The Problem with SoloKaiser

Malicious Metal·Aug 24, 2015·63 votes·3,158 views

After 30+ games with the reworked Mordekaiser top I've come to realize why he sucks so hard up there. It's simple; HE CAN'T PLAY DEFENSIVE If you're opponent's ranged or gets ahead there's nothing you can do play safe. You can't go in for cs because your shieldgain's pretty bad if not ahead, his nerfed siphon making things really, really hard. You can't throw a W onto your minion, gain shield and go in to secure some cs with your E anymore. No, you're royally fucked! You can't do shit. Really. Even if you go in and try to lasthit some minions you're dead as soon as you're cced because of your shitty MS and the fact that you won't be getting any shield if behind.

Riot, Give Mordekaiser his W back so that he can actually SURVIVE difficult matchups and lost lanes instead of practically being forced to get even more behind due to not being able to CS or chainfeed the enemy! FIX THIS RIOT

//RANT//

59 Comments

7ballAug 24, 201529 votes

only ppl who never played morde before rework defend this new morde...

Robert SmithAug 24, 20153 votes

I've played both, old Morde was safer and easier to use but new Morde does more single target damage, and the Dragon really helps take towers against teams that can clear your wave quickly.

Blue Moon WolfAug 24, 20153 votes

The dragon is great... If you're playing on the rift...

macromiteAug 24, 20152 votes

champions aren't balanced for non rift play, you should already know this.

Blue Moon WolfAug 25, 20152 votes

still should have something to offset the dragon gimmick on other maps, especially since mords Bonus Xp passive doesn't work on at least aram (haven't tested Dominion or TT), I'm assuming because everyone receives full Xp from minion kills on that map (otherwise he would be lvl 6-7 by the time the rest of the team hits lvl 4). You're right, they're not balanced for non rift play, but they do make adjustments. Like when they nerfed healing in aram cause it was (and still is to some degree) so oppressive.

RavenMagusAug 24, 20156 votes

Only people who unconditionally hate change defend the old morde.

Except for the W thing. Morde just needs to be able to use his W in solo lanes. That's the main thing holding him back.

Count ZubatAug 24, 20158 votes

{quoted}

Only people who unconditionally hate change defend the old morde.

Except for the W thing. Morde just needs to be able to use his W in solo lanes. That's the main thing holding him back.

This rework is hated for how much Morde's playstyle is toxic. Like, literally, it is feast or famine: if you destroy your enemy laner and get fed, you become an unstoppable killing monster because of those stupidly high Q ratios. If you get behind on lane, you become practically useless. You either are unstoppable or useless without any chances for come back. That's why this rework is hated so much.

macromiteAug 24, 20154 votes

if you hate the rework for that, then you're stupid, morde has always been feast or famine.

NilokAug 25, 20153 votes

I thought the point of a rework was to fix and improve a champion, to be healthier, not double down on the worst part of it.

Really, this is an experiment by Riot to make a melee carry. The problem is they took a champion that almost never plays that lane and against the advice of the entire Morde player base, gutted his primary lane so he couldn't play any other lane than bot.

Honestly, once Riot is done with their little experiment and gets all the data for their next champion, they should release the real Morde remake.

VarnocAug 25, 20151 votes

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if they did just that.

MasterVidallisAug 25, 20153 votes

Worse fucking rework ever.

They took him away from tops/mids that actually play him to shove him bot.

They boosted his scalling, which was fine, while lowering his fall back patterns with things like using W to farm minions and get a bit more tanky. Thus making him extremely feast and famine.

Chespin2013Aug 25, 20151 votes

The truth has been spoken

Kuroi86Aug 25, 20157 votes

That's assuming there was anything to defend about the old Morde.

Not saying the rework is good, it needs a lot of tweaks to be good.

But in all honesty, his new problems are the same as his old problems.

You either out shoved your lane opponent and won via CS or you were worthless except for flash, ulting the ADC late game after your team has done most of the work. The only good thing about the old Morde was that he was nigh ungankable except by top tier early game junglers in conjunction with top tier early game laners.
He was a mid-range, damage oriented mage which fits almost no needed niche in the game and really just served to be a wave pusher while his team worried about poke, CC and team fights. He was fun as F*^K to play, but to say he was good or healthy is more than a stretch.

SouL1essAug 24, 201517 votes

That's the whole point.

CertainlyT injected Morde's Q with so much steroids that all his other abilities withered away.

If his other abilities are actually good and he can actually solo lane, current Morde would be way too strong.

Which goes back to how Morde rework didn't fix shit about Morde's power curve, but it did succeed in nerfing solo Morde heavily while Riot hands out a batch of compensation in order for Morde to play in a Duo lane.

MatezoideAug 24, 20156 votes

{quoted}

That's the whole point.

CertainlyT injected Morde's Q with so much steroids that all his other abilities withered away.

If his other abilities are actually good and he can actually solo lane, current Morde would be way too strong.

Which goes back to how Morde rework didn't fix shit about Morde's power curve, but it did succeed in nerfing solo Morde heavily while Riot hands out a batch of compensation in order for Morde to play in a Duo lane.

This this and this.

His Q has way too much power. It is one of the most toxic things in his current kit alongside the Experience Passive (A champion whose gimmick relies on out-leveling the opponent in order to gain enough stats to win early is not only incredibly binary, but also means he is not allowed to be relevant when not ahead).

{quoted}

Nah, he sucks hard in a solo lane because that's what Riot wanted from him after the gutting/rework/whatever you wanna call it.

I'm really sorry for all you Morde mains that Riot basically threw your favorite champ in the gutter, but the fact that you all keep complaining that solo-lane Morde doesn't work when that was clearly stated as one of their goals (forcing him duo because "he can't be healthy solo") is just the voice of someone stubbornly trying to deny the fact that he's been changed.

No matter how much you all want it, he isn't going to be a solo lane ever again unless they have a change of heart when they finally do his full scale relaunch. Until then, there is literally ZERO point complaining about how his solo laning sucks because that is precisely what Riot wanted from these changes.

Riot, as well as CertainlyT, specifically stated they want Mordekaiser to remain viable as a Solo Laner, just stronger as a Duo one.

junglerboy16Aug 24, 20152 votes

Uh, quotes from Riot and CertainlyT wanting to remain a good solo lane option?

Because the quotes I find all say that solo Morde "kind of works" but that they don't want him to be a solo laner "because he will never be a healthy solo champion"

Of course that's a bit paraphrased, but they certainly never said they want solo morde to be viable.

Malicious MetalAug 24, 20158 votes

{quoted}

Uh, quotes from Riot and CertainlyT wanting to remain a good solo lane option?

Because the quotes I find all say that solo Morde "kind of works" but that they don't want him to be a solo laner "because he will never be a healthy solo champion"

Of course that's a bit paraphrased, but they certainly never said they want solo morde to be viable.

Scruffy actually told us CertainlyT just put that statement out on his own. The rest of Mordekaiser's Rework team actually perceive him to be decently healthy solo. It's just CertainlyT trying to justify forcing Mordekaiser into botlane. So Riot, excluding CertainlyT, should actually tweak Morde a bit since they openly stated he will be as fun/strong as he was pre-rework

MatezoideAug 24, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=inQXNF83,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-24T18:16:48.543+0000)

Scruffy actually told us CertainlyT just put that statement out on his own. The rest of Mordekaiser's Rework team actually perceive him to be decently healthy solo. It's just CertainlyT trying to justify forcing Mordekaiser into botlane. So Riot, excluding CertainlyT, should actually tweak Morde a bit since they openly stated he will be as fun/strong as he was pre-rework

Wait wait wait wait wait.

WHAT

So CertainlyT is the sole reason he cant go Solo at all? HIM?

I thought the team had reached an agreement or something, but this? This is ridiculous. So CertainlyT is allowed to single-handily decide for the entire Rework team that Mordekaiser is a toxic champion and rework him based on this concept? The same guy that created Kalista, Thresh, Yasuo and Darius? I never liked that statement, but i could understand it, especially since i knew he had an entire team working on it, but this is completely different.

Please give me a link to Scruffy saying this. I legitimate cannot believe this asshole was allowed to do something like this based on his own personal opnion. This means he didnt just ignore the community's feedback...he also ignored his own rework team

{quoted}

Uh, quotes from Riot and CertainlyT wanting to remain a good solo lane option?

Because the quotes I find all say that solo Morde "kind of works" but that they don't want him to be a solo laner "because he will never be a healthy solo champion"

Of course that's a bit paraphrased, but they certainly never said they want solo morde to be viable.

The Patch Notes state that Mordekaiser players ''Shouldnt be afraid of taking him into a traditional lane''. You are right that they never said he was going to be great or anything, but still usable. ''Kind of works'' sounds like ''Viable'' to me.

It really comes down to how you see the word ''Viable''. Personally, for me, viable is something you can do in a game without actively hurting you or your team by a significant margin. Given Mord has the worst win-rate mid and top, with only one positive match-up in each lane and being near the bottom on damage done, CS, Gold Earned, Kills and other stats, he currently seems like a troll pick, or at least close to it.

junglerboy16Aug 24, 20151 votes

Thanks for the clarification, I was under the impression that Riot as a whole didn't want him to be able to solo lane.

Blue Moon WolfAug 25, 20151 votes

good god, could you imagine if they have him tweak mord?

"He seems to strong bot lane now, so w nerfed his Q by lowering the damage but now it hits 5 times and we took away the damage from his W so it can be strictly used for healing.Still can only be used on allies BTW. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL."

...it would be best if riot never sees this idea .__.

JbelsAug 24, 20158 votes

{quoted}

This this and this.

His Q has way too much power. It is one of the most toxic things in his current kit alongside the Experience Passive (A champion whose gimmick relies on out-leveling the opponent in order to gain enough stats to win early is not only incredibly binary, but also means he is not allowed to be relevant when not ahead).

Riot, as well as CertainlyT, specifically stated they want Mordekaiser to remain viable as a Solo Laner, just stronger as a Duo one.

If they actually cared, they would have responded to PBE feedback. But Riot knows best

KingsgraveAug 24, 20156 votes

{quoted}

If they actually cared, they would have responded to PBE feedback. But Riot knows best

RiotRepertoir and Scruffy actually responded to feedback really well. CertainlyT didn't.

JbelsAug 24, 20157 votes

{quoted}

RiotRepertoir and Scruffy actually responded to feedback really well. CertainlyT didn't.

Repertoir and Scruffy are alright by me, but anybody could have said something to us. Anybody could have responded. It bothers me that nobody did at all. Nobody said anything about Morde, except Scruffy's, "We'll be monitoring" post, or the patch notes "It won't be for everybody". Nobody gave any actual response to our displeasure that Morde would be gutted in Solo lane with these changes

Kuroi86Aug 25, 20153 votes

With all honesty, I don't think CT could have said anything that would have made things easier. People already down-voted him just for posting, no matter what he had to say. Not to mention it's Morde, people either love him or hate him. Those that hated the old Morde were happy he was getting reworked. Those that loved the old Morde would be pissed if Riot did anything other than buff the crap out of him. And even then you'd have people complaining because they'd be worried the buffing would be followed by nerf after nerf. As poorly as CT handled the situation, the fact is, he got the shit end of the stick when it came to champs to rework.

DeliothAug 24, 20151 votes

... If you haven't noticed, PBE is for bugtesting. Any balance changes are either in Riot's internal testing (where they KNOW everyone's qualified) or on Live (Where there is enough Data to actually draw conclusions). PBE is a bad statistical place to look for balance info- too small of a sample size in addition to being (majorly) one region's players (and not the most innovative region either). In addition, PBE is used for all the changes at once, so (from experience) everyone tries out the new things, so there isn't a good point of stability that is tested against- you end up with 4Jugg teams duking it out, and they seem pretty evenly matched. But there are very few games that play out like a regular game, one juggernaut (maybe) on a team- and thus very few games that actually show a reasonable situation that could be balanced towards/from.

tl;dr: I'm not even certified and I can tell that PBE isn't good for balance changes.

JbelsAug 24, 20153 votes

{quoted}

... If you haven't noticed, PBE is for bugtesting. Any balance changes are either in Riot's internal testing (where they KNOW everyone's qualified) or on Live (Where there is enough Data to actually draw conclusions). PBE is a bad statistical place to look for balance info- too small of a sample size in addition to being (majorly) one region's players (and not the most innovative region either). In addition, PBE is used for all the changes at once, so (from experience) everyone tries out the new things, so there isn't a good point of stability that is tested against- you end up with 4Jugg teams duking it out, and they seem pretty evenly matched. But there are very few games that play out like a regular game, one juggernaut (maybe) on a team- and thus very few games that actually show a reasonable situation that could be balanced towards/from.

tl;dr: I'm not even certified and I can tell that PBE isn't good for balance changes.

That logic is sound until you realize that Solo Morde was broken on PBE launch. His entire kit for solo lane might as well be a bug, and his Kit for Duo-lane is pretty stompy for Low Elo (Apparently it sucks at high Elo). This just wasn't the right direction to go from the start, and I hope they realize this as time goes on

Malicious MetalAug 24, 20152 votes

{quoted}

This this and this.

His Q has way too much power. It is one of the most toxic things in his current kit alongside the Experience Passive (A champion whose gimmick relies on out-leveling the opponent in order to gain enough stats to win early is not only incredibly binary, but also means he is not allowed to be relevant when not ahead).

Riot, as well as CertainlyT, specifically stated they want Mordekaiser to remain viable as a Solo Laner, just stronger as a Duo one.

Exactly! Winrates for SoloKaiser being slightly above 40% indicate that they failed at making him reman viable in Solo lanes. And the funny part is that it wouldn't take much to actually make him succeed top and mid :(

junglerboy16Aug 24, 20156 votes

Nah, he sucks hard in a solo lane because that's what Riot wanted from him after the gutting/rework/whatever you wanna call it.

I'm really sorry for all you Morde mains that Riot basically threw your favorite champ in the gutter, but the fact that you all keep complaining that solo-lane Morde doesn't work when that was clearly stated as one of their goals (forcing him duo because "he can't be healthy solo") is just the voice of someone stubbornly trying to deny the fact that he's been changed.

No matter how much you all want it, he isn't going to be a solo lane ever again unless they have a change of heart when they finally do his full scale relaunch. Until then, there is literally ZERO point complaining about how his solo laning sucks because that is precisely what Riot wanted from these changes.

GoosetardAug 24, 20152 votes

"While still serviceable in a solo lane..." -Patch 5.16 Notes.

junglerboy16Aug 24, 20154 votes

According to the OP and several other posts, there was apparently a disconnect between CertainlyT and the rest of the Riot team. CertainlyT had no intention of leaving him viable in a solo lane, and the rest of the team thought he was still supposed to be at least ok solo. they put it in the patch notes that he would be viable because of miscommunication between CertainlyT and everyone else, because CertainlyT has left him barely useable in a solo lane intentionally.

MatezoideAug 24, 20152 votes

{quoted}

According to the OP and several other posts, there was apparently a disconnect between CertainlyT and the rest of the Riot team. CertainlyT had no intention of leaving him viable in a solo lane, and the rest of the team thought he was still supposed to be at least ok solo. they put it in the patch notes that he would be viable because of miscommunication between CertainlyT and everyone else, because CertainlyT has left him barely useable in a solo lane intentionally.

I also found a direct quote from Scruffy, which makes me believe your theory is accurate.

{quoted}

That said, I think that we're taking a "do no harm" stance on morde's solo lane compared to live. The solo laner may not be getting to exploit some of the crazy new tools (duo XP, dragon, W) as well as a duo morde, but he should be roughly as powerful/fun as live mordekaiser.

There has definetly been some sort of mis-communication here. The fact the Patch Notes did not mention several changes to Mord (Or was factually incorrect) further suggests this.

GoosetardAug 24, 20152 votes

That explains a lot. I didn't really know much about CertainlyT until a few months ago and I was amazed that he was the connecting factor behind so many elements of game design that irritated me. Now this. :(

Count ZubatAug 24, 20153 votes

well, nope, Morde is now supposed to either destroy someone or be destroyed. Feast or famine, because such a playstyle is very healthy, unlike the playstyle of old Morde. Enjoy, I surely won't.

MasqureManAug 24, 20153 votes

Current mordekaisers defensive ability is W. It helps your allies and you get in faster, it helps you get OUT faster, and it's your sustain against the inevitable pokes and harass that make it through your shield. I agree that Morde needs some kind of solo component to the W if they want to maintain that solo morde is still a thing. If not that, then have E charge double the shield amount when it only hits an isolated champion or something like that.

ModKnightsKemplarAug 24, 20152 votes

I would feel worse about how badly solo lane morde got crippled if he ever felt viable in the first place. The thing is, I don't hate them for trying to make his kit fit somewhere else if that's the only way to make him good. It was worth a shot. Jury's still out on whether or not it worked, imo. Lotta morde bans coming in lately.

TyaldanAug 24, 20152 votes

He was very viable before the rework in solo lane. I used to use him top and as a backup mid. He was the epitome of rape minion wave, get slight level advantage, and steamroll the enemy under their turret, then kill them under turret when you get bored. I wouldnt even dream of taking him solo lane right now, and thats sad. They really could buff his w just a bit to allow it solo, maybe make it so it only goes where you cast unless you cast it on another champ, in which case you both get it. That way he can toss it on a minion to gain shield before going in for last hits, or he can toss it on himself and wade in for a bit of heal. It wouldnt be overpowerd and i really agree with everyone that said having it only work with another champ / ghost is extremely toxic to his solo laning. It can be lolsy going "adc" and wrecking the other team with the early advantage, but he loses out on seiging power too much to make it worth. His seiges happen every time drags up and that makes it easy to counter him.

LarasoAug 24, 20154 votes

51% winrates in Plat and above pre-rework, and my own experience maining him, both disagree that he was "unviable".

Maybe unviable in organized teams. Definitely not in soloque.

And how are you going to argue that this update made him any more viable? All they did was nerf literally everything he has and push all of his power into his Q, which was also nerfed because you no longer get instant burst and you can't use it to waveclear anymore.

GoosetardAug 24, 20151 votes

I believe based on research others have posted that he has a very high winrate botlane and an abysmal winrate anywhere else, which average out.

LarasoAug 24, 20152 votes

"51% winrates in Plat and above pre-rework."

Adrian UmbraAug 24, 20153 votes

As someone who carried game after game as solo lane Morde before the rework, this is the terrible reasoning that Riot used to justify this train wreck of a rework. And it's complete garbage. Morde felt completely viable in lane pre-rework, CT of all people declared his solo laning toxic (he's currently about pre-rework Darius kind of obnoxious if you're in a decent matchup, he was a little better before), and he has more problems than ever. The cherry on top is his absolutely ludicrous burst, and I feel terrible for any opponents I face who don't know the new Morde well because they keep trying to fight me when my Q is up. In melee range. I get kills of those situations on opponents who are full health when I'm at half.

And this is about his solo lane, not his bot lane. His bot lane is starting to appear too strong (probably because of the aforementioned burst for one thing), but his solo lane is considered quite weak.

ScrimshäwAug 24, 20152 votes

solokaiser isn't even a word

KoldheartedjspAug 24, 20151 votes

i haven't played since the patch. I don't see a point. only two champions i actually enjoyed playing are lee sin and morde. Doubt I'd actually enjoy new morde

ShonjlAug 24, 20153 votes

Lee got buffed, and will probably get buffed even more, if Riot's poster boy isn't rolling 3 people at once he isn't strong enough.

Kuroi86Aug 25, 20151 votes

His passive got buffed, which admittedly is a pretty good buff imo.
Though I don't think he'll be quite the dominant force he was in season 3.

JedenVojakAug 25, 20152 votes

{quoted}

His passive got buffed, which admittedly is a pretty good buff imo.
Though I don't think he'll be quite the dominant force he was in season 3.

Actually his passive was mega nerfed.

He get's less shield now (you have to build around 630 hp to equal his old BASE shield), generates less shield now, and runs out of shield more quickly.

Kuroi86Aug 25, 20151 votes

Lol, read the post I replied to, I was referring to Lee Sin. :P Morde's shield is buffed or nerfed, depends on how you build him.