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@Meddler, any thoughts on Shen?

Melledoneus··81 votes·25,044 views

Since his nerfs for worlds, his winrate has dropped to 45.28% for the player base who have on average played about 42 games with him. I was hoping maybe after the LCS hype dies down, can we get some buffs or QoL changes? For a quick reference, here is a quick list of issues with Shen at the moment.

  • Lowest scaling armor in the game without compensation
  • Extremely low scaling HP values for a tank that prioritizes HP
  • Reliability on opponent being out of position, since Q cannot be concealed from enemy
  • E hitbox not consistent with visual, no indicator available
  • W does not feel impactful and is extremely slow compared to the rest of Shen's kit
  • Ultimate shield does not scale into late game, role as a Warden can be compromised as a result
  • Q feels more like an anchor than a tool, difficult for Shen to maneuver around opponents if it's not in the right position
  • Q slow very unimpactful, empowered autos too slow to punish opponents who are fleeing
  • No way to quickly proc passive shield
  • First jungle clears very difficult since nerfs to base Q damage
  • When ulting, position of appearance not indicated to ally

Not saying to fix all of these, but I was wondering if the balance team was considering any of these issues in terms of Shen's balance and perhaps some fluidity or consistency changes could bump up his winrate without impacting pro play.

I was hoping we could get some news on what Riot thinks of him in his current state.

192 Comments

Tomosima40 votes

I loved old Shen much more

It Hertz When IP3 votes

Why'd they rework him anyway? He didn't seem particularly oppressive.

rtbf22561824110 votes

Thematic and outdated kit issues from what i recall. I mean he just threw a knife at you and occasionally jumped on you. His ult and E were the only "cooler" things in his kit.

DCYOUNG8886 votes

Not to mention that the old w was just a boring shield button that really didn't do much besides shielding you.

Melledoneus5 votes

Loved him too, but his damage fell off really fast. I want a Shen who can have decent damage against tankier targets, remain a damage threat, but still be a tank. His weaknesses are obviously poke, energy restraints, reliance on a skillshot, and the lack of a combat ultimate.

...without having the worst stats ever for a tank.

devdev46327 votes

The only thing I hate about shen is his spirit blade. Imo it doesn't do anything for his kit and his abilities could function perfectly fine without it. And it's one of the most awkward things I've ever seen on a champion.

It's one the most blatant examples of tacked on depth that I can think of really. Don't give champions depth for the sake of giving them depth, because then it just turns out like shen and his spirit bade.

Phoquelesanimaux11 votes

It's basically a dead weight. A nerf modelized in an useless passive spell.

RiotMeddler25 votes

Some thoughts.

Shen's Current State:

  • We nerfed Shen in 6.18. That was a nerf significantly driven by how dominant Shen could be for organized teams, Pro play in particular.
  • Shen's now too weak in regular play. That's not a new thing for Shen unfortunately. Pre-rework Shen was also difficult to balance for different contexts. His update did improve some of his gameplay issues (e.g. laning interactivity), it hasn't addressed that conflict of trying to balance for two different environments enough though.

Our Plans for Shen:

  • We plan on buffing Shen. What we want to avoid doing though is buffing him because he's underperforming in regular games, then nerfing him again because he's too out of line in top tier play, etc. Changes need to address some of the disconnect between his strength in those different contexts, otherwise we'll just get stuck in a buff/nerf cycle.
  • We think one of the problems is that Shen's performance has too large a gap between its highs and lows, because of some feast/famine effects on his kit. If he's able to engage in a fight and survive in the first place he gets significantly more access to his passive shield for example, pushing him further ahead. On the other hand if he's somewhat behind he loses the ability to usefully trigger that CD reduction. Since he lacks other inherent tankiness to fall back on (low base stats, no ongoing defensive mechanics) a Shen who starts having trouble can have too much trouble recovering as a result. We've generally seen organized teams be better at avoiding letting Shen get into those failure states to begin with, resulting in better overall performance in that setting.
  • We also think there are some other reasons for the disconnect between organized and regular play, but don't have strong enough conclusions on the exact nature of the problems or what direction we should be taking to address them. To improve the odds that the next work we do on Shen puts him into a good spot long term we're planning to look at how he performs at Worlds and then using that info, particularly on strengths/weaknesses shown, to help guide upcoming changes.
  • That means that buffs are likely during the pre-season period sometime (November, or potentially December).
hopeful415 votes

IMO all tanks should be like Shen in the sense that you have to ACTUALLY be good in order to have an impact. You always go on and on about counterplay regarding the damage dealers to the point where they have to do 10 things right in order to dish out the damage and kill the target.

That isnt bad per se but i what i find bad is that Maokai or Nautilus for example can instantly get insane resistances with literally the press of a button. Where is the interactive gameplay on this? Why the burden for outplay and executing combos right should always fall only on the damage dealers?

Melledoneus12 votes

I feel like Nautilus serves a different purpose entirely, though I agree he can get tanky much quicker than normal champions. He's a disruptor, meaning he messes up the enemy's backline and causes panic.

Now Maokai, he's a warden like Shen. I agree that he is too easy to pull off when your carries aren't vegetables, for how much he can do. Scaling armor and MR? Check. High scaling HP? Double check. Unavoidable CC? Check. AoE soft CC? You got it. AoE famage reduction zone that absorbs damage? Why not? Passive health restoring mechanic? Dig in.

I feel that they will address these issues in the inevitable tank update, but I agree that there needs to be a talk about tanks.

Melledoneus3 votes

Hey, Meddler, fantastic response as always, I appreciate you taking the time to andwer. I had another question, if you don't mind me delving into your thoughts about this:

Have you guys considered buffing Shen's base stats or improving the clarity/flow of his kit? Stat changes would significantly help Shen when he's behind, and clarity or flow would make it easier for players in normal play to perform better while not really affecting pro teams all too much, mainly because Shen's strength as I see it is his arsenal of team-fighting tools, which LCS players can use to their fullest. And since a failure of landing Shen's taunt already leads to dangerous positioning and possibly death anyway, I think stat changes would help his survivability without affecting his overall team performance.

What do you predict will be changed?? I won't hold what you say here as a promise, since there still needs to be data gathered on how professional players utilize him and how he works in that environment.

RiotMeddler4 votes

If I had to guess base stats seems like one of the most likely things, stat gain per level in particular (survivability in later game team fights wanted more than early laning power).

Melledoneus3 votes

Would you be willing to add late game value to Shen's ultimate? For example, an HP scaling to the shield? Right now it feels a little difficult to save a teammate with the shield, especially when behind. I was hoping to see some changes to make the shield more impactful, even if it meant a longer cooldown, which would make it a much more impactful ability that punishes you for using it incorrectly.

Adalvar1 votes

Can you give a hint on what these Shen buffs might consist of? Also will the pre-season see a return of boot enchants?

RiotMeddler4 votes

Not sure yet. As above we need to do some analysis. If I had to guess, base stats seems fairly likely.

Regarding boot enchants, I could imagine us reintroducing them some day if we had a version that both offered good choices and didn't raise average movement speeds to an inappropriate level. That's not something we're working on for this pre-season though.

Gummî Bear3 votes

Inb4 noone picks shen. Kalista seems to fall in the same category. Do you guys have any plans for her?

RiotMeddler5 votes

If Shen gets no picks at Worlds that'd simplify our work a lot, given it means we at least in part just overnerfed for everyone and could pump some straight power in.

We've got kind of similar plans for Kalista, though in her case it'll be a bigger project probably. Assessment there is that she's good at too many different things, so we'll likely remove a strength from her and put its power into some of her other strengths.

EROTIC RAID BOSS1 votes

safe to assume Azir is in a similar place? Are these champions you want to tackle sooner rather than later? I'm hoping so, as they're really cool unique champions with a lot of fans. I'm in love with azir but not his win rate

RiotMeddler3 votes

Yep, same deal on Azir. He probably needs the most work of the three, so is likely to be done last. Possible we might be able to give him some general buffs before that, again Worlds performance will help us understand what sort of trade offs that would involve in terms of risk of seeing him just dominant mid lane again in organized play. That might be a cost worth paying, want a better understanding of his current state though before signing that cheque.

Skias2 votes

{quoted}

Yep, same deal on Azir. He probably needs the most work of the three, so is likely to be done last. Possible we might be able to give him some general buffs before that, again Worlds performance will help us understand what sort of trade offs that would involve in terms of risk of seeing him just dominant mid lane again in organized play. That might be a cost worth paying, want a better understanding of his current state though before signing that cheque.

I really hope you make Azir's shurima shuffle more frequent and dont just make him a boring stand back and poke guy.

EROTIC RAID BOSS2 votes

In case you're looking for feedback, I know feelings about what we like and don't like are usually more helpful for you guys than 'ideas'. So I'll resist that urge

I think what's really iconic about Azir is a few things, and I'd hate for you guys to completely change these things -the unique soldier inputs (I doubt you'd mess with that much anyway)

  • the general feeling of snappiness and piercing attacks on Azir, from his basic/soldier attacks and Q to his current all in, is really distinct and cool -having a dash if not so long range, and the ability to use some cool combos. I'm sure you'd be looking at this area, and while I don't think it has to be in the exact same form, I think the ability to aggressively slide in or combo people for some sudden burst makes him stand out from cass xerath etc. and is definitely part of his appeal
Sincarnation3 votes

{quoted}

We've got kind of similar plans for Kalista, though in her case it'll be a bigger project probably. Assessment there is that she's good at too many different things, so we'll likely remove a strength from her and put its power into some of her other strengths.

I keep hearing this, been hearing it for months Riot pls remove or gut Martial Poise

Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votes

I believe her issues relies more so in her Oathsworn Mechanic and the free stats it provides her. Since when has an ADC REQUIRED Percentage health damage to do well? Jinx and Miss Fortune sure as hell don't. Vayne only needs it because she kinda sucks at everything else. It's not like she doesn't build Attack Speed to begin with, why give her more for Free. Just seems like an excuse to give her a crappy base Attack speed (COUGHKOGMAWCOUGH) Removing the Link and just making her Ultimate a point-and-click on any Ally might be a possible path, but then allowing her to throw the teams 16/1 Gnar into the enemy Backline in the late could cause issues.

Sincarnation2 votes

{quoted}

I believe her issues relies more so in her Oathsworn Mechanic and the free stats it provides her. Since when has an ADC REQUIRED Percentage health damage to do well? Jinx and Miss Fortune sure as hell don't. Vayne only needs it because she kinda sucks at everything else. It's not like she doesn't build Attack Speed to begin with, why give her more for Free. Just seems like an excuse to give her a crappy base Attack speed (COUGHKOGMAWCOUGH) Removing the Link and just making her Ultimate a point-and-click on any Ally might be a possible path, but then allowing her to throw the teams 16/1 Gnar into the enemy Backline in the late could cause issues.

Her Oathsworn mechanic is the most interesting part of her, and it promotes working and coordinating a bit with your team. They nerfed her base AS and added it back to the Oathsworn mechanic so she was far weaker in 1 v 1 scenarios away from her oathsworn. That change was a nerf aimed at crapping on her duelings scenarios. %HP damage isnt necessary but it is thematic and promotes working with your support in lane while making up for the damage she would lose from having 2 abilities purely for utility.

The problem is her degenerate passive that says fuck all your melee champs that dont have tons of mobility. Hope you enjoy getting kited to death

Oleandervine6 votes

{quoted}

Some thoughts.

Shen's Current State:

  • We nerfed Shen in 6.18. That was a nerf significantly driven by how dominant Shen could be for organized teams, Pro play in particular.

  • Shen's now too weak in regular play. That's not a new thing for Shen unfortunately. Pre-rework Shen was also difficult to balance for different contexts. His update did improve some of his gameplay issues (e.g. laning interactivity), it hasn't addressed that conflict of trying to balance for two different environments enough though.

Our Plans for Shen:

  • We plan on buffing Shen. What we want to avoid doing though is buffing him because he's underperforming in regular games, then nerfing him again because he's too out of line in top tier play, etc. Changes need to address some of the disconnect between his strength in those different contexts, otherwise we'll just get stuck in a buff/nerf cycle.
  • We think one of the problems is that Shen's performance has too large a gap between its highs and lows, because of some feast/famine effects on his kit. If he's able to engage in a fight and survive in the first place he gets significantly more access to his passive shield for example, pushing him further ahead. On the other hand if he's somewhat behind he loses the ability to usefully trigger that CD reduction. Since he lacks other inherent tankiness to fall back on (low base stats, no ongoing defensive mechanics) a Shen who starts having trouble can have too much trouble recovering as a result. We've generally seen organized teams be better at avoiding letting Shen get into those failure states to begin with, resulting in better overall performance in that setting.
  • We also think there are some other reasons for the disconnect between organized and regular play, but don't have strong enough conclusions on the exact nature of the problems or what direction we should be taking to address them. To improve the odds that the next work we do on Shen puts him into a good spot long term we're planning to look at how he performs at Worlds and then using that info, particularly on strengths/weaknesses shown, to help guide upcoming changes.
  • That means that buffs are likely during the pre-season period sometime (November, or potentially December).

Will you complete Shen's VGU so he's not stuck in this half state between having the rigging and VO of an "Original 40" and the model texture and kit design of a "Sion Level VGU?"

ItsOrval4 votes

Can we rework shen back to where he was before.

Doseqis3 votes

I honestly just would appreciate a revert at this point, i loved the old Shen and what he brought to the table for a sustain tank in my eyes he felt like what a reliable tanky champion should feel like where he can go through most lanes safely and come out pretty strong, sure this might not be fun to play against but in the land of Gnar's infinite harass due to no mana and Gp just Qing you for gold every 3 seconds with little counterplay it's pretty reasonable now.

NOW do not mistake this for just keeping him in that identity forever but what i am saying is that his rework needs to be finished and re implemented, his kit just feels disjointed in the state that it is in his Q and W interact with a cool concept of a spirit blade where he needs to position it correctly and it can have a big impact but the rest of his kit just doesn't fill that idea. When I say this i mean his E and Ult might be super iconic but his E is very simple and could be replaced by a skill that fulfils his fantasy more and his ult has always caused problems for competitive play whenever he is strong.

This might just be one players opinion in the mass of millions but Shen feels disjointed and clunky to play, oppressive in some matchups while completely useless in others and just a general mess of a rework in my opinion of someone who has 15k mastery points on him.

Sad Tyrant3 votes

I feel you did him a Dis-service, when you took his old Q and Passive away. I feel he was in a good place in general before his rework, where he was played in most levels of play.

The Regen (No matter how small) and The Auto attack damage that scaled with his health, Along with his Base Stats, made him the Duelist he was before, IMO.

Not only that, Him becoming entirely melee, allowed every ranged champion to be a direct counter, No his W wasn't and still isn't effective due to the inhuman (Good mechanical player) reflexes you need to block attacks with it, not including teamfights of course, just in the laning phase. The 400 energy thing is completely Stupid along with the spirit blade, he was already gated by the high cost and CD of his E.

so the best thing to do, In my own opinion, is to give him back his old Q, some semblance of his old Passive, and his old stats.

Sincerly

A Salty Old Shen Player

And A Real Hiero20 votes

Riot wants Shen to be garbage and unfun to play.

Ralanr19 votes

Fun is subjective. I find him pretty fun still.

And A Real Hiero15 votes

Compared to pre rework, no he is a lot less fun for me. But facing champs I used to be able to go toe to toe with and just get completely stomped now, no thanks. The whole damage creep makes his ult feel useless when you want to save someone.

Ralanr9 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bel Boz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ikQLcBdE,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-26T14:06:34.593+0000)

Compared to pre rework, no he is a lot less fun for me. But facing champs I used to be able to go toe to toe with and just get completely stomped now, no thanks. The whole damage creep makes his ult feel useless when you want to save someone.

That's your opinion and you're free to have it. I personally didn't like his Q ranged spam in lane. Made me feel like I was only waiting to use my ult and just had to survive my lane.

And A Real Hiero10 votes

Hence why I typed "for me". I actually looked forward to the rework, only to be letdown by it being a nerf in disguise.

Ralanr6 votes

Fair enough.

Roit Gums2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bel Boz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ikQLcBdE,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-26T14:06:34.593+0000)

Compared to pre rework, no he is a lot less fun for me. But facing champs I used to be able to go toe to toe with and just get completely stomped now, no thanks. The whole damage creep makes his ult feel useless when you want to save someone.

OP isnt talking about the rework he is talking about the Nerfs to him after the world patch i guess when they revert that change everyone will be happy

And A Real Hiero4 votes

Reply was not to op.

Ravenous Howls13 votes

My biggest gripe with Shen right now is how gimmicky the spirit blade feels in some regards. At best you are forced to Shadow dash past an enemy while simultaneously pressing Q to get it to pass through them and get your bonus AS and Damage. While this feels super satisfying it also cripples your combo choices as it is the only viable means to get it consistently. The slow also feels very lack luster as well and tacked on at best.

All this said I still think it is a way more useful and fun iteration then Vorpal Blade ever was but it does feel slightly unpolished. I would also rather see his ult have a strict scaling on health as opposed to AP. Shen builds nothing with AP in it so it's basically a useless stat modifier on what is suppose to be an "OP" Ult. Let's also be honest his ult is really not that OP unless your team has some god like coordination in Solo games. Half the time I use it the carry disengages and takes me out of position to dash in or the oither team has enough damage to burst the shield and kill them anyways...

I am just tired of champions being reworked only to be pigeon holed into certain roles or builds b/c of their abilities or lack of build paths outside of what just ends up being optimal...

And A Real Hiero9 votes

Riot even admitted they failed his fantasy with this Spirit blade thing. But Shen is not important, so its ok to put him in the dumpster.

dapositiveviking10 votes

shen stinks because it feels you're only playing with half of oriannas kit

Zero Skill Tank7 votes

Buffing him will be difficult, because a) his basic abilities need to be weak, to compensate for huge power that Stand United brings, and b) because Shen is extremely hard to punish in any way, as most of his kit is purely defensive. Fixing his issues is almost out of question, maybe sans for weird hitbox, as most of them are more of less intended weakness, put there on purpose to give his enemies any chance of lowering Shen's impact. Those weaknesses still fail to do so, since all the number nerfs.

Also, as you noticed yourself, average Shen has very little games as him. Add this to his teamwork reliance, and low winrate in ranked is pretty much to be expected. Maybe not 45-low, but still.

Melledoneus24 votes

{quoted}

Buffing him will be difficult, because a) his basic abilities need to be weak, to compensate for huge power that Stand United brings,

I was under the impression that his basic abilities should be strong on their own because Stand United cannot be used for himself? At level 6 most top laners get ultimates that can be used offensively, and Shen is not one of them.

and b) because Shen is extremely hard to punish in any way, as most of his kit is purely defensive.

Shen actually can't use more than 2 of his abilities defensively. His passive shield is also delayed, so it requires him to already be aggressive to proc it and get the refresh on it. His W is reliant on his opponent using autos. Other than that, his abilities cannot be used defensively in lane, so if he messes up he's dead.

Fixing his issues is almost out of question, maybe sans for weird hitbox, as most of them are more of less intended weakness, put there on purpose to give his enemies any chance of lowering Shen's impact. Those weaknesses still fail to do so, since all the number nerfs.

The only reason he got nerfed was his ultimate. And guess what was the one thing they did not nerf.

Also, as you noticed yourself, average Shen has very little games as him. Add this to his teamwork reliance, and low winrate in ranked is pretty much to be expected. Maybe not 45-low, but still.

42 games is quite a bit of play for a mechanically simple champion like Shen...

My Waifu Vanilla4 votes

{quoted}

The only reason he got nerfed was his ultimate. And guess what was the one thing they did not nerf.

Because Stand United is an ability that is, by design, impossible to balance.

A) Nerf the CD? Whatever, he will still use it on cooldown across the map so adding 20 seconds is not going to chance the impact of the ability in the slightest. It's like with how many times they have hit GP ult it still is one of the best abilities in the game (and they have nerfed the cd quite a few times).

B) Nerf the shield? The shield is already "meh" at best and RARELY will a target only live with like 50 health that any nerf to the shield will actually matter and make the ability worse.

C) Nerf the channel time? The channel time is already long enough but hitting it up to 3.5 or 4 seconds MIGHT prepare people for the ult a bit more, HOWEVER, most people typically disengage from the ulted target before it ever goes off anyway (they have 3 seconds so it isn't THAT hard especially since he ults the ADC 9 times out of 10 for the first 1-2 ults).

There is absolutely nothing on the ult you can really nerf while keeping it the same ability (a global shield that teleports shen) that will actually have any sort of impact on its effect in game GIVEN that the nerf is actually reasonable (no 1 damage shield or 30 minute CD).

Veltox6 votes

Trash base stats? Mordekaiser says hi.

Melledoneus11 votes

Mordekaiser's horrid HP stats are somewhat compensated by his passive shield which can technically have a 100% uptime.

Seto Kaiba5 votes

Impossible due to degen, reworked skill downtime and having to rely on allies/squishy minions for what used to be his consistent shield generator.

Leona is Waifu4 votes

{quoted}

  • Lowest scaling armor in the game without compensation

While I agree with some of the things you're stating here, I have to disagree with this statement. The compensation that Shen gets for low base armor is a shield and a AA dodge. How effective these tools are is debatable, but to say he's completely without compensation is, I feel, incorrect.

Requiemsfire1 votes

[deleted]

Arakadia6 votes

Its pretty telegraphed, im not sure what you mean.

Velzard of Koz2 votes

giving very little warning before it happens

Wait I may be wrong but doesn't it create like a giant purple shield around his target? One you notice If you pay attention to more things than minion? Also doesn't it take like 3 seconds? Would you really want it to reveal Shen's current position, make loud annoying sound Mecha Sion-style globally and create a Las Vegas arrow saying Gang incoming?

Melledoneus3 votes

I'll take that neon sign arrow. It'll be a nice addition.

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