@Reds / @Meddler, How do YOU feel about patch 5.5?

InSingedWeTrust··12 votes·14,966 views

I know the big mission with these changes (and S5 as a whole) was to create jungler diversity, which this patch seems to have finally accomplished. We've seen some of the most entertaining eSports games to date just in the past couple days with fresh picks galore. The great majority of the community seems to be supportive of these changes. But aside from the initial question, I have some others.

Do you feel patch 5.5 is your "Mission Accomplished" as far as jungler diversity goes? How do you feel about the recent eSports picks? With "League of Tanks" making a comeback, will some top laners also receive some well deserved love? Are there any other significant jungle changes we can expect?

55 Comments

RiotMeddler19 votes

My personal take is that 5.5 seems to have been very positive for the game, at least so far. Haven't had a chance to make it through all the recent competitive games yet, heartening to see some champs played that haven't been seen there in quite a while though. Hope at least some of that increase in diversity's maintained.

I wouldn't say 5.5 was 'mission accomplished' though, just a piece of the puzzle. One of the next things we're looking at is some further work on the jungle items (Skirmisher's and Poacher's aren't used much at the moment and there good reasons for that - they're generally pretty overshadowed).

ABlueQuaker19 votes

I dare say the only group of Junglers you've left out are mages. Tanks clear by soaking up damage and AoE DoT'ing camps down over time with abilities and Cinderhulk, AD Champions AA camps down, and Mages go OOM trying to spam abilities to clear then end up with nothing in reserve when they go to gank a lane.

Please change Magus next and give it Mana drain or something.

Magus is the proverbial Double Doran's Rings of the Jungle, or the Jungler's alternative to Morello's/Athene's - just with no mana sustain at all.

Spacesuit Spiff1 votes

Well, there are also assassins Khazix but they build Warriors.

Aside from what you mentioned, what I'd like to see come back to the jungle is dedicated counterjunglers. Right now, counterjungling is high risk low reward for a variety of reasons (trinkets, wolf smite, s4 changes to jungle exp, buffs being pretty irrelevant compared to previous seasons, etc). I just played as Nautilus against Nunu which should have been a nightmare matchup, but because of what's happened to counterjungling Nunu might as well have not even been in the game, even though he did the Nunu thing reasonably well.

Bring back counterjungling because it's fun and often very intense (farming devourer stacks can stay out of the meta though).

MrBuffington1 votes

Just so you know, that's also a pretty huge buff to jungle Nidalee, which is a pretty bad idea imo, she's already plenty strong. Most mages that jungle that I've seen, notably Fiddlesticks and Karthus, seem to do fine with sustain from Rangers, blue buff, and a tear if necessary. Magus is already incredibly gold efficient, and I don't think the necessary jungler item should just solve all the junglers problems, especially when there are cheap mana regen options already in the store, like tear or idol, or even double dorans

SmokingPuffin4 votes

Most mages that jungle that I've seen, notably Fiddlesticks and Karthus, seem to do fine

You understand the flaw in this reasoning, right? You only see a few mages jungle because the rest can't handle the mana requirements.

Troy2426216 votes

Exactly. Who knows who may become viable. Hell Brand has % max HP shredding and strong CC, would have fast clears if not for mana issues. His mana running dry turns him from

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ltsoagX3Hw1qlmow4o1_500.jpg

Into

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/lasmacabrasaventurasdebillyymandy/images/a/a6/Toadblatt_anciano.png/revision/latest?cb=20090516232400&path-prefix=es

Jeddy0171 votes

So,what if Riot just buff those mage junglers? That way we don't make the already strong Ap junglers (Fuck Nidalee ) even stronger but can still make the other AP junglers,who are struggling in the jungle, better.

Though I have to ask who are the AP junglers.Besides the few you mentioned,the only ones I can think of are Elise (though most build her tanky) Evelynn Diana Gragas Kayle TwistedFate (good old UOL).Who are the other AP junglers?

MrBuffington1 votes

TF was played as on-hit TF, not AP TF (ie built attack speed and on hit effects, instead of AP).

They're talking about bringing stuff like Brand, Karma, Morgana, etc. into jungle, which can either already work, or be made to work through changes with itemization/runes/masteries/playing more intelligently, or they have larger issues that mana regen alone wouldn't even touch.

SmokingPuffin1 votes

I would rather get mana sustain into a reasonable place for junglers in general, then nerf the outliers. More efficient to make system level changes, then nerf a couple, than it is to buff tons of mages into jungle viability without breaking them for laning.

MrBuffington2 votes

No, you only see a few mages in junglers because there's actually a reason for taking them into jungle besides "lol i feel like it" or "lol champion diversity". Squishy, damage focused champions in general (there are some exceptions) have issues in jungle; this is the same reason you don't see ADCs or a lot of assassins in jungle (and no, mana is not an issue for ADCs, Zed, Akali, etc. lol).

If you're having trouble with early clear, hey, Magus isn't going to do jack to help you. If you're having trouble sustaining mana later in the game, hey, maybe you should have built some mana regen instead of seven deathcaps and complaining that mages have mana issues. If you're having mana issues, take Rangers' smite, smite your blue, build a tear or forbidden idol after your t2 machete upgrade before you finish magus, and if you're really spam heavy, change up your runes and masteries. If mana is really the only issue preventing mages from jungling, there are plenty of ways around it; the fact that there are mages (pretty mana hungry mages at that) that successfully jungle is a testament to that.

It's like complaining that Cinderhulk doesn't also give armor and MR, plus tenacity and CDR. For real, there are other items in the game, people, no one's forcing you down a single build path

SmokingPuffin1 votes

{quoted}

No, you only see a few mages in junglers because there's actually a reason for taking them into jungle besides "lol i feel like it" or "lol champion diversity". Squishy, damage focused champions in general (there are some exceptions) have issues in jungle; this is the same reason you don't see ADCs or a lot of assassins in jungle (and no, mana is not an issue for ADCs, Zed, Akali, etc. lol).

Let me be clear. Here are some junglers that make sense in the role, but you currently can't play because of mana issues: Azir Diana Swain Malzahar Lissandra

I really don't like this theory that squishy, damage-focused champions should generally not jungle. I want the strategic diversity that was proposed in the season 5 changes. I think the game gets better if you can play assassins and mages in the role without feeling like an idiot, and it opens up new possibilities for how to play mid and top lane too.

If you're having trouble with early clear, hey, Magus isn't going to do jack to help you. If you're having trouble sustaining mana later in the game, hey, maybe you should have built some mana regen instead of seven deathcaps and complaining that mages have mana issues. If you're having mana issues, take Rangers' smite, smite your blue, build a tear or forbidden idol after your t2 machete upgrade before you finish magus, and if you're really spam heavy, change up your runes and masteries. If mana is really the only issue preventing mages from jungling, there are plenty of ways around it; the fact that there are mages (pretty mana hungry mages at that) that successfully jungle is a testament to that.

I don't think making Magus enchantment the answer to mana sustain will work. I just think there's a real problem here.

I think your proposed solutions for mana sustain aren't worth the cost. Better to take another jungler as the game is designed today.

MrBuffington2 votes
  • Azir doesn't make sense as a jungler to me; he has so many advantages in lane and is too item reliant to be an effective jungler. I've seen NB3 play him when he first came out, honestly it was pretty underwhelming.

  • Diana does fine in jungle; she doesn't even build mana as it stands now and she seems to do just fine, especially since a lot of her clear is based on her attack speed and passive.

  • Swain always has mana issues, even if he's a laner; the issue is more with Swain than with jungle mana sustain.

  • I've seen AD Malzahar jungle wreck people already, he just builds a Tear and he's good to go. I don't really see the reasoning behind bringing AP Malzahar into jungle.

  • Never seen Lissandra jungle, I suspect you just play around your passive better and you'll be fine, worse case build an idol/morellonomicon, she already needs CDR

My thing is, I don't see the reason for just randomly throwing champions into jungle for "lol champion diversity". Mages as a class aren't well suited for jungle, much like ADCs they're pretty gold reliant, as well as exp reliant, both of which are pretty lacking in jungle. Their damage is largely ability focused, much like a lot of tank junglers, so their clear speed is innately lackluster compared to AD champs, not to mention they're not even tanky to be able to sustain damage like tank junglers (plus they nerfed that soft leashing since it was pretty abusive).

If you can make a case for a particular champion, sure, buff them to better be able to jungle if they can't already (or can't perform at a high level equal to their peers). I don't really see mana sustain as a huge issue, and if it is, it's not exclusive to mages nor the issue that prevents a lot of mages from jungling, and even so, not one that can't be worked around, even if you might dislike the costs. I'm sure every single mid lane mage in the game would love to be able to skip Athene's/Morellonomicon and just build pure damage/utility while getting mana sustain and CDR for free; there are pros and cons to virtually everything in this game, sometimes you have to learn how to min/max your builds and playstyle in order to do what you want, instead of just praying for Riot to give you a free lunch.

SmokingPuffin1 votes

Never seen Lissandra jungle, I suspect you just play around your passive better and you'll be fine, worse case build an idol/morellonomicon, she already needs CDR

Any jungle build that doesn't involve finishing your jungler item first is inefficient. This is why the fix for tank junglers was to make a new tank jungler item, rather than say pushing the Sunfire line as an early buy. This is also why, if you want Magus to be a thing on more than just a couple champs, you need to have mana itemization in its build path.

As for the part about playing around her passive better, I recommend you take Lissandra into a custom game and try to clear the jungle for a few minutes. One free spell every 18 seconds is totally not going to cut it.

My thing is, I don't see the reason for just randomly throwing champions into jungle for "lol champion diversity". Mages as a class aren't well suited for jungle, much like ADCs they're pretty gold reliant, as well as exp reliant, both of which are pretty lacking in jungle.

Some mages are high gold, high exp champions. Quite a few aren't. We run many mages as supports because they are quite good at providing utility without needing a ton of resources to be effective.

Their damage is largely ability focused, much like a lot of tank junglers, so their clear speed is innately lackluster compared to AD champs, not to mention they're not even tanky to be able to sustain damage like tank junglers (plus they nerfed that soft leashing since it was pretty abusive).

Do you think it's desirable for AD to be inherently superior to AP for jungling? It wasn't always this way. It doesn't have to be this way.

I'm sure every single mid lane mage in the game would love to be able to skip Athene's/Morellonomicon and just build pure damage/utility while getting mana sustain and CDR for free; there are pros and cons to virtually everything in this game, sometimes you have to learn how to min/max your builds and playstyle in order to do what you want, instead of just praying for Riot to give you a free lunch.

It's not a matter of altering my playstyle; for most mages, there is no playstyle that works well enough to be competitive. The tools currently in the game for jungle mana sustain simply don't support most AP champions in the jungle.

This is a new problem. Didn't exist in season 4, because Spirit Stone was a thing.

GinoSoldier1 votes

One mage in particular i find does very well in the jungle is Orianna, between her passive and the ball's Q and E, there's really no problem clearing any camps at any time. The issue with her comes more when it's time to gank, unless she has an engage heavy team (hello Malphite/Yasuo/Leona), she can't really usually pull off good ganks. That, and as a mage, she's slow but that's a given until you can afford to spam W.

That said, i always find it a bit sad to build the Magus enchant because it brings nothing something else can't give, in the end.

MrBuffington1 votes

You could probably have a lot of success with Lulu if you want; her autos also deal a lot of damage because of her passive, plus she has a ton of utility and flexibility in her builds that she can do a lot with a little of gold.

That said, i always find it a bit sad to build the Magus enchant because it brings nothing something else can't give, in the end.

I mean, you can say the same thing about Warrior enchant. It's basically a brutalizer with a bit more AD.

MrBuffington3 votes

Any jungle build that doesn't involve finishing your jungler item first is inefficient. This is why the fix for tank junglers was to make a new tank jungler item, rather than say pushing the Sunfire line as an early buy.

This is a really narrow way to look at the game; if you look at S4 Rengar builds, you'd often go madreds -> mobi boots, a lot of pro junglers didn't even finish their jungler item. And this is the build that would allow Rengar to snowball out of control.

Also putting your completed jungle item on hold to buy a tear is vastly different than trying to build a whole sunfire cape; that's why they also introduced an intermediate sunfire-esque item in bami's cinder instead of just putting sunfire cape's effect onto the jungle item.

As for the part about playing around her passive better, I recommend you take Lissandra into a custom game and try to clear the jungle for a few minutes. One free spell every 18 seconds is totally not going to cut it.

I'm saying you have to learn to use it better. Or build mana regen. Her passive has built in CDR that allows her to have it up more frequently; if that's still not enough, that's why you build mana regen or take regen blues instead of CDR since you can build morello's and have 40% with magus.

As a jungler you're always scrapping together items since you have innately less gold and exp income than a laner; it's naive to expect to have identical impact as a laner when you innately have fewer resources to work with; you have to adapt to the role, it isn't just a plug and play thing. Example: Top lane Olaf builds a lot of damage, jungle Olaf builds pure tank. Jungle Lissandra is never going to do as much damage as lane Lissandra unless she's stupidly fed, so you focus on other aspects she can bring to the table, namely her CC (in which case having CDR is vital).

Some mages are high gold, high exp champions. Quite a few aren't. We run many mages as supports because they are quite good at providing utility without needing a ton of resources to be effective.

And many of them function fine currently as junglers too, it's just you have to adapt them to the role. If you're playing support Morgana, you think it's efficient for her to build sightstone? No, she could deal a ton more damage and have a ton more utility in fights by just saving that gold for a different item; the reason you build it is because it's a necessary component of that role. You bring Morgana into the jungle, you have to find a way to adapt her to the jungle instead of just expecting to play her like lane Morgana without any difference. Other elements of her kit will be emphasized, damage is most likely not the prime concern (especially since it will always be less than a lane Morgana's, as I mentioned with Lissandra, since you innately have less gold income).

Do you think it's desirable for AD to be inherently superior to AP for jungling? It wasn't always this way. It doesn't have to be this way.

I think it's really limited to think of this game in terms of AD and AP; think about your champion and why you're actually playing them in a certain role. Honestly look at the champions being played in jungle and why they're there: do you see a lot of glass cannon AD champions going in jungle? No. It's basically Shaco and Master Yi (to which I counter with Fiddlesticks and Karthus). What makes you think glass cannon AP champions should be an exception? Most of the AD champions are bruisers or off-tanks, most of the AP champions are tanks; if anything there's just a lack of AP bruisers in the champion roster (the ones I can think of are Diana, Gragas, and Nidalee; guess what, they're junglers).

This is a new problem. Didn't exist in season 4, because Spirit Stone was a thing.

And Rangers + Blue buff smite + forbidden Idol are things in season 5. There are ways to adapt to the game. If it were the case that you've exhausted every single option and still have no way of functioning as a mage jungler, go ahead and complain away, but I suspect that's not the case because I've seen mages work in jungle (I'm not even talking about just Fiddlesticks and Karthus). Yes, I know the jungle is mathematically more difficult in s5; I don't think it's so bad that you can't make things work.

Moreover, I don't really see jungle mages as an entire class as something that Riot needs to devote time and effort to blanket-supporting, especially where there are larger issues, especially since the rewards to promoting the entire class of champions seem pretty vacuous, and especially when it's still possible to make your off-meta build work given the tools available. Again, if you want a specific champion to be able to jungle more effectively, go ahead and and make an argument for them specifically. I think it's irresponsible and ill advised to have a massive blanket buff if you just want to support a tiny niche aspect of the game.

SmokingPuffin1 votes

This is a really narrow way to look at the game; if you look at S4 Rengar builds, you'd often go madreds -> mobi boots, a lot of pro junglers didn't even finish their jungler item. And this is the build that would allow Rengar to snowball out of control.

The S5 jungle enchants are so efficient as to be the only thing you can build first in any rational jungler build. For example, as an AD jungler, blue smite into cutlass is obviously incorrect. Brutalizer is the only correct choice, because warrior is supremely gold efficient given that you have bought a jungler item.

The jungle items from S4 didn't have this problem.

Most of the AD champions are bruisers or off-tanks, most of the AP champions are tanks

This is an accurate description of what currently is. It doesn't have to be this way. Making the jungle the province of only a specific subset of champions is one of the big reasons why DotA meta feels so much more open than LoL meta.

The jungle meta heavily influences the lane meta. If only one kind of jungler can be played, that means that only laners who synergize well with that type of jungler can be played.

And Rangers + Blue buff smite + forbidden Idol are things in season 5. There are ways to adapt to the game. If it were the case that you've exhausted every single option and still have no way of functioning as a mage jungler, go ahead and complain away

If you buy ranger's, take all the blues, and get an early idol chain item, you are obviously less useful than the meta junglers.

I've seen mages work in jungle

Where? I'd wager it's not at any interesting level of play.

Again, if you want a specific champion to be able to jungle more effectively, go ahead and and make an argument for them specifically. I think it's irresponsible and ill advised to have a massive blanket buff if you just want to support a tiny niche aspect of the game.

From my perspective, Magus doesn't work in the same way that Juggernaut didn't work. For tanks, the problem was that buying Juggernaut didn't help with clears. For mages, it's that buying Magus doesn't offer them enough mana to clear. This is the same core problem, and the same type of solution will work.

MrBuffington1 votes

The S5 jungle enchants are so efficient as to be the only thing you can build first in any rational jungler build.

...??? You build whatever you need in a certain situation. If you're vs. a mage mid lane and you're just getting poked out and bullied, you don't just blindly go morellonomicon because you saw it in LCS, you suck up the extra couple hundred gold to go chalice for the MR. It's the same thing. You buy situationally, that's how the game has always worked. You buy boots when you actually need boots. You buy wards when you need wards (which is pretty much always). You buy defense when you need defense. It's the same thing for regen. I'm not saying you complete morellonomicon, I'm saying you buy a cheap intermediate item that helps you play your role more effectively. You have six item slots for a reason, they're a resource that you use to be as effective as possible in your role.

Where? I'd wager it's not at any interesting level of play.

Watch NB3 do his A-Z series; he plays every "jungler" (he's got a loose definition of who can jungle, so he's playing stuff like Brand as a jungler) in challenger or high diamond mmr on smurfs. Is it going to be as straightforward as a typical jungler? No, but is it playable and able to succeed? Absolutely, you just have to know how to play

From my perspective, Magus doesn't work in the same way that Juggernaut didn't work. For tanks, the problem was that buying Juggernaut didn't help with clears. For mages, it's that buying Magus doesn't offer them enough mana to clear. This is the same core problem, and the same type of solution will work.

From my perspective, there isn't enough incentive to take mages into the jungle, aside from a few obvious examples. What is an underfed mage going to offer that a tank or bruiser couldn't do better? There are always going to be certain champions that are better suited for particular roles than others, that's just a fact of the game. I think there are more pressing issues preventing a lot of mages from being god-tier junglers than just mana sustain; I'd say it's actually fairly low on the list of concerns, especially given all the methods of dealing with it.

Here's the difference between magus and juggernaut; tanks as a class were struggling in jungle compared to bruisers; that isn't the case with mages. Sure Sejuani was pretty strong, but no where near as strong as Fiddlesticks was in jungle (before Cinderhulk, Sejuani was sitting at like, 51-52% win rate in plat+ IIRC; Fiddlesticks has been at ~55%+ for like a year). Mages in jungle suffer more on an individual level than tank junglers; the solution therefore is, if you want to support a jungle playstyle, buff them individually rather than just making a blanket buff that will throw already balanced champions way out of whack. Simply buffing mana in jungle isn't suddenly going to make Malzahar jungle a pro pick. If you actually want these champions to be junglers, give them a legitimate way to succeed; mana isn't going to do enough, especially without harming the rest of the game environment.

SmokingPuffin1 votes

You are making mistakes in your item builds. Your results will improve if you:

  • Stop building components for multiple items before finishing one
  • Always rush your jungle item
  • Never rush chalice

I don't think further discussion on this topic is productive.

MrBuffington1 votes

Stop thinking about item builds as some kind of dogma, this isn't smite, there's no auto buy function in this game.

Yes you typically want to focus on building one item at a time, but you want to know what else is ideal? Not running oom because you're too stubborn to deviate from some narrow build path you found on freaking mobafire.

This is the difference between high Elo players and low Elo players. Low Elo players come on reddit and whine at riot every time they lose a game, high Elo players learn the game and figure out how to make things work.

EDIT: I'm in no way saying I'm a high elo player; I suck crap at this game, but I'm learning from smarter players, not just your random one trick pony elo booster diamond player, but players and coaches who really understand the game and know how to break things down. My individual ideas might suck at times (again, I suck at this game), but the concepts still ring true.

Minrog1 votes

I think Mana Regeneration is an issue facing all of the mage characters, not just the jungle ones. Even in your list of viable junglers you've mentioned that they require Blue buff + tear for the entire game to function. Which means you assume the mid laner is a mana-less assassin or has a mana regain mechanic?

Note that I'm in agreement that being a mage doesn't necessitate a special jungle item, just that mages as a kind of character are really shitty now with the mana regen options.

I think it's worth mentioning that characters like Elise Evelynn Khazix have been ruined. They are very weak in the jungle but they also can't go into any lane atm. Hoping jungle diversity makes them viable again someday.

MrBuffington1 votes

Even in your list of viable junglers you've mentioned that they require Blue buff + tear for the entire game to function.

I wasn't so much saying that they require it so much as offering a variety of options for people trying to play a certain champion in jungle. I also agree that mana regen is worse early for mages than it was in season 4, but I've never found it to be a problem, especially not one that can't be worked around with smarter play and planning; there are options in the game (ones that don't even require a huge trade-off or anything), if the player isn't taking those options, it's their fault, not the game's.

I think it's worth mentioning that characters like [elise, eve, kha] have been ruined.

Kha'Zix is perfectly fine. I'm serious. Go watch NB3 play him, he's got like a 60% win rate in mid-high challenger on him. People keep thinking Kha'Zix is useless because you actually have to be smart about how you play him now.

Elise and Eve have been gutted, plain and simple. I expect them to receive a steady stream of buffs throughout the year once Riot figures out what to do with them. It isn't an issue of jungle diversity, it's an issue of Riot butchering two champions and not giving them anything in return. Honestly I see Eve getting more buffs if Mandrake Ward comes out, and Elise might be in line for a light rework. That's my guess.

Great Justice1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Red Arrow,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iZVXNjno,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-03-23T07:22:08.444+0000)

I dare say the only group of Junglers you've left out are mages. Tanks clear by soaking up damage and AoE DoT'ing camps down over time with abilities and Cinderhulk, AD Champions AA camps down, and Mages go OOM trying to spam abilities to clear then end up with nothing in reserve when they go to gank a lane.

Please change Magus next and give it Mana drain or something.

Magus is the proverbial Double Doran's Rings of the Jungle, or the Jungler's alternative to Morello's/Athene's - just with no mana sustain at all.

I like this idea a lot. Meddler can we buff Jungle Ziggs?

Jay Kenton1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Red Arrow,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iZVXNjno,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-03-23T07:22:08.444+0000)

I dare say the only group of Junglers you've left out are mages. Tanks clear by soaking up damage and AoE DoT'ing camps down over time with abilities and Cinderhulk, AD Champions AA camps down, and Mages go OOM trying to spam abilities to clear then end up with nothing in reserve when they go to gank a lane.

Please change Magus next and give it Mana drain or something.

Magus is the proverbial Double Doran's Rings of the Jungle, or the Jungler's alternative to Morello's/Athene's - just with no mana sustain at all.

Meanwhile Devourer.

GinoSoldier1 votes

Posted here for a lack of a better place;

On Twisted Treeline, one cannot buy a Needlessly Large Rod while building Luden's Echo. I figure it was disabled a while ago with Wooglet's Witchcap no longer needing it, but now either Luden's build path should be altered, or the Rod re-enabled so the game can function properly.

Also, on DJ Sona, on the first swap of music only, as far as i can tell, there is a very short but very noticeable lag spike that affects my enire team. That bug happened every time on the Rift so far.

Concerning the League of Tanks; I for one am very happy. I always felt it was silly a champion with the right items could murder a tank so fast they became irrelevant. An assassin for one (i think, anyway) should be generally unable to kill a full health tank in one full combo only. I'm actually more worried about Tanks dealing too much damage to the squishies. Things like Trinity Force and Botrk on some tanks are maybe... too fantastic sometimes?

Kouga8 votes

Just because a Red comments doesn't mean you need to, or should, post all of your own concerns just to try to get their attention. It just overcrowds the post and thread that they commented in. Conversations should try to stay relevant to the topic being discussed unless the general conversation shifts together.

ProfDrDeath2 votes

item 3715 : I generally feel like the item is more "underused" instead of really "underpowered". If you don't need the extra gap-closing/sticking power from Stalker's or the sustain from Ranger's, but would rather like some more survivability against a specific target, you buy Skirmisher's.

I recently saw it quite a bit in competitive games, actually. For example, this weekend's UoL games and WFX vs T8.

Spacesuit Spiff2 votes

Build it on tanks and slap people to death.

No, really.

I was keeping a list of the people I've 1v1d as Nautilus since I noticed the power of red smite, and now I've lost track Zed Fizz Vi Leblanc LeeSin and more or less all the adcs.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

Poacher Smited and Exhausted a Katarina. She ulted and I laughed.

AbrahamBaconham1 votes

Interesting... for whatever reason I'd just always assumed that it'd be most effective on Assassin junglers, and since I don't play them often, never really tried it. Definitely gonna have to give it a go on Sion and Nautilus.

Chessburger1 votes

Doing it with assassins makes no sense. The item needs a bigger time span to have it's effect and it reduces damage done to you. Assassins tend to dispose of their targets rather quickly so, unless you mess up, the damage reduction and a tiny amount of true damage won't do much.

Something like a nunu is a god with that item. E snowball slows so you can stick and slows their attack speed and the skirmisher reduces their damage by 20%, and you usually build frozen heart so that's another 20% attack speed slow. An AD champion's nightmare. Nautilus uses it very well too, but I prefer rangers because I rush rangers + mobi boots and the jungle beats me up too much before I can upgrade to cinderhulk if I go skirmisher.

It's pretty much the best smite for anyone sticking to a target, the problem is with a lot of these tank junglers you need to offset your lack of power early with a more sustain oriented enchant. (think amumu, he really needs sustain because he gets seriously beat up before finishing cinderhulk, and rangers helps with mana problems.) IF you could switch for free like 5.3 or what that patch was every tank would go skirmisher.

TD2601 votes

{quoted}

Build it on tanks and slap people to death.

No, really.

I was keeping a list of the people I've 1v1d as Nautilus since I noticed the power of red smite, and now I've lost track Zed Fizz Vi Leblanc LeeSin and more or less all the adcs.

Tru dat. The true damage DOT either helps me murder other tanks as Nautilus or the damage reduction makes it so that assassins can't just nuke me early on.

junglerboy161 votes

Skirmishers is actually disgusting on any tank right now, it jacks up their damage and makes them super survivable against a single carry, and that often allows them to 1v1 with ease. I'm surprised it actually isn't seeing nerfs this next patch.

KSHarrison1 votes

{quoted}

item 3715 : I generally feel like the item is more "underused" instead of really "underpowered". If you don't need the extra gap-closing/sticking power from Stalker's or the sustain from Ranger's, but would rather like some more survivability against a specific target, you buy Skirmisher's.

I recently saw it quite a bit in competitive games, actually. For example, this weekend's UoL games and WFX vs T8.

Diamondprox has been using it for a while. Technically it should be better if you have no problem sticking to the target.

VDc0zCqe0w1 votes

{quoted}

My personal take is that 5.5 seems to have been very positive for the game, at least so far. Haven't had a chance to make it through all the recent competitive games yet, heartening to see some champs played that haven't been seen there in quite a while though. Hope at least some of that increase in diversity's maintained.

I wouldn't say 5.5 was 'mission accomplished' though, just a piece of the puzzle. One of the next things we're looking at is some further work on the jungle items (Skirmisher's and Poacher's aren't used much at the moment and there good reasons for that - they're generally pretty overshadowed).

botlane is a mess, just saying, there are only tank supports except Janna, Nami and Lulu (even Annie and Morgana are played full tank)

relic is incredibly overpowered, it gives sustain to guys who shouldn't have sustain at all, it is basically impossible for a Sona or a Zyra to poke them nowadays (expecially after damage nerfs)

other lanes are quite cool i think

Arkna2 votes

{quoted}

My personal take is that 5.5 seems to have been very positive for the game, at least so far. Haven't had a chance to make it through all the recent competitive games yet, heartening to see some champs played that haven't been seen there in quite a while though. Hope at least some of that increase in diversity's maintained.

I wouldn't say 5.5 was 'mission accomplished' though, just a piece of the puzzle. One of the next things we're looking at is some further work on the jungle items (Skirmisher's and Poacher's aren't used much at the moment and there good reasons for that - they're generally pretty overshadowed).

With regards to poacher's smite, are we going to be seeing improvements to counterjungling as a whole, or just adjustments to scavenging smite? As it stands, scavenging smite is a strategic dead end. Chilling smite has near universal utility, even while primarily being focused towards ganks, blasting smite doesn't so much add strategic options as much as lower logistical limitations (extremely underrated imo), and challenging smite is a essentially a straight buff to your dueling potential, which regardless of whether or not it's balanced, is less limiting than the scavenging smite, which serves solely to increase a champions ability to perform one strategic action, and it's easily the worst strategic choice a jungler can make.

Frankley Karles1 votes

From what I've come to understand, the new jungle items were designed to supplement four specific jungling aspects:

item 3706 :Ganking

item 3713 :Clear speed

item 3715 :Dueling in the jungle

item 3711 :Counterjunglers

Though I feel that Skirmisher's has its upsides/uses, the change of its on-hit damage to a DoT makes the damage reduction/vision its main selling point, making it more of a supporting item than an aggressive, dueling-centric one. Not saying I want the old on-hit damage back (we've seen what comes of that...shudder...), but the thematic and gameplay aspects of the items seem skewed. Perhaps changing the damage against champions to magic/physical damage on-hit to make it worthwhile but counterable with defenses.

My real issue, though, is Poacher's. Of the four new smites, I've always felt that this one felt a bit...too specialized. Not only are the item's uses polarizing, but it is also the only smite buff that doesn't have any secondary uses (Stalker's gives MS when fleeing, Skirmishers doubles as an exhaust, even Trailblazer can delay pushes with its AoE/Stun). On that note, you'll rarely prioritize its primary use unless you're living in the enemy jungle mid-lategame, in which case you wouldn't even need a means of escape anyways.

Instead, why not make it more focused on vision, perhaps spawning a wolf spirit-like sentry that patrols the area. This would make the item equal to the others in terms of versatility, letting it cover a more universal aspect of the jungle than aggressive invasion.

junglerboy161 votes

Skirmishers actually fulfills its purpose excellently, in that it allows a low damage tank to gain a lot of extra survivability and damage when invaded, or be able to challenge the enemy jungler on their own side of the map without fear of being eviscerated.

vC48YNoGbJ1 votes

{quoted}

My personal take is that 5.5 seems to have been very positive for the game, at least so far.

I wouldn't say 5.5 was 'mission accomplished' though, just a piece of the puzzle.

How does your team feel about Azir as he is now?

Troy2426211 votes

The counterjungling item is fine and all, if counterjungling weren't pitifully weak. The C9 game exemplified it. Meteos stole both buffs and 3 camps from Sejuani and still had extremely comparable gold/exp.

Not to mention he's a pro jungler using fantastic communication. That is what happens when it is perfectly executed. Not only does it require this massive communication but it has high risk.

The yield? Minuscule. Barely alleviated her pressure, didn't really set her back. It's plain not worth it,...

FirstSergeantBim1 votes

Not necessarily. It's easy for a jungler to sneak XP and Gold from other lanes to compensate for lost jungle camps and if they spread the XP and Gold out like that the enemy team will inevitably become weaker over time. I think counter-jungling is in a really good spot right now because the XP and Gold aren't the only rewards for successfully pulling it off. You get any of their potential Smite buffs, you get vision of their jungle and you get a much better transition into a gank than coming from your own jungle. If you're clever enough to make use of it, it's definitely worth the risk.

Sanzash1 votes

I still hope you can do something for Evelynn... Now I think she is even better in Lane than in the jungle...

Meep Man4 votes

I wouldn't say 5.5 was 'mission accomplished' though, just a piece of the puzzle. One of the next things we're looking at is some further work on the jungle items (Skirmisher's and Poacher's aren't used much at the moment and there good reasons for that - they're generally pretty overshadowed).

item 3715 This is a Dueling Jungle item correct? Meaning the main purpose for it is to either use it on a mobile ganker or CC heavy counter jungler. So this is my take on changing it.

UNIQUE PASSIVE- Duelist's Smite: Modifies Smite into Duelist's Smite. Smite can now be used on a champion, minion, or monster to increase damage you deal to the target by 10% and reducing damage the target deals to you by 20% as well as granting 30 tenacity against crowd control effects from the target. This effect lasts for 8 seconds. During this time, if the target moves more than 700 units away from the caster, they are slowed by 10% (+1% per level) and are revealed.

This change would set up a "Duelist Arena" with the target that also gives the user an innate advantage. It can also be useful for ganking if the enemy is incredibly pushed.

item 3711 This item is much more for strong objective control and PvE counterjunglers correct? Get in, get out, steal their stuff. Its current problem is a.) Its current effect is weak and b.) Its current effect is very binary. Its a binary, weak effect. However, buffing it could cause a huge Gold crisis.

UNIQUE PASSIVE- Scavenger's Smite: Modifies Smite into Scavenger's Smite. Smite's range is increased to 5250. If Scavenging Smite is used on a monster in the enemy jungle, enemy champions around the monster are rooted for 1.25 seconds, the danage it deals is increased in true damage by 20% of the target's missing health or current health, whichever deals more damage, and the caster gains 11 (+1 per level) extra gold if Scavenging Smite kills the monster or the caster kills the monster after using Scavenging Smite. This effect always occurs against epic monsters.

This new Scavenging Smite is incredibly more versatile and has a much more powerful effect without killing the Gold Economy. It gives the user much more powerful counterjungling tools AND a directly more powerful Smite against enemy jungle monsters and epic monsters. To summarize the new stuff quickly, much more Smite range at all times. If used on a monster in the enemy jungle, more damage, more gold, and all enemy champions around the target monster are briefly rooted.

junglerboy161 votes

Skirmisher's is also supposed to be used as a defensive dueling item that basically says "hey, you thought you could fight me, but you better back off of my turf right now buddy"Not being used entirely offensively is not a bad thing.

alcatrazEscapee2 votes

Hold on... 5250 range? Thats as long as a lv3 Xerath ultimate You mean you could steal baron from... base?

Is that a typo or intentional?

Marinaras Trench1 votes

lmao imagine, I'm sure it was a typo though :) Oh your yelling at me from across the map, lemme smite that cannon minion

Only Play Darius3 votes

5.4 was a trainwreck, 5.5 was the diversity patch everyone was waiting for.

Tank junglers are now just as viable as any pick (you would not believe the fun I have been having with cinderhulk Skarner Trundle ) and we are seeing incredible variety in LCS picks these days.

Experimenting with buffs instead of nerfs is working out quite well. More patches like 5.5 please.

Edge of Daybreak1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iZVXNjno,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-03-23T07:19:18.688+0000) we are seeing incredible variety in LCS picks these days.

Was that last one even on 5.5? I thought they played one patch behind us.

Sir Flash GG1 votes

{quoted}

Was that last one even on 5.5? I thought they played one patch behind us.

it was

Cuix2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iZVXNjno,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-03-23T07:19:18.688+0000) Experimenting with buffs instead of nerfs is working out quite well.

That's not an experiment; champs have been getting buffed since Season 1. The reasons nerfs are more common have been outlined a few dozen times.

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