Rengar

excodar·Dec 29, 2015·45 votes·3,141 views

If Rengar got nerfed to the point where he couldn't one shot anyone, What would he be able to do? He would just be a shit champion that did nothing.

48 Comments

xShiNjiNxDec 29, 201518 votes

Pretty much, but the community doesnt know shit. Hell if every1 got what they wanted on these forums, every champion would be gutted and this game would be completely trash.

They dont want to learn the game, they want riot to make it easier for them lol.

Slamurai JackDec 29, 201515 votes

"Nerf every champion except mine pls. They need buffs instead."

NightstalkerX7Dec 29, 20151 votes

-Every QQ thread, ever.

TaoistMasterDec 29, 201518 votes

Nerf rock. Paper is fine.

Sincerely, Scissors

Ice BirbDec 29, 20156 votes

Malphite item 3070

fééd l0rdDec 30, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Pretty much, but the community doesnt know shit. Hell if every1 got what they wanted on these forums, every champion would be gutted and this game would be completely trash.

They dont want to learn the game, they want riot to make it easier for them lol.

No only assassins and marksmen would be gutted, everybody would play tanks.

ViashinoWizardDec 29, 201513 votes

He'd be Khazix

MunchCrunchLunchDec 29, 20155 votes

{quoted}

He'd be

i find kha zix better than rengar in taken down tankier opponents. rengar is beast to one shot squishes. but kha zix can stay in combat longer and has an escape. idk why people think he sucks. my personal opinion. he has better burst over a longer period of time. sure. at one shot rengar does way more damage but on a longer fight kha zix will put out more consistent damage

my 2 cents. send rengar. against someone like mastery yi. he doesn't stand a chance. while kha zix can definitely take down a fullbuild yi if he got the first hit.

Diananmen SquareDec 29, 20153 votes

{quoted}

my 2 cents. send rengar. against someone like mastery yi. he doesn't stand a chance. while kha zix can definitely take down a fullbuild yi if he got the first hit.

You're wrong on that one. Rengar can easily take Yi down, especially with his Empowered Q's attack speed boost.

A Miss FortuneDec 29, 201513 votes

That's exactly why he's considered a broken/poorly designed champion. Rengar relies on one-shotting a carry and killing them in 1/10th of a second to do well. This is unfair because it has basically no real counterplay unless you have the fastest reflexes recorded in history but if he couldn't do this he wouldn't do really anything.

PBnJellyDec 29, 20153 votes

This is why assassins in general are a flawed concept. In a supposedly skill-based PvP game, when one player can kill another without any counterplay, then it's not really fun for the player who's getting killed. But at the same time, if there's counterplay/ if the assassin can't kill an enemy extremely fast then they just become useless. Prime examples are Rengar and Khazix . Rengar WILL oneshot a player on your team unless he's really behind. The player getting oneshot can't really do anything about it because they would need to react in a very small fraction of a second. Kha'Zix probably won't oneshot anyone (anymore) unless he's really far ahead. This creates a lot of room for counterplay and leaves Kha not being able to do his job properly, and making him a pretty bad champion right now.

TroiannDec 29, 20154 votes

If we get rid of assassins we'd have to get rid of adcs and mages too, because then melee in itself would be a worthless class simply because if the enemy team picked lulu it's gg ff20

ImNotOriginal7Dec 30, 20151 votes

{quoted}

If we get rid of assassins we'd have to get rid of adcs and mages too, because then melee in itself would be a worthless class simply because if the enemy team picked lulu it's gg ff20

It just goes to show you how insanely moronic assassins are if you consider them as the answer to lulu(who is supposed to be the answer to assassins).

TroiannDec 30, 20151 votes

Lulu is a good pick against assassins, however, picking an assassin is your best bet against a lulu (outside of picking a long range farm mage), because literally all melees who aren't an assassin get kited to oblivion by lulu.

ImNotOriginal7Dec 30, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Lulu is a good pick against assassins, however, picking an assassin is your best bet against a lulu (outside of picking a long range farm mage), because literally all melees who aren't an assassin get kited to oblivion by lulu.

What sort of mages are we talking about here? Basically all of them outrange her and don't care for being kited either,how does brand(which is a medium range mage) weak to her kiting? how is orianna weak to her kiting? Hell even ryze doesn't care much for her,he can still lockdown his target and burst it down.

Mages are ranged,it's like saying adcs are bad vs lulu because she will kite them down,it makes no sense.

Now granted,solo lane lulu is pretty damn strong at the moment(especially in competitive),but her counters aren't and never were assassins(and in competitive,when lulu is picked,she is almost never answered by assassins,and instead by some other mage like ryze or anivia),stronger assassins mean a stronger lulu because it makes her skillset more valuable,this whole notion is absurd.

TroiannDec 30, 20151 votes

I said outside of long range mages assassins are the next best thing. So mages are good against her, but that's all you have.

ImNotOriginal7Dec 30, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I said outside of long range mages assassins are the next best thing. So mages are good against her, but that's all you have.

Well,what other mid laners are there? If brand is a "long range mage" and even ryze(one of the more popular picks against lulu) is a "long range mage",then that basically means that the vast majority of mid laners fall under either "long range mages" or assassins,which automatically makes them the next best thing(kind of like the losing team getting "2nd place" in urf),by your definitions they are the only next thing,I'm not sure what you are getting at.

ImNotOriginal7Dec 30, 20151 votes

{quoted}

This is why assassins in general are a flawed concept.

Not necessarily,they just work that way in lol.

What if instead of instagibbing in 0.01 seconds,it will take rengar 1.5 seconds to kill his target,since rengar a 1.75 second snare,he will still have uses when ganking or killing people when they are alone(naturally his dps will increase but his burst will get lower,kind of like his rework was supposed to make him,but didn't really),he will still have use initiating fights out of nowhere and granting vision with his ult,looking for picks and gaining map control by forcing the enemy team to be relatively grouped,he would still have uses.

But his competition are things like le blanc which delete people instantly,so nobody would want to play a healthy assassin when cancerous ones exist,in a sensible state assassins will have cast times which mean that counters can deal with them effectively and you can't just jump into the enemy team 1v5 and still get a kill out of it(which is absurd),but that makes them "clunky" and "boring to play" so instead everyone else suffers.

Hell take yasuo for example(mostly as a concept),what if you just made windwall would have a 0.5 second "setup time"(where it does nothing until it fully forms) and his e would instead be a much faster dash but with a 0.4 second cast time(naturally these changes will come with increased base stats and likely some buffs to his abilities as well),he will still have his identity: he will still dash around like a kangaroo on cocaine,he will still have his windwall to dance around and block all abilities,but he will actually have to use his head and anticipate and set up his abilities instead of just reacting to enemy casts,it will just be answered with "omg you ruined yasuo he is now clunky and boring,I don't autowin matchups against skillshot based champions,what the hell is this?!".

Basically riot prioritizes assassins over everyone else,they can work in a healthy way,but their playerbase is very attached to their obnoxious instaburst pattern,so instead riot makes everyone else suffer so that assassins will have fun.

FrickendaChickenDec 30, 20151 votes

Well, you know, Riot doesn't just prioritize Assassins for the hell of it. Assassins are the absolute hardest champions to balance. One small nudge means they cant do job well enough, or do too much. There was a point where Rengar did nothing, with a small nerf to like 3 of his damaging abilities. So then they put him back. Riot is reworking him. They've said this. Just wait until then, and stop complaining. Leblanc deletes someone because Zed does, Because Fizz does, Because Rengar does, Because Kha'Zix does. Notice, it's one champion. Yasuo's dash is completely balanced because it takes 6 seconds AT MAX for the Yasuo to dash on the same target again. He also has no escape, and the most unreliable ult and cc. ALSO his W is on almost a 30 SECOND COOLDOWN. Ahri can get almost 3 rotations of skills for Yasuo to block one spell. Also, yasuo isn't an assassin. He works like a fighter, he is a fighter, he has the weaknesses as a fighter. Assassins are also incredibly easy to counter by building early defenses and not letting them get snowballing. That's their major weakness. If they can't explode someone, they are worthless. They have no way to deal with 1 cc thrown at them. They are incredibly squishy because they have to build all but 1 damage item, otherwise they can't explode someone, therefor they are worthless. If I nerf a tank's natural in kit tankiness, then it means that they have to build different/more tank items. If I buff a tank's natural in kit tankiness, then it means that they don't have to build as many tank items to be as effective, and they can build a bruiser item, and have a more aggressive/offensive kit. If I nerf anything a bruiser does, then they shift to the opposite side. If I nerf an assassins damage, they do nothing. They can do nothing, they have nothing to give but menial damage. If Leblanc CAN'T explode someone, she does nothing. If Rengar doesn't kill the adc or mage, he has accomplished nothing. But hey, just nerf assasins because they can do the thing they are designed to do completely. Everyone suffers from facing against a snowball playstyle? Do you just ignore a Kog'Maw or Katarina in lane, or do you gank them over and over so they can't get their items. Assassins need the same treatment. Assassins don't get the same treatment. Congrats, you didn't buy defences when you were 1/3 to the assassin, and instead got yourself a tri-force. You can't fight back. Congratulations, that simple purchasing of items lost the game.

IT'S THAT EASY [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

ImNotOriginal7Dec 30, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Well, you know, Riot doesn't just prioritize Assassins for the hell of it.

No,they do so out of favoritism.

Assassins are the absolute hardest champions to balance. One small nudge means they cant do job well enough, or do too much.

They are the hardest champions to balance because they are allowed to trample over design philosophies,they aren't so inherently,they are just allowed to have obnoxious mechanics out of favoritism,these mechanics make them very volatile and hard to balance.

There was a point where Rengar did nothing, with a small nerf to like 3 of his damaging abilities. So then they put him back. Riot is reworking him. They've said this. Just wait until then, and stop complaining.

Yes,let's let him ruin games until riot figures out what to do with him,sure,when poppy had a toxic kit she was gutted and left to wait for her rework,but rengar is a special snowflake,so he should be allowed to remain strong even with his hyper toxic kit,cause he's an assassin,and assassins are allowed to trample over riot's design philosophies.

Leblanc deletes someone because Zed does, Because Fizz does, Because Rengar does, Because Kha'Zix does. Notice, it's one champion.

Zed at least has a 0.75 delay,fizz got so many work put into him I don't even know where he stands now,le blanc is a moronic abomination and there's a reason the boards burst into flames everytime she becomes a prominent pick,basically what you are saying "rengar should be allowed to be retarded cause so is le blanc",hell,why was poppy gutted then? why was olaf or eve gutted? they all were about on par with rengar in toxicity(or less so).

Yasuo's dash is completely balanced because it takes 6 seconds AT MAX for the Yasuo to dash on the same target again. He also has no escape, and the most unreliable ult and cc. ALSO his W is on almost a 30 SECOND COOLDOWN. Ahri can get almost 3 rotations of skills for Yasuo to block one spell.

Which can be an ult for all it matters,or several skills. And no,manaless,spammable re-positioning is never balanced,you can make any excuse for it that you want,it forces you to counter pick him with point click or be hard-countered if he isn't trash,hard counters are against riot philosophies,this ability isn't fine.

Also, yasuo isn't an assassin. He works like a fighter, he is a fighter, he has the weaknesses as a fighter.

Fighters are durable,yasuo isn't. He might be dps,but he deals so much of it he definitely fits the category of "assassin".

Assassins are also incredibly easy to counter by building early defenses

God with these bronze mechanics,rushing early defenses on mages gives your opponent complete control over your lane and just solidifies your disadvantage,sure it'll be harder for him to kill you,but it'll be easier for him to shove you under your tower(cause he built damage,and damage pushes lanes),where you'll miss cs giving him room to roam effectively with the damage he built,it also means it'll be very hard for your jungler to help you,as you lack damage to make ganks successful.

and not letting them get snowballing.

Oh,so "just don't lose lane against a lane bully",what's next? "just kill the enemy team without dying"? man if you can just simply do this why aren't you challenger yet?

That's their major weakness.

Too bad these aren't weaknesses at all.

If they can't explode someone, they are worthless.

or they can roam,or splitpush.

They have no way to deal with 1 cc thrown at them.

Except you know,ez avoiding it with their crazy mobility(you know most cc is skillshot based right? the kind of abilities dashes allow you to avoid with ease),bonus points for just going invulnerable or untargetable.

They are incredibly squishy because they have to build all but 1 damage item, otherwise they can't explode someone, therefor they are worthless.

So do mages and adcs just that they don't have crazy mobility(bonus points for invulnerability) to defend themselves.

If I nerf a tank's natural in kit tankiness, then it means that they have to build different/more tank items. If I buff a tank's natural in kit tankiness, then it means that they don't have to build as many tank items to be as effective, and they can build a bruiser item, and have a more aggressive/offensive kit. If I nerf anything a bruiser does, then they shift to the opposite side. If I nerf an assassins damage, they do nothing. They can do nothing, they have nothing to give but menial damage. If Leblanc CAN'T explode someone, she does nothing. If Rengar doesn't kill the adc or mage, he has accomplished nothing.

Roam,splitpush,look for picks. There's more to this game than teamfights...or diving 1v5 rambo style.

But hey, just nerf assasins because they can do the thing they are designed to do completely. Everyone suffers from facing against a snowball playstyle? Do you just ignore a Kog'Maw or Katarina in lane, or do you gank them over and over so they can't get their items.

You do realize kog'maw is an immobile slow squishy whereas katarina has about the same hp,but a much higher ms AND a blink,she's not vulnerable to ganks at all.

Assassins need the same treatment.

No,they don't,their early isn't weak,kog'maws early is weak.

Assassins don't get the same treatment.

Of course they don't,they aren't weak to ganks hence they aren't prioritized by the jungler.

Congrats, you didn't buy defences when you were 1/3 to the assassin, and instead got yourself a tri-force. You can't fight back. Congratulations, that simple purchasing of items lost the game.

See even if you bought something else you would still lose trades,even though I'm not sure what exactly goes mid lane and rushes tri force.

IT'S THAT EASY [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Amazing mechanics and understanding of the game bronzelord. If it's "THAT EASY" why is there a massive abyss of skill between us? For someone who knows the game so much better than me,why are you so horrible at it?

BluePolarizerDec 29, 201511 votes

The only nerf Rengar needs is the reintroduction of pink ward trinket and reverting the red trinket nerf. I don't know why Riot did these huge nerfs since back when red trinket was actually not trash, Rengar could still assassinate lone people or people out of position while having a hard time assassinating someone in the middle of their team, as he should.

CppLDec 29, 20157 votes

Im fine with 1 shoting ,but not in 0.3s.You cant even react to that.

PogChampEleGigglDec 29, 20156 votes

{quoted}

If Rengar got nerfed to the point where he couldn't one shot anyone, What would he be able to do? He would just be a shit champion that did nothing.

has all the symptoms of a champion who needs a rework, gg

SalronDec 29, 20155 votes

And? Why should he be able to do so at all? He needs a flat out rework.

Pale PirateDec 29, 20154 votes

He would just be a shit champion that did nothing.

Perfect.

YuGiHoDec 29, 20153 votes

Evelynn

Sneakyy XDDec 29, 20152 votes

Champions can be good without the ability to one-shot.

LittleBlastDec 29, 20153 votes

All assassins have going for them is burst tho

EIýziumDec 29, 20152 votes

Remember tank rengar? good ol' times

thepay3Dec 29, 20152 votes

So its OK for a champion to be able to one shot an adc. This has no counterplay...

ModAcademy KaynDec 29, 20152 votes

I'm not asking for him not to be able one-shot people. I just want more than a split-second of an exclamation mark to react to him.

HahahahyenaDec 29, 20152 votes

he'd be like kha'zix, able to kill someone at a reasonable amount of time not 1 shotting everyone at 0.01secs

KrinuDec 29, 20151 votes

The problem with champions like Rengar (huge burst, huge base damage values, and huge scalars) is that very small changes to itemization costs can vastly skew power curves.

So, say, massively reducing the cost of AD items with an ADC rework might just have a small effect on an assassin that scales incredibly hard with AD.

4EtQTKtcfTDec 29, 20151 votes

I absolutely agree with you! Ever since pre his rework he cant even splitpush anymore..

snibedi snabDec 29, 20151 votes

It's his leap that's the problem, not the instagib from stealth. If you drop a pink ward at your feet or use sweepers, Rengar's leap range is the same range (bigger if trinket buff is active) than the detection range. If you could actually use detection effectively against him it wouldn't be such an issue and you could still bait detection out.

RyzeReworkDec 29, 20151 votes

Its very easy to stop a rengar 1 have wards 2 wait for the ! To appearn over your head group up and he won't jump on you. iF you can't 1v1 rengar and ur off in a lane by yourself farming you deserved to die that's all I did as rengar one game sat in side lanes waiting for people to try to split and kill them over and over again

IAMS4T4NDec 29, 20151 votes

ok i dont see the problem

SmitemuffinDec 29, 20151 votes

I've been a big fan for a long time of giving Rengar the ability to pounce on targets stricken with bolas so his damage can be less front-loaded. His ult could then have more added to it, he wouldn't be totally worthless without it, he could lane again, AND he wouldn't be killing carries in .35 seconds

SpongebobIsLifeDec 29, 20152 votes

*0.01

aperson1Dec 29, 20151 votes

People would probably build him bruiser and kill people during his 1.75s root instead. Rengar's empowered Q also gives a lot of sustained damage even if people don't make much use of it.

Earl EulrichDec 29, 20151 votes

tank/bruiser rengar is still a great initiator if used right...

ImNotOriginal7Dec 30, 20151 votes

Good.

BoulderoxDec 30, 20151 votes

I still think part of the problem is http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/5/58/Thunderlord's_Decree_mastery_2016.png/revision/latest?cb=20151103094742 Give a champ that has fast attacks/skills a chance to do more for pressing buttons mid air....

agree with op...

but he has so much presence by not being anywhere which is Evelynn level BS....

OP: But pink ward and K

Reality: His jump range is the same if not longer than a pink ward can see... pink sight 1000 jump range 725... And we all know that item 3142 is core on this cat so 275 range is nothing to cover.

I do think he needs more than just his ! Like sion has his CROSS map engage, why doesn't rengar ROAR when he ults?

OP: but he's a hunter thats supposed to stalk his prey Reality: He is the best hunter, isn't half the fun when the prey know they are being stalked/followed/chased? instead of ! > DEATH .05 sec later... (but then again earning kills the honorable way are frowned upon in league)

Before Rengar NEEEDED to be fed to do this or was crap, because ASSASSINS should be risk/reward champs, but now that the game is carry central with very little tanks (even though tanks have higher win rates, look at win rate based on games... easier champions Volibear DrMundo Taric even have easier kits for players to pick up and have really strong gimmicks/cc/lockdowns, but lets pair winrate to k:d, the tanks didn't do all the killing... the carries did, the tanks caught them out for them to be murdered.)

But thanks to the BS mastery http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/5/58/Thunderlord's_Decree_mastery_2016.png/revision/latest?cb=20151103094742 anyone that builds a lot of ad.... COUGH COUGH ASSASSINS can do 30% of there ad (bonus) on top of there already high burst damage.... what could go wrong.

Plain and simple ult sound on top of the !, simple, effective, no nerfs to ratios, still viable, but instead you scare the shit out of every lane at once

kirbyzamaDec 30, 20151 votes

The only real problem with rengar is that he he negates a fed immobiles even if they position very well. Even if the adc/mage does everything right (let's be reasonable about numbers here) a 3/0 champ can be deleted by 1/3 rengar. The rengar dying afterwards means very little in this situation he did his job, the champ with the most gold is off the field and they weren't "out of position" he just ulted past the the front line and unless you spend 75g on a pink every minute he will get you eventually. It just feels wrong for a champ's contribution to the game to be negated completely, isn't that why assassin's don't like tahm kench? Your contribution becomes meaningless. The usual dynamic between carry and assassin (one trying to set u the kill while the other avoids) doesn't exist for rengar.

It would be nice if he had more power in his scaling and less in his bases to make him snowball reliant (and less likely to build tanky) but as it stands he already snowballs so that could make him stronger or bad based on the numbers and no matter how much I dislike a champ I never want them to be unplayable. I heard a suggestion that his ult should have a global noise or effect like nocturne so you can fall back or prepare before he shows up but that has the unfortunate implication of exerting global pressure for free and/or may actually make it to hard for rengar to function if he ults from far way making the long duration of the invis meaningless. Its kind of complicated if you think about it. As it stands, I would rather have rengar as he is then have him gutted.

FrickendaChickenDec 30, 20151 votes

Good warding however, can ruin a rengar, He is incredibly predictable if you know he is coming, he probably has 2 targets, and can reach 1. There are so many times where I've been able to knock him back as Vi JUST because I knew he was coming, we then collapsed on him and his team. THAT is his weakness (also not being able to kill more than 1 target reliably)

TheVoidBringerDec 30, 20151 votes

That's actualy what riot turned most champs that have stealth into, as they judged it is an unhealthy mecanic.

Fast assassination is common. Counterplayless and unpredictable murders (unless turning the summoner rift into a freaking Christamas tree from all the wards - which is impossible given the current vision limitations) are however hardly fair.

Pumpkìn SpiceDec 31, 20151 votes

Rengar needs a nerf, nothing like kha'zix tier nerf but a nerf to where he is not one shotting people within 0.01 second

AoracnaMar 16, 20161 votes

The problem with this champion is the combination of high burst damage and invisibility + gap closer. And his bust damage resides on in his empowered q, plus itemization (hydra for example). All of this makes him insanely unbalanced, and riot cant balance him by changing his numbers they have to change his kit, rework him.

One possible solution would be Ult consuming his ferocity, but he would loose his one shot potencial (no problem, give him more damage over time).