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Why Redemption and Locket are toxic and centralizing, with math

chipndip1··38 votes·4,604 views

item 3107 : 150 - 490 healing based on target level

item 3190 : 70 - 665 decaying shield based on your level

Both items work with heal/shield power

Ideal scenario: Level 18 (item 3107 + item 3504 + item 3222 + item 3190) = ((490 + (490 x .4)) + (665 + (665 x .4))) x 5 = 8085 effective sustain in a level 18 team fight with actives alone.

Less ideal: Level 18 (item 3107 + item 3504 + item 3222 + item 3190) = ((490 + (490 x .4)) + (665 + (665 x .4))) x 2 or 3 = 3234 to 4851 effective sustain in a level 18 team fight from actives alone on about half your team.

Less ideal version 2: Level 18 (item 3107 + item 3190) = ((490 + (490 x .1)) + (665 + (665 x .1))) x 5 = 6352 effective sustain in a level 18 team fight with minimal heal/shield stacking.

Less ideal version 2.5: Level 18 (item 3107 + item 3190) = ((490 + (490 x .1)) + (665 + (665 x .1))) x 2 or 3 = 2541 to 3811 effective sustain in a level 18 team fight with actives alone with minimal heal/shield stacking on half your team.

Now, I know that a support's level is going to be harder to build than anyone else, so obviously Redemption's values in an in-game scenario will lean towards the higher end of the spectrum than Locket's, and no, getting to level 18 isn't a guarantee every match, but here's the case in point: THIS IS A LOT OF EFFECTIVE HEALTH. Even without heal/shield stacking, it's a shit ton of effective health. There's a difference between wanting supports to feel meaningful and how you do it. This isn't encouraging support players to engage in the match and feel important. This is encouraging pressing 2 number buttons and giving your team like 2 tanks worth of health over the five of them before considering the champion's own possible sustain options. It makes sense, too, since Riot was trying to find out how they'd make supports not fall off by late game. This, however, is a stupid way to do it, and I'm a support main.

REMOVE these types of actives. Support will always be centralized around Locket as long as it's an aoe shield, and instead of learning this, Riot essentially made TWO LOCKETS. What on this green Earth is the name of the drug they were utilizing when coming up with these decisions, cause I wanna add it to my bucket list.

68 Comments

Seyfti12 votes

So I don't get it. Do the boards want people to play support or not?

Spicy Rice33 votes

People want supports, not a glorified holder of 2 items

chipndip12 votes

Basically this.

RedCyclone10 votes

Support main here This guy gets it, those 2 items are core on every support and are to be rushed after sighstone, unless your Brand or Lux

Seyfti1 votes

I guess, but I don't think removing the active parts of the items is a step in the right direction. Tweaking numbers might be the answer and not immediate nerf into the ground.

Quepha4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spicy Rice,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=idhuGnAF,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2017-01-07T20:01:12.618+0000)

People want supports, not a glorified ________

So how do you accomplish that?

Remove ward limits: Glorified ward dispensers. Supporty aura-esque items: Glorified trinket collectors. Making their kits strong enough to hold their own without xp and gold: They become too strong and create the most uninteractive solo lanes imaginable when they DO get access to xp and gold.

I honestly think the aura-christmas-tree idea sounds like the healthiest so far. You get to make strategic choices for the team based on what you're facing which seems like a fitting activity for the support position, the items can be balanced around only being strong on supports due to a lack of raw kit-enhancing stats that other champions want to buy to take advantage of their scaling.

I think the problems with this concept now are just: A) Locket and Redemption are fairly similar in their optimal scenarios. (Everyone is clustered together? Better press this button and hope its numbers are big enough to make a difference!) Everyone is kinda forgetting about the other options so it feels like we aren't actually hitting the 'strategic choice' goal yet. B) Locket and Redemption are the standout options for this class of item at the moment. You generally build both of them and the only question is "in what order?" so there's little game-to-game diversity. C) Locket, Redemption, and most other items that fall into this category are active items which are simply a pain in the ass to use, which is compounded as you get more and more active items increasing the complexity of your backpack. Say what you want about the un-interactive-ness of the old Aegis aura, but there was something comforting about seeing it in your inventory and knowing "This means I'm helping the team out right now!" without having to constantly remember to watch for a moment to use it.

IMO, Banner of Command and Zz'rot portal show the most potential for good "support" out-of-combat utility items as actives are way less stressful to use in out-of-combat situations while Zeke's Herald and Ardent Censer show the most potential for good in-combat items as they provide unique, benefical combat effects without adding more buttons for the player to remember during the most stressful part of a game.

TeCoolMage2 votes

ooh ooh I know

give them gold and exp so their kits are strong enough without needing to hold their own without gold and exp

or we can just continue making entire teams tanky with two button presses, either works.

RexSaur4 votes

{quoted}

So I don't get it. Do the boards want people to play support or not?

Yeah because making super overpowered items that are must buy (so it means supports have LESS choices to build rather than more since 2 items slots are always taken by those unless you're trolling) makes ppl WANT to play support, and not the other way around im right?

The Yetii Rider12 votes

As a support secondary I love Redemption. It genuinely makes me feel like I'm having a huge impact on the fight. I've been spamming heal power Nami and I have healed for over 1000 with a single cast of Redemption on a specific target (one person got healed for 1000+) on two occasions. It's a great feeling.

I don't see how Riot could have made an item that was healthier for the game than this. It has a delay, its telegraphed, and the AOE is visible to the enemy team.

I think Redemption is exactly as powerful as it needs to be.

DarkRitual2 votes

The only thing I would like to see nerfed on it (as a support main) is the cost. 2100 is very cheap, which is partly why it's getting bought on some other champs at times.

agbudar1 votes

thats the only thing that should be "nerfed/increased" its cost preff with about 300 gold

Morticianjohn1 votes

They could remove the damage on it. It feels like it should help your team more than hurt the enemy.

Zerenza1 votes

As an assassin who's job it is to murder the carry or support, redemption pisses me off. I just wish that it couldn't be used while dead because as an assassin in the past my thought is "Kill Raka, Sona or Nami then kill the carry after" but i can't do that because redemption let's you use it while dead which effectively makes every assassin that's not a Skirmisher too, completely useless.

I can deal with the massive heal, but if i have to deal with a 3000+ effective health ADC, you can deal with an assassin that can kill you because that's my job to remove key components from a fight without dying myself.

All in all i do think the item was needed but 3 things should be removed.

  1. Should not be able to be used while dead because it makes removing the Support from a fight pointless.
  2. Should not deal damage because there isn't a point
  3. This item is core on EVERY SINGLE support, a core item isn't 2100, it's 2600+ and for the amount of things it does, it should definitely be that price or much higher because i have never seen a support have to wait to get this item, they back once in lane and have it and that's not how a core item works.
The Yetii Rider1 votes

Having an action to use while dead is interesting though. It's a different experience, but a fun one. It's less tilting to die now because you are still focused on the game and waiting for the right spot and time to heal, instead of just raging at your team for failing you. As a support, not tilting is very important.

Zerenza1 votes

It's not fun for everyone else, infact it ruins the fun for many, fun doesn't matter in competitive. When an entire class is made borderline useless because another one has a specific item that's not fun, that's broken.

You shouldn't tilt from a death anyway, if you can tilt from a death you shouldn't play support because statistically you'll be dying more than anyone else on your team and there's good reason for that. Killing a support is extremely important for winning a teamfight right now and that's kind of cool considering Redemption made it so you can't ignore them like you used to. The fact of the matter is though that it doesn't matter if you kill them, they still get rewarded by being able to help while dead. The fact that it's more important than ever to remove a Support from the fight now, coupled with the fact that it doesn't matter if you do or not because redemption is useable while dead. Put's the enemy team in a no win situation, if they kill you they won't remove you from the fight anyway, but they have to kill you because if they don't you'll win the fight anyway.

Rememption does not need to be useable while dead, it's frustrating and makes an entire other class pointless unless their broken as fuck.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

"If you can tilt from a death you shouldn't play support anyway"

Riot has made it so at least 20% of the people playing support don't want to play it. Autofill, remember?

ModKnightsKemplar5 votes

I get why they are annoying, but I still feel it's a step in the right direction. There is always room for improvement, but I'm especially happy with Locket. I think the concept is a fun addition that can only improve with refinement.

And I admit, fully, that it needs refinement.

chipndip14 votes

It's a step in the right direction in the sense that they're interested in making support more potent. However, it shows just how badly Riot suffers from functional fixedness. They seemingly cannot make a strong, functional item without making it "Locket of the Iron Solari-ish", which is exactly what they did.

In my belief, I think more concentrated effects that are more tailored to specific champion play patterns will make for a more rewarding play experience. Like every other role.

ModKnightsKemplar2 votes

You're right.

I think the only difference is that I'm happy for them to give some items like this as long as they keep trying. Honestly, I don't think the new locket is crazy, by itself. It's made crazy by redemption. It wouldn't be a must-buy (I don't hink) if redemption weren't so strong and giving buffs to shields already.

For locket, it's really more about the combo. I think redemption is the problem.

Orangesilk3 votes

Well, they wanted supports to have an impact on the game and this is a great way to do it. The side effect is that hyper-carry type ADCs are getting too shielded while burst assassins suck, but that can be fixed otherwise.

If supports lost their ability to impact teamfights via shields/heal then we would see an endless stream of Zyra Brand Velkoz support, and no one wants that.

chipndip12 votes

I mean..."great" in terms of objective functionality, but not in terms of game health. Their goal of diversifying support itemization and increasing support player satisfaction was missed by 10 miles outside of those that already enjoyed abusing Locket and reactive game play. For them, they love these items. For everyone else, they hate it.

And supports don't just heal and shield all day, nor should people expect them to. We could emphasize other things that supports could be used for than just healing or shielding. Damage, roaming, debilitating...there's a ton of empty space we haven't explored in terms of what support itemization could delve into without overclocking on heals and shields.

Orangesilk1 votes

No, this is the thing, we've already been like 5 seasons where supports do EXCLUSIVELY debilitation (CC) and providing vision. The roaming support isn't a new concept, hell, for a while the only viable supports were those with enough CC to effectively roam.

The viability of the healing/shielding support is something Riot is experimenting with, and so far it's been interesting. You can still choose to play a CC roamer support. I mean, hell, Thresh, Alistar and Braum are still the golden boys of competitive. But now we are actually giving viability to other kinds of support.

Is Redemption over-tuned? Yeah it is, it's too good of a buy for most supports, it's stats probably need to be tweaked so that you're mainly buying it for the active and are sacrificing stats to get it. But it's a step in the right direction.

chipndip11 votes

What support item debilitates to begin with?

Champs are one thing, but itemization has largely revolved around Crucible and Locket up until now, and now it's Locket and Redemption. Unless I'm missing a few things, minus when FQC was blatantly op and everyone had one (but then we'd be forgetting about the massive mana regen it had at that time...like 150%).

There aren't many support items that do too much outside of sustain and cleansing, save ones that are straight up unused.

Orangesilk1 votes

Because you know what CC supports build? They build tanky so they can continue to be a nuisance for a long time. And they got new toys as well, Taric, Braum, Nautilus, are building item 3109 now. Damage supports? They build damage so they can scale into the lategame. What was a shielding support supposed to buy before the advent of items aimed at shielding and healing? Rabbadons? They built Locket/Crucible not because it had particular synergy with their kit, but because they were okay general utility items to slap of on top of a general utility champion.

You won't find items that debuff the enemy, nor champions that debuff the enemy anymore, because Riot has decided debuffs are unhealthy, invisible gameplay. So that train of thought goes nowhere.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Because you know what CC supports build? They build tanky so they can continue to be a nuisance for a long time. And they got new toys as well, Taric, Braum, Nautilus, are building item 3109 now.

But they build Locket/Redemption too, and those two items offer nothing but tank stats, save a lil regen. Everyone builds these two items, and they're way more influential than Knight's Vow will be due to the sheer upfront survivability they bring on cast.

Damage supports? They build damage so they can scale into the lategame.

About that: Zyra/Brand don't need to build much at all to hurt at most stages of the game. I've said it many times before, but their reworks put a good deal of damage dealing potential in how they're played, rather than what they build. Sure you need some ap, but your damage will be consistently apparent even when building at a slow pace, which is what Riot did intentionally, seeing how support items are increasingly more devoid of ap options, let alone any that aren't catered specifically to enchanters. Others like Veigar, Vel'Koz, and Malzahar aren't in such a comfy situation, but still.

What was a shielding support supposed to buy before the advent of items aimed at shielding and healing? Rabbadons? They built Locket/Crucible not because it had particular synergy with their kit, but because they were okay general utility items to slap of on top of a general utility champion.

Like I said, general utility that you'd have to be dumb to skip no matter who you were, but in this case, a cleanse and an aoe shield. Now it's just an aoe shield and an aoe heal now that the cleanse doesn't have a heal. The point is that these items are too generalized in power. Having items that help the defensive enchanter niche is fine, but not when you take the entire roster and shove them in their camp in the process, which is what these items are doing.

You won't find items that debuff the enemy, nor champions that debuff the enemy anymore, because Riot has decided debuffs are unhealthy, invisible gameplay. So that train of thought goes nowhere.

That's actually a major issue I have with Riot right now. It tunnels us into a ton of overlap when it comes to what we can do with support champions and their itemization.

Orangesilk1 votes

Yeah, right now tanky supports build Locket/Redemption because they're too stat efficient on top of their actives. I'd suggest lowering their base stats enough that only dedicated shield/healer supports pick them up. But that's a balance matter, one that can be fixed. A small buff to Knights Vow would be interesting too, or shifting Zeke's harbinger to a more tank-oriented item would be interesting too, for the 'Tanky partner' idea.

No, you guys keep saying it when it's not happening, Brand, Zyra and Vel'Koz are building primarily Magic Pen to work with their high base damages, along with Rylais to put some utility on those damage spells. Mages on the botlane are NOT building Locket/Redemption at all. They could? Yeah, just like I could build a Zhonyas on Jinx, but it wouldn't be particularly efficient seeing how they NEED that Magic Pen to be relevant in the lategame.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

Except Zyra, brand, and squid rely on high base damage. Locket and redemption (the big two) are perfectly fine on them in the support role.

Orangesilk1 votes

Funny, because they don't ever build them.

Look at the builds, almost every Brand player goes item 3116 item 3151 item 3020 item 3135 Because MPen IS the best way to capitalize on high base damages.

Same goes for Vel'Koz or Zyra, they itemize as mages, and often deal as much damage as the midlaner.

macromite2 votes

3000 isn't even a third of what a tank should have at the late stages of the game in effective.

Asayake 5150glow2 votes

{quoted}

3000 isn't even a third of what a tank should have at the late stages of the game in effective.

It's a ton for the squishies, though.

macromite1 votes

eh, it's about average actually.

Course it's adding basic health to them, which is bad, but considering how lifesteal is still a mechanic that is available to all auto attack based classes this is practically a non-issue. it's just easier to see.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

eh, it's about average actually.

Course it's adding basic health to them, which is bad, but considering how lifesteal is still a mechanic that is available to all auto attack based classes this is practically a non-issue. it's just easier to see.

Well tbh this whole thing is kinda screwed, because of the fact that it's 4k health over multiple targets, not all on the adc or tank.

chipndip12 votes

Probably should have worded it better, but the point is that you get a ton of health back. The amount you'd see on like, two full build tanks sporting 4k each.

macromite1 votes

no, I worded it perfectly

There is a keyword that you likely do not understand.

Effective health, abbreviated to effective with the context that I Was talking about the health stat.

Effective health is health+(health*(armor or mr value/100)) It is used as a method of determining the value of damage one can take before they die. It's actually pretty important to learn if you want to try and build a tank.

EDIT: also should mention that tanks can be expected to get around 15K if a game lasts long enough.

chipndip11 votes

I meant I didn't word what I meant correctly.

macromite1 votes

oh...

I'm smart. don't worry. <.<

Meep Man2 votes

Yeah, I kind of saw Locket getting used too much when they announced the numbers. Basically putting Lucio's ultimate in Overwatch into an item is pretty stupid. I didn't know what to think of Redemption since it was a new item, but it obviously also is too good compared to other Support items.

To be honest, the issue isn't that these items are necessarily TOO good, just that they are far too general in use. Every Support can use them effectively due to the incredibly global stats they provide. Even Tanks can use them great.

chipndip12 votes

This is actually my main point I'm trying to get across. The actives and stats are just fit all stat combos rather than something that feels personalized to the types of champion classes you see as supports, which is the exact opposite of what we expect for any other role's itemization. I'm just glad a thread I've made on the topic has finally generated some conversation about it, because it's something I think a lot of people and Riot themselves have severely overlooked.

Requiemsfire2 votes

Though it's really cool to see proper support itemization in the game.

Nymzo2 votes

If only they would actually buff and rework the very old supports instead of giving us 2 broken items...

Teémò1 votes

Without a doubt every urf game everyone will have these 2 items.

chipndip12 votes

What's the cd on them in URF?

Clementine1 votes

If you nerf Locket (again) or Redemption without buffing anything else for supports, both ADC and Support will be truly useless and make an even less of an impact on the game they already are.

Kubox5 votes

That's the thing though, supports can't be buffed because those items exist.

Supports are currently stuck in a position that is not item-reliant but also has access to some of, if not the most powerful active items in the game.

Stop making supports rely on Actives to be relevant. As long as powerful actives exists, the support meta is always gonna be "who can use the active better" and the random mage or two. Once those are removed, Riot can finally look into giving them much stronger/unique kits.

Once those reworks are done, they can look into giving supports more xp through items instead, having them rely a lot more on their own raw scaling utility and stats rather than hoping they somehow snowball for some reason.

Teridax681 votes

I feel the issue is a bit more nuanced than that, though: currently, we're at a stage where support item actives are making the individual champions practically irrelevant, but the actives themselves are fun and feel powerful. For sure, they could use a nerf, but beyond that, the real problem with support itemization is that it doesn't enhance the power of support kits themselves. The healing and shielding passive is a good start, but it only covers a small subset of what supports can do, and we still have far too many support items saddled with unsatisfying amounts of defensive stats and regen, instead of stats that are more directly beneficial to enchanters.

I'd like to keep those item actives, but I also want to see support items truly empower the champions they're catering to, instead of just giving them tons of regen they don't necessarily want while they wait to build up towards the mandatory item actives. It's not a good sign to see tanky support items like Locket and Redemption become essential on caster supports like Janna or Nami, but currently their stats aren't that different from those on, say, Talisman of Ascension, or even Sightstone (in fact, they're significantly better). Enchanters should not be made to build defensive stats, they need a stat of their own that they can use to make themselves stronger, mainly by enhancing all of the utility they can bring, and not just their sustain.

Dengeden1 votes

Yes shields are toxic but they're part of the necessary evil called "everyone needs to be a little tanky somehow". And of course, using your logic, Kayle ult, Zil ult and GA are toxic because they effectively give infinite health while active.

What on this green Earth is the name of the drug they were utilizing when coming up with these decisions, cause I wanna add it to my bucket list.

Nice math.

chipndip11 votes

The issue comes from fixing a problem by overclocking a possible solution. Sustain isn't "bad" for the game as a concept, but when they mitigate item diversity because of just how useful they are, that's one problem. When it adds up to be this potent even on champions that, on their own, have no business healing or shielding anyone, you get an idea of just how overdone having potent aoe benefits independent of a champ kit really are. Strong sustain that's bound to a kit is balanced around the notion that the kit has its own built-in weaknesses. Strong sustain as a bunch of "one size fits all" items bypasses that fact with extremely convenient stats thrown in as a bonus. You could say "By buying these, you didn't buy those", but these two items are so strong in comparison it's rare that someone gets buyer's remorse over it. If one were to ask me, I'd either remove the items or drastically change how the actives/stats work so they aren't so potent per cast and actually fit a sub set of champions rather than making every support want them.

Dengeden1 votes

{quoted}

The issue comes from fixing a problem by overclocking a possible solution. Sustain isn't "bad" for the game as a concept, but when they mitigate item diversity because of just how useful they are, that's one problem.

There's always an optimal build. And as such it "mitigates item diversity". That in and of itself might be a problem but it's definitely not something unique to Locket and Redemption. It's certainly not something you can fix by removing them from the picture.

When it adds up to be this potent even on champions that, on their own, have no business healing or shielding anyone, you get an idea of just how overdone having potent aoe benefits independent of a champ kit really are.

Not really, supports have always bought items with individually powerful actives and auras regardless of their QWER because their kits don't scale well with items. (Provided they aren't lane bullies, and even then).

Furthermore, as I said, every champion, regardless of class, benefits from defensive stats.

Strong sustain that's bound to a kit is balanced around the notion that the kit has its own built-in weaknesses.

Locket and Redemption have ultimate-like CDs and the latter has a huge delay.

Strong sustain as a bunch of "one size fits all" items bypasses that fact with extremely convenient stats thrown in as a bonus. You could say "By buying these, you didn't buy those", but these two items are so strong in comparison it's rare that someone gets buyer's remorse over it.

You never had "buyer's remorse" with support items. They're cheap and effective at what they do, that's their thing.

If one were to ask me, I'd either remove the items or drastically change how the actives/stats work so they aren't so potent per cast and actually fit a sub set of champions rather than making every support want them.

Why? They have counterplay. You can wait them out, tank stats fall off as the game progresses and they have their aforementioned CDs. I don't see an issue with them being regular buys.

chipndip11 votes

The point is that, in a strategy game, it's bad design to have specific strategies be overwhelming in comparison to other possible ones, and this type of massive sustain is nearly impossible to compete with with other items/item combos unless we make them blatantly op as well. On top of that, supports do rely on actives and passives, but it shouldn't be to the point where the actives start to blur the lines of the purpose of your champ pick. What you're saying here is that having one static strategy that's always present for multiple champion classes within a role is healthy and non-problematic, and by that standard things like IBG/Sunfire on every melee champion was also "fine".

Raxistaicho1 votes

Apparently even non-supports are starting to take these two.

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