Yi does as much true damage as fiora.

MunchCrunchLunch·Mar 13, 2016·31 votes·3,745 views

this is crazy

71 Comments

ChaoticPineconeMar 13, 201616 votes

Yi and Fiora both do 21.5% true damage on average. HOWEVER, Yi does 18k damage on average, while Fiora does 20k. So Fiora, on average, does more true damage than Yi.

Also, Yi only does that much true damage from the jungle. He does considerably less when played in lane.

Edit - and Vayne does 21.5% true damage too. While doing more damage on average than Fiora or Yi.

Edit2 - Ahri has 24.4% true damage. and more damage on average than Fiora, Yi, or Vayne. Olaf does almost 30% true damage, with more average damage than Yi or Fiora as well.

MunchCrunchLunchMar 13, 20162 votes

considering that fiora is in lane and yi is in the jungle means that he does more damage on average

ChaoticPineconeMar 13, 201611 votes

Master Yi Damage Dealt - 18.3k Fiora Damage Dealt - 20k.

Not sure why you think Yi does more damage on average.

MunchCrunchLunchMar 13, 20162 votes

thats not what I mean. fiora has more time to do damage to other champions since shes in lane.

ChaoticPineconeMar 13, 20165 votes

Not sure how that means Yi does more damage on average. On average takes into account the entire game. If you want to argue that Yi does more true damage lategame, well, show me the stats that say so.

And how do you respond to the fact that Olaf and Ahri do more true damage on average than both Yi and Fiora?

crippler38Mar 13, 20162 votes

I think he's trying to say that since fiora is fighting more often she's getting more true damage procs thus giving her a head start on true damage stacking up

MunchCrunchLunchMar 13, 20161 votes

ChaoticPineconeMar 14, 20161 votes

which i understand. But im giving numbers on what we have - which are the overall true damage. Does Fiora's 3% max health true damage have that much of an impact earlygame, when champions have 500 health, and during laning when its easiest to position and keep the vital away from the laner? Fiora is doing on average 645 more true damage than Yi. Is that from laning (or, to put it in a more accurate way, the 7 minutes of laning when Master Yi is going through the first clear and looking for possible ganks?) We dont know.

What we do know are game averages, in which Fiora does more true damage than Yi.

My Waifu VanillaMar 14, 20161 votes

Because Flat True Damage almost always hits harder than %max health. And as stated before Yi isn't hitting many champions with true damage before 16 minutes where Fiora can Q her laner every time there's a facing Vital.

ChaoticPineconeMar 14, 20161 votes

Flat true damage doesnt always hit harder than % max health (look at irelia). Fiora's true damage doesnt hit hard until 2-3 items anyway. Does her 3% max health facing an opponent with 500 health (which comes out to 15 damage) really make up the -645 average true damage that Yi does?

Serika ZeroMar 14, 20161 votes

That's damage done to enemy champions. Fiora is in a lane from minute 1, Yi is in the jungle. That's why laners generally have higher total damage done to the enemy champions than junglers.

Serika ZeroMar 14, 20161 votes

Dude, the DAMAGE DEALT, is DAMAGE TO CHAMPIONS not to monsters or minions. If you don't believe me, play vs Bots. And see how much damage you do to bots and how much damage you do to minions. As you can see, Yi says "18362" damage on average. This cannot be "jungle" or "minions" damage. Simply because the numbers are to fucking low. There are games when you do 2000 damage to champions, and very rare cases when you do 30.000 damage.

Like: http://matchhistory.eune.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/EUN1/1329117686/200198570?tab=stats My Fiora game from January on this account (I don't really play here on eune), 24 minutes. You can see 12.1k physical damage done to enemy champions 1.4k magic damage to enemy champions 2.6k true damage to enemy champions

115.3k damage done to minions/structures/jungle monsters 2k magic damage done to minions/structures/jungle monsters 5k true damage done to minions/structures/jungle monsters

So, lets see. Damage done to "minions" is in hundreds of thousands. NOT 20k................... its 100K. That's 5 times more. So, no, its not "damage done to minions". Its done to enemy champions.

ChaoticPineconeMar 14, 20161 votes

Youre flipping out over your own mistake. Did i say damage to minions? Try to understand my point here before making obnoxious comments.

We KNOW Yi's average damage. We KNOW Fiora's average damage. We KNOW that on average, 21.5% of the damage is True Damage. WE DO NOT KNOW FIORA'S LANING DAMAGE. WE DO NOT KNOW YI'S LATEGAME TRUE DAMAGE. WE DO NOT KNOW FIORA'S LATE GAME TRUE DAMAGE. YOU DO NOT KNOW YI'S EARLY GAME TRUE DAMAGE DURING GANKS. Unless you have this crucial information, all you have is conjecture.

Like i said before - if youre arguing that Yi does more true damage than Fiora, back it up with the stats. Cause from the stats we have, we KNOW they do the same % of true damage, and we KNOW Fiora does more damage overall, therefore Fiora does more True Damage than Yi.

Edit - and we do not know if Yi's true damage is falsely amplified by redbuff and challenging smite.

SerlthreeMar 13, 20164 votes

This only reason yi does as much true damage as fiora is either A. champion.gg counts damaging minions B. yi has e and red smite

crippler38Mar 13, 20162 votes

good point, it should count red smite

DealthMar 14, 20162 votes

and red buff

AnonymousPoroMar 13, 20163 votes

CC tha Yi.

Seriously though, if they have Yi, play someone like Tahm Kench or Braum with a lot of hard CC or peel. A stun or root can stop Yi.

ArakadiaMar 13, 20161 votes

Yet a slow can't, so nasus and ashe and similar champions are screwed. Thats counter pick though, we want more counterplay. He can build tank and still shred.

AnonymousPoroMar 13, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Yet a slow can't, so nasus and ashe and similar champions are screwed. Thats counter pick though, we want more counterplay. He can build tank and still shred.

I agree there needs to be more counterplay for Yi. Which is why I'm glad that Riot nerfed his passive AD gain from total AD to bonus AD(a nerf to Tank Yi. Which hopefully means we'll see him less).

junglerboy16Mar 13, 20161 votes

Master Yi Wuju Style (E): Active's Flat damage increased to 12/19/26/33/40 from 10/15/20/25/30. Active's AD ratio changed to 25% bonus AD from 10/12.5/15/17.5/20% total AD. [NOTE: AD scaling changed to BONUS AD from TOTAL AD. Should be a nerf when not buying AD but same or better when buying AD.]

Sourced directly from S@20. Forces Yi to build damage to actually get damage (although they could do without the base damage buff).

OverpoweredSoapMar 13, 20162 votes

To be fair Fiora has an invulnerability spell that's a bit more reliable and can have her Q up more reliably imo.

She kinda has to work more for her true damage yeah, but she has her Q for that and her ult.

Yi kinda just needs to hit a button if I remember correctly.

SkelenthMar 13, 20162 votes

The problem is: Fioras true damage is based on your max health. Yis is flat. So even if Yis damage is "easier" applied, Fioras does not have counterbuilds

MunchCrunchLunchMar 13, 201610 votes

the deal is that. yi true damage destroys squishies. and tanks.

My Waifu VanillaMar 13, 20162 votes

Which is why Flat True Damage is a generally more toxic mechanic than %max true damage (and the real reason last season Vayne was annoying because both were on bolts at high value). Champions like Fiora cannot kill high priority targets that fast since they have lower health, whereas, Yi or Olaf can destroy squishies and then move onto the tanks afterwards since flat True damage doesn't care what it is hitting.

MunchCrunchLunchMar 14, 20161 votes

well. fiora still does because she gets a free crit. and late game her bonus % hp isn't like vayne. flat % hp. it scales with hp. massive free damage. but early game yeah it doesn't really matter yi is much better and even late game yi has twice a fiora attack speed. and hes auto reliant so he isn't limited by cooldowns nearly as much

anyway as yi you can easily flash onto an adc. or Q. and kill the target before they can even react. it takes 3-4 autos including his double strike to kill an adc with yi

OyddAWqJ5rMar 14, 20161 votes

Depends on the amount of flat true damage. Because health can counter flat true damage but it won't counter % health.

My Waifu VanillaMar 14, 20161 votes

Considering the general ease of use of Flat True Damage (Reckless Swing, Ahri Q, Wuju Style, Hiten Style, etc.) compared to that of its %max counterpart (3 hits from Vayne without changing targets and the Vital "minigame") it is also much easier to apply Flat True Damage without "counterplay". Yes, you can dodge Ahri Q or attempt to kite (or in some cases straight up dodge their auto attacks) the other champions, but that is much more inconsistent than just not playing Vayne/Fioras game and make them change targets or such.

Also, a lot of users of Flat True Damage either have a FAIRLY high base/scaling or have very easy access to applying it (Yi and Irelia both buy a bit of AS to counteract its "lower" damage output). You can have roughly 15%+ max health true damage, but you will probably still get outdamaged by a Reckless Swing from Olaf (was arguably worse when it had a 340 base) due to its very short CD with Auto Attacks weaved in.

%max health true damage beats tanks, that is a statement that is completely true, BUT tanks are arguably never high priority targets so you should not be focusing them to begin with unless you are in some sort of 1v1 scenario or they are straight up caught out. That being said, your %max health true damage isn't going to hit squishies NEARLY as hard as the rest of your kit does since they don't buy much health/armor/mr so its % of your damage is rather small in this case. On the other hand a Reckless Swing for 300+ will always hit for 300+ which is generally around 15% or so of a full build ADC and Olaf will proceed to do the rest with probably another Reckless Swing and the rest of his kit.

OyddAWqJ5rMar 14, 20161 votes

Yes the current methods of applying flat true damage are easier at the moment because %true damage is stronger. You can't counterbuild %true damage whatsoever (besides AS slow on Vayne) whereas flat true damage is countered by health.

Now this being said every other point you brought up has nothing to do with whether or not flat or % is stronger because of the rule stated in the previous paragraph that % can't be counterbuilt. Now if numbers are overtuned on a flat true damage skill to where it deals more % health than a % health true damage skill then ofcourse it will be stronger which can happen against squishy targets. But this is 100% intentional and by design because most of the ones who have it have it because A) they are designed to be a threat to squishies or B) it's on an extremely telegraphed skill that should be punishing to just eat.

Now once again just to reiterate. % true damage can't be counterbuilt. % flat damage can. That is fact and that is why % is better. Even squishies can build anything with health or to mitigate flat true damage but % will always deal the same %. Whether or not Silver Bolts is better than Wuju Style is not the topic i was speaking of. That cones down to skill efficiency and has nothing to do with flat vs %.

UnderscorBunniesMar 13, 20166 votes

The difference being that Fiora's role that she fulfills in a team is a splitpushing duelist, who can duel anyone that pops out to attempt to stop her. Yi on the other hand, plays a lot like an assassin, so being able to take on tanks with true damage seems really silly.

MunchCrunchLunchMar 13, 20162 votes

he can also duel fiora. and pretty much any champions outside of jax.

SerlthreeMar 13, 20161 votes

Are you sure? Warwick can destroy yi pre-6 and after 6. Pre-6, his passive healing outscales yi's w. After 6, he has a point and click r, which destroys yi's r.

MunchCrunchLunchMar 13, 20161 votes

no yi can get qss

OyddAWqJ5rMar 14, 20161 votes

I've never seen a Warwick destroy a Yi. Yi outdamages WW damage and healing by quite a bit. Only advantage WW has is teamplay. But other than that Yi's durability when built right combined with his insane amounts of true damage will easily topple any WW.

Ofcourse WW will destroy scrub squishy Yi's that build damage tho

Pink Chocolade Mar 14, 20161 votes

No, because the point of Yi is to make damage so big and so quickly, that enemy duelist dont have time to shut you down because HE ALREADY must fuckk outta from you asap, thats why theres no point in building bruiser Yi, its not his full potential.

Also with thousands of games with Yi, I never used heal W on duels, why? It wont help you much, because meanwhile you give enemy CD skill and destroy you, instead of heal, you just hit hit hit, and even if his CD are back he dont have hp already to fuck with Yi.

Oh, and Yi destroys WW, all day everyday, Yi destroys Nasus Illaoi and Rengar lol, so WW is not even a matchup for Yi.

OyddAWqJ5rMar 14, 20161 votes

There's no point in building bruiser Yi? Is that why his winrate is obscenely high and he's due for a nerf when everyone has been playing him bruiser? Because of his squishy build? I think not. Realizing a champions potential is more than simply maxing out their dps--it's about maxing out their effectiveness. And right now, Bruiser Yi is by far the most effective way to build him.

And da heck is all that gibberish about W. Never said a word about it.

And i know Yi beats WW, i already said so.

MLDzXnRRRMar 14, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pink Chocolade ,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=imXKPE0t,comment-id=000300010000000000010000,timestamp=2016-03-14T13:00:56.239+0000)

No, because the point of Yi is to make damage so big and so quickly, that enemy duelist dont have time to shut you down because HE ALREADY must fuckk outta from you asap, thats why theres no point in building bruiser Yi, its not his full potential.

Also with thousands of games with Yi, I never used heal W on duels, why? It wont help you much, because meanwhile you give enemy CD skill and destroy you, instead of heal, you just hit hit hit, and even if his CD are back he dont have hp already to fuck with Yi.

Oh, and Yi destroys WW, all day everyday, Yi destroys Nasus Illaoi and Rengar lol, so WW is not even a matchup for Yi.

AD Yi can work only vs teams with no CC and burst.

IcyPepperMar 13, 20161 votes

Isn't Master Yi a duelist as well?

He seems to build a lot of attack speed, which gives sustained damage rather than just burst damage (like most assassins have, the burst I mean)

UnderscorBunniesMar 14, 20161 votes

He's listed as an Assassin as his primary role, and I think that the idea is that the way to play him "properly" is to build a ton of AD on him, and be able to come out of no where with his ult+alpha strike, gap-closing and chunking you while going untargetable, much like a zed ultimate, effectively nuking a squishy target, and being able to get out with his ult making him un-slowable or to chase down the squishy with the MS boost.

The RewrittenMar 13, 20162 votes

Yeah, but he doesn't gain movement speed every time he deals true damage, his true damage doesn't deal % max health and therefore can be built against (by stacking health), he doesn't heal off every true damage attack, and he doesn't have a 100% invulnerability, and he doesn't have a hard CC.

Fiora has/does all of those.

XeynidMar 13, 20161 votes

"His true damage doesn't deal % max health and therefore can be built against..."

Except it kinda can't because they're both doing the same amount of true damage overall.

The RewrittenMar 13, 20161 votes

I don't think you understand how % damage works.

Flat damage 20 true damage on-hit vs. 100 HP. Takes 5 hits. Build 100 more HP, takes 10 hits.

% damage 15% true damage on-hit vs 100 HP. Takes 7 hits. Build 100 more HP, takes 7 hits.

It's an exaggerated example, but you get the idea.

crippler38Mar 13, 20162 votes

he's saying that yi is hitting you with so much true damage it does on average the same amount as fioras

My Waifu VanillaMar 14, 20161 votes

It's also Yi we are taking about so chances are he DID hit that target 20 times before Fiora hit it with 4 Vitals.

XeynidMar 14, 20161 votes

No, I understand the concept, but if Yi and Fiora are doing the same total amount of true damage, that means that Yi's flat damage is equal to Fiora's scaled damage.

The RewrittenMar 14, 20161 votes

I get what you're saying, but then again, I don't really think it's a problem. Yi is affected by all hard CC, save skill-shots that he dodges with his Q. Fiora blocks all hard CC for 0.75 seconds and throws it back at you for the same amount of time. Proper Tank Yi builds don't even build lifesteal, so he's not healing much at all while he's attacking. Meanwhile, Fiora gets significant heals for every instance of true damage, even without any lifesteal.

But then again, I play Garen and Ekko. I completely destroy Yi, while Fiora is extremely hard to play against. So I'm biased this way.

junglerboy16Mar 13, 20162 votes

You obviously haven't realized that

A: That's always been his niche (the hyper scaling true damage melee carry), you shouldn't be surprised that he does what he's designed to do.

B: They just severely nerfed it on PBE so it only scales off of bonus AD (Sated/bruiser builds are gonna suck now since he'll have to build damage to get the true damage).

My Waifu VanillaMar 14, 20165 votes

Yi only started doing True Damage on his rework in 2013.