Why Lulu's passive is siphoning out her power from the rest of her kit

Z Statistic··1 votes·370 views

Her passive is either the number one or number two reason she has shitty base stats and bad damage on her Q and E (other potential rival is that her kit encourages high-counterplay playstyle despite being non-ideal in terms of outcome). Wanna know why?

Her passive is the second hardest hitting thing in the game at lvl 17. It hits harder than Nunu's fully changed ultimate until 200 AP. She deals more damage than hitting all 3 of Xerath's ults. She deals more single target damage than a full channeled Kat until 700 AP. The only thing that can out damage her passive is Fiddlestick's ultimate.

And all of those ultimates have some form of charge, miss, or ability to be walked out of. Pix does not have nearly as much leeway. You are going to get hit late game if Lulu is in range.

Is it hard to reach 2.0 AS? No, that's why we have Jinx, Jax, Irelia, Kalista and a bunch of other people with tons of AS scaling. Is it hard to keep uptime on a target for 6 seconds? It was in the beginning when fights were decided in 3 seconds. Now? Proper training in attack move can easily allow the user to get 12 attacks off in 6 seconds. I say this is an extreme because it kind of is. You're not going to get that damage in Bronze because people don't have the mechanics, but in Diamond? The ability to give all that damage to Kalista? She doesn't even care who she hits as an ADC; she just wants to hit the highest priority target that in her safest range. She doesn't care and as the meta has changed into burning down tanks instead of straight diving, this is absolutely perfect.

And when she's in solo lane, she just E's someone, squishy or tank, and does the same thing.

The really funny thing is that her innate is pretty much useless at lvl 1. See, there's a bug in it that all flat block is subtracted from her autoattack and then also from her passive. So a Leona with +4 block effectively has +8 block, and the ADC effectively has +6 block. Combined with her low AD, this makes her harass nonexistent until lvl 3. And then you get to lvl 17 where her passive just melts people when used properly.

Would you build MR vs Kat? Of course you would. With 200 MR would you just stand in her ult with impunity? Of course you wouldn't because that thing hits like a truck. So now why would Riot let the exact same thing happen except now it's targeted and you can't simply walk out of it? By itself Pix has counterplay. The bolts are blocked by units and she has low MS. Except E makes it virtually impossible to miss, W/Q makes it virtually impossible to escape, and she can simply reposition Pix on her ally to get around any obstruction.

Lulu is over 3 years old and has proven time and again that when she's good she's good. When she was good at supporting in early Season 3? She kicked out Taric as the best burst support and had the most favorable matchups until she was nerfed, and even then held her own until Nami was released and then followed by Thresh who had more appreciable utility and allin. When she was really good mid? She was oppressive. When she was really good top? She could shove and play safe because the jungler didn't want to go to the Lonely Island. Much of that is blamed on Q and E. Q has waveclear, is relatively fast, and hits fairly hard. E is instant and has decent range while also giving vision and allowing easier Qs. But many fail to realize that a huge portion of her damage still comes from her passive at lvl 7+. Everything in her kit allows her to ignore the downtime counterplay built into her innate.

Time for an example. Let's say Lulu is level 7 with a total of 120 AP. Now, reword the E to say the following because this is essentially what using E on an enemy does: >When used on an enemy, Lulu loses her passive and instead gains attack damage equal to the damage her passive would deal for 4 seconds.

Ok, so at lvl 7 she gains 63 AD for 4 seconds. Not even Janna's E is that powerful. And that's with minions around. She doesn't need to do the above if there's no obstruction. This is why Lulu can't have nice things. This is why Lulu has her Q and E damage nerfed so often, and now that there are plenty of viable targets to abuse the damage on and plenty of viable allies to reach that ever so amazing 1260+1.8AP magic damage, it's going to be the reason why her QWE are going to be shot again.

12 Comments

WarlockLaw3 votes

So lulu does 105 + 15% AP with her passive while nunu deals 547 + 218% AP with a fully charged level 1 ult. How is lulu doing more damage again?

Z Statistic1 votes

She deals up to 1260+1.8AP for the duration of E. Or more precisely, she gives up to 1260+1.8AP to Kalista for the duration of her shield on Kalista. Damage you can't walk out of like in Nunu's case.

WarlockLaw2 votes

Except you are comparing a single instance of damage to a series of pokes over a period of time that does not always occur due to various factors. Don't compare the total damage that can be dealt with her passive on a high attack speed build while she has high ap to an ability that hits once after a long charge up time. The comparison is extremely not fair. I may as well sat it doesn't even come close to the damage potential on thresh' autos, veigar's anything, nasus' q, any % max health vs sion.

Z Statistic1 votes

There are two things I'm trying to point out:

  1. in seasons past, you would be right. A 6 second duration would be non-existent without the fight being decided already. Except now that we have a tank meta and several champion picks are specifically for kiting, the uptime on Lulu's passive is now much much higher. Fights take longer and are decided more by dps than burst.
  2. You can't walk out of Lulu's passive. You can flash out of Nunu's ult. Heck, you can walk out of it. But as long as Kalista can attack you, you will be hit by her passive. In lane it matters who the passive hits. Late game for the adc? It doesn't matter at all really because the ADC is going to be hitting the safest, highest priority target they can as much as they can.

These two caveats are what make Lulu's passive strong, invisibly strong actually, and Riot knows it which is one of the main reason why her damage on Q and E are much lower despite only having 2 damage spells. She's not allowed to have high damage on them because she is safe in lane and has quickly growing dps potential from her passive as the game progresses naturally.

WarlockLaw1 votes
  • Again I'm not saying her passive is or is not strong. You are comparing apples and oranges. Why not compare it to bio arcane barrage which is an on hit that also gives attack speed and is therefore dictated by number of attacks just like lulu's passive. Your comparison makes as much sense as comparing garen's ult to Evelyn's when there is no instance where they would be used for the same purpose
Z Statistic1 votes

Because Bioarcano barrage is already on a carry and Kog is balanced around reliably having that bit. Lulu's passive on Lulu is not nearly as powerful as Lulu's passive on someone else.

Here, maybe this will clarify my stance:

Lulu's passive can deal up to 1260+1.8AP magic damage over 6 seconds. Due to the nature of common picks and the tanky meta, it is extremely likely that her target can achieve 100% uptime with her passive. Additionally, since it is aa based, you can't simply walk out of it again for the aforementioned reasoned. Carries like Ashe, Kalista, and Jinx all have the tools to not only kite but proc Pix 12 times in 6 seconds. Even if the carries fall behind, aa based bruisers who like AS benefit immensely from both the shield and the damage because while the damage itself doesn't change the proportional damage per attack is much higher on say Trundle than on Jinx late game. This additional damage is very invisible for a couple of reasons. The main one is that no one notices an extra 105 magic damage when the carry can crit for 1k. The second reason is the delay. This delay divorces the bolts from the attack, and makes the attack seem or feel weaker even though it's ridiculously powerful. Finally, people discount the damage because the carry has LW and Pix is magic damage. Despite that difference, it's still very powerful. The combination of immense damage and lack of counterplay against it unlike other high-damage spells or abilities forces Lulu's kit to suffer in both damage and utility. Much of her damage is locked up in her passive mid and late game. If Riot were to change Pix so that only Lulu's attacks proc his bolts, while the passive would not be nearly as egregious, the edge case still exists and thus Riot must account for that with her damage. So long as her innate exists in its current form, Lulu's kit will continue to suffer. While changing it won't fix all of her problems (the other is the alternative in the OP), changing her innate to something more window oriented would be more healthy and actually more inline with Lulu's core playstyle of guerrilla warfare instead of raw burst.

WarlockLaw1 votes

Thx for the reword, the proposed change I would do was make it so pix returns to her control after the shield breaks so that it doesn't have the same output so long as you can hit the carry. Her shield isn't that big even with a lot of ap it still sits around 500 at most if I remember correctly so it can be broken by another damage dealer

Z Statistic1 votes

It's as big as Janna's.

WarlockLaw1 votes

Fair but janna's shield gives 80 ad as well as the shield

ZephyrDrake1 votes

this entire thread is made of stupid

Athenes Lulu1 votes

Assuming that support champs are allowed to have decent damage scalings in the first place.

But again, her damage > most supports' damage, wonder why she's BEEN a toplaner and not support?

Marthian1 votes

Her passive has nothing to do with her strong utility: a good shield on ally+AA enhancer, a click Polymorph ability, and tank ult.

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