like Eve's passive as it is. The rest of her kit could use some number tweaking, but if and when they remake her, I hope her passive stays. It's unique to her and let's her stand out. There is a way to make it work, they merely have to put some elbow grease into it.

Teridax68Dec 1, 20141 votes

Evelynn being able to appear from literally anywhere is thematically awesome and I think can be worked with. The main problem with her right now is that there's not much about her you can outplay: item 2044 are useless against her, so her very existence forces you to either spend more money on item 2043 or play passively, and her main ways of dealing damage are autoattacks and her Q, neither of which are really avoidable once she gets in range. If she could get detected by green wards and had damage you could genuinely react to (aside from dashing out of range), then she'd be able to inflict a lot more damage overall and feel a lot more powerful.

Skia AsteriDec 2, 20141 votes

being able to appear from literally anywhere is thematically awesome and I think can be worked with. The main problem with her right now is that there's not much about her you can outplay: are useless against her, so her very existence forces you to either spend more money on or play passively, and her main ways of dealing damage are autoattacks and her Q, neither of which are really avoidable once she gets in range. If she could get detected by green wards and had damage you could genuinely react to (aside from dashing out of range), then she'd be able to inflict a lot more damage overall and feel a lot more powerful.

Greens are useful if placed in her jungle near camps so you know which part of the map she is at. Then your lanes know when there is reason for caution, and your own jungle can move closer counter gank if she comes.

Teridax68Dec 2, 20141 votes

Greens are useful if placed in her jungle near camps so you know which part of the map she is at. Then your lanes know when there is reason for caution, and your own jungle can move closer counter gank if she comes.

That's true, and Eve gets super-low in the current jungle, so an aware team can exploit that to get kills on her, but that still doesn't tell you exactly when Eve's ganking your lane, which is why she makes her opposing team's laning phase so much more stressful just by being in the game. While every champion should challenge you to adapt your strategy and outplay them, Evelynn's ability to sidestep sight wards just lets her passively ignore good plays on her opponents' side, namely them laying down vision on the map.

With Evelynn in her current state, I'd rather have an Eve who can get caught by green wards, but with better damage or some other kind of extra power, than an Eve who's balanced around ignoring most of the enemy team's vision and can't really assassinate that well. Even if she'd have to maneuver around wards, she'd still have total freedom of movement in lane, which is still a huge advantage. In the end, Evelynn players would eventually adapt and work with this slightly nerfed stealth, but would also benefit hugely from the extra power she'd get in compensation.

RebonackDec 2, 20141 votes

If we were to keep Eve's Innate, the thing to do would be to add Green Wards to the list of things that can see her. However, make it so Eve gets the ! above her head when a Green Ward has spotted her so she can Sweeper that thing and kill it.

That would afford Eve some more flexible counter-play and open up a TON of kit power to spread around.

However I would still prefer to see her present Innate die in a fire.

Mirage NightDec 2, 20141 votes

I am just hoping what ever they do they do it soon. I just hate the fact that it took 2 years for the original one to go through.

Mirage NightDec 13, 20141 votes

Well at least it sound like they are going to try to buff her. I am hoping this is more of a temp thing while they actually revisit her kit entirely.

OJ191Dec 13, 20141 votes

{quoted} Unfortunately, the payment she makes is far too high,

No, no it isn't. Every single time she has had the rest of her kit be even remotely balanced, Eve as a whole has been broken OP. Unfortunately the only way to make her not shit on everything due to permastealth is to gut her.

She needs to lose it so Eve mains can actually play her without getting pwned by scuttle crab.

Hell you could even give her true stealth back. It just can't be permastealth.

Meep ManDec 13, 20141 votes

I wish they would either keep her passive and make a kit around it since that is half of her in-game identity OR give her a new passive and make it synergize with her ultimate and hybrid damage.