We should have to choose CC or Damage

Mira Arya Enthe·Aug 19, 2016·66 votes·3,695 views

I noticed an unhealthy trend in LoL. In the past, choosing a champion, let's take Ashe. Was saying "I will give up DPS for CC and utility." Because her old Q was her slow, and her old passive gave her a much more archer-like precise and powerful shot. But she had no DPS boost. Now you choose Ashe and you aren't sacrificing anything, you are getting CC, utility and damage. Which is toxic for design. But it also threatens the champion's core values. Because it means they might nerf what a champion's identity is, slow and ult stun, or even rework them.

I feel Ashe is just a good example. But it is largely why a lot of fighters are feeling like garbage right now. Because you can pick a high CC team that STILL does damage and STILL has sustain. Without any sacrifices. So the fighter tries to run in, gets CC'd but also takes a lot of damage.

We should go back to chooses being give and take a lot more. If I choose Ashe i shouldn't have the hypercarry potential of Tristana, the bully power of Caitlyn. I should be a precise, CC wielding utility ADC. On the flip side, if I choose a high damage ADC, I shouldn't also get tons of CC and utility with it.

Am I making sense?

115 Comments

RalanrAug 19, 201633 votes

There's more to consider than just damage and CC. You also have mobility and durability.

Mira Arya EntheAug 19, 20169 votes

{quoted}

There's more to consider than just damage and CC. You also have mobility and durability.

I was addressing one example.

EvewynnAug 20, 201624 votes

You can't isolate this example because there are more variables. A champ can healthily have both damage and CC, but be squishy and immobile.

Just look at any immobile Mage and you will see it as a common thing.

Mira Arya EntheAug 20, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Celestial Bodied,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iYEROU1Z,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2016-08-20T03:01:10.143+0000)

You can't isolate this example because there are more variables. A champ can healthily have both damage and CC, but be squishy and immobile.

Just look at any immobile Mage and you will see it as a common thing.

Mages also have a lot less DPS and objective killing power. Nor do those same mages have a perma slow. And team fight power. And CC. And burst. And cross map vision. And insane poke. All on the same kit. there is a reason Ashe has the highest win rate.

LankPantsAug 20, 201612 votes

And Ashe's burst and CC are both garbage when you compare her to Anivia, an example of a control mage. Her DPS isn't even that much higher. There are too many variable to try to do a direct 1-1 comparison here.

Mira Arya EntheAug 20, 20165 votes

{quoted}

And Ashe's burst and CC are both garbage when you compare her to Anivia, an example of a control mage. Her DPS isn't even that much higher. There are too many variable to try to do a direct 1-1 comparison here.

Anivia is a mage, not an ADC. We compare her to other ADCs. Not mages.

LankPantsAug 20, 201619 votes

You literally said

Mages also have a lot less DPS and objective killing power. Nor do those same mages have a perma slow. And team fight power. And CC. And burst. And cross map vision. And insane poke. All on the same kit.

You are comparing a mage to an ADC in this statement. I even said

There are too many variable to try to do a direct 1-1 comparison here.

But you just ignored that and read what you wanted didn't you?

If you want to compare Ashe to other ADCs that's fine.

Ashe has low end burst for an ADC, she can't compete with people like Lucian or Twitch.
Her poke is average for an ADC, it's certainly not on par with people like Corki or Caitlyn.
Her DPS is above average, it's better than the likes of Corki and Lucian, sure but it's nowhere near on par with someone like Vayne, Draven or Kog.
Her mobility is the worst possible in the game. She's in the lowest tier of base MS and has no hastes, dashes or blinks at all.

The only thing Ashe has that's top tier amongst ADCs is her utility.

You're confusing a champion who's somewhat overtuned with poor design.

Mira Arya EntheAug 20, 20162 votes

{quoted}

You literally said

You are comparing a mage to an ADC in this statement. I even said

But you just ignored that and read what you wanted didn't you?

If you want to compare Ashe to other ADCs that's fine.

Ashe has low end burst for an ADC, she can't compete with people like Lucian or Twitch.

Her poke is average for an ADC, it's certainly not on par with people like Corki or Caitlyn.

Her DPS is above average, it's better than the likes of Corki and Lucian, sure but it's nowhere near on par with someone like Vayne, Draven or Kog.

Her mobility is the worst possible in the game. She's in the lowest tier of base MS and has no hastes, dashes or blinks at all.

The only thing Ashe has that's top tier amongst ADCs is her utility.

You're confusing a champion who's somewhat overtuned with poor design.

"And Kog only pulled ahead this patch. And his playrate is very low, saying it's only dedicated players and specific comps he is doing well in. Ashe is played in nearly 1/4th of all games at 24% pick rate. And still has that win rate. She is just faceroll OP at the moment. I should know, I play her.

LankPantsAug 20, 201612 votes

No other ADC provides reliable vision for their team, permanent slows for their team, a team fight engage or disengage comparable to many tanks that is global and has the longest single hard CC in the game on it, excellent harass and still a 600 range with easy laning phase.

No other ADC can tank for their team, swap a target out of the enemy team, lock onto enemy champs to reliably poke them from 1000 units distance away. All this while permanently slowing enemies and even shredding their armour. And no other ADC in the game has a suppression, the strongest form of CC in the game.

Listing out kit strengths is a garbage argument, I can (and did) make any champion sound strong by doing so.

Mira Arya EntheAug 20, 20162 votes

{quoted}

No other ADC can tank for their team, swap a target out of the enemy team, lock onto enemy champs to reliably poke them from 1000 units distance away. All this while permanently slowing enemies and even shredding their armour. And no other ADC in the game has a suppression, the strongest form of CC in the game.

Listing out kit strengths is a garbage argument, I can (and did) make any champion sound strong by doing so.

Except Urgot isn't played in 24%+ of games and still has the highest average win rate over the course of more than a month soooo...

AceBlackAug 20, 201612 votes

You started the argument by comparing the strengths of an ADC to the strengths of a mage, then you immediately said that comparing and ADC and a mage is bad and started listing the strengths of a champion. Then you went to comparing winrate and playrate...

Just stop. Stop shifting the goalposts and argue properly. It's painful to watch.

Imperial JapanAug 20, 20164 votes

Also what's up with his profile pic 😂 Complaining about Ashe with that pic

Ashe JungleAug 21, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=DLTD Stuart,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iYEROU1Z,comment-id=000500000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-08-20T12:06:12.725+0000)

Also what's up with his profile pic 😂 Complaining about Ashe with that pic

This, just.. no.

Just because I main Ashe doesn't mean I can't complain about her being OP. I'd love to see another small Ashe nerf, because it would mean that maybe I can actually get to play her once in a while.

I would like to clarify that I don't agree with OP that Ashe has a bad design. I do think Ashe is overtuned right now.

Imperial JapanAug 21, 20161 votes

I was just kidding, Ashe is a bit overtuned right now but I don't really agree with Mr.OP's reasoning either. Also i'd like Ashe to be overtuned than UP if either or

TheProAndrewAug 31, 20161 votes

Veigar ? he just came to my mind

Remlap1223Aug 20, 201613 votes

No. You have to also take into consideration mobility, sustain, and defense.

Since you bring up Ashe, she has high damage and utility, but no mobility or defense.

Miss Fortune has extremely high damage, ok utility and mobility, but low defense and sustain.

Lucian has high mobility and damage, but extremely low defense and no utility.

And then you have abominations like Kalista that have everything with no tradeoffs that make you want to drink shotgun mouthwash instead of playing.

Mira Arya EntheAug 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

No. You have to also take into consideration mobility, sustain, and defense.

Since you bring up Ashe, she has high damage and utility, but no mobility or defense.

Miss Fortune has extremely high damage, ok utility and mobility, but low defense and sustain.

Lucian has high mobility and damage, but extremely low defense and no utility.

And then you have abominations like Kalista that have everything with no tradeoffs that make you want to drink shotgun mouthwash instead of playing.

No other ADC provides reliable vision for their team, permanent slows for their team, a team fight engage or disengage comparable to many tanks that is global and has the longest single hard CC in the game on it, excellent harass and still a 600 range with easy laning phase. The only thing Ashe lacks is mobility. But if a player is not a moron they stay safe when ult/flash/heal is down and use their permaslow to escape. She doesn't also need to do objective and team fight DPS comparable to the best damage hypercarries, who in the case of MF, Kog and others are also immobile. And have even LESS escape as she has her ult. http://champion.gg/ She has been the top ADC for over a month, and only was surpassed by Kog. With Kog's very low play rate it is likely these are dedicated Kog players and special comps. Ashe however is picked 24% of the time and still wins by a landslide over the general ADC population.

Remlap1223Aug 20, 201612 votes

I can make any champion in the game sound like the most OP shit ever just by listing out their stats. I mean Jesus, did you know that Karthus can continue casting spells after he dies? The fucker even gets a damaging AOE field, because getting free spell casts under tower wasn't discouraging tower dives enough.

What about Urgot? He reduces your damage output by 15% by just damaging you! Did I mention his abilities are long ranged, and can slow you and be targeted? Good luck trying to outtrade him with his mana scaling shield and a kit that rewards spamming!

Don't even get me started on Xin Zhao's passive. I mean free armor shred on a diver? Why don't we just give him 100% max health true damage next?

Ashe is overtuned right now, yes, but she's still made of paper mache and the reason she is so strong is Fervor being OP more than anything. And despite that, she's still one of the most fair champions in the game unless you're as immobile as she is.

LankPantsAug 20, 20162 votes

Miss Fortune has extremely high damage, ok utility and mobility, but low defense and sustain.

MF actually has the highest base HP of any ADC in the game sans Urgod. Her defences aren't as bad as you'd think.

Mira Arya EntheAug 20, 20162 votes

{quoted}

MF actually has the highest base HP of any ADC in the game sans Urgod. Her defences aren't as bad as you'd think.

High base HP only does so much. In a live game constant trades and poke keep everyone's HP low. She also has no CC other than a mild slow. And low range. Meaning she has to be very close to fight enemies compared to Ashe, Caitlyn, Kog, late Trist and Jinx.

LankPantsAug 20, 20164 votes

High base HP only does so much.

I'd agree with that. It's still the best thing any ADC except Graves or Kindred really has in terms of durability though, so I'd say she's in the range of moderate durability amongst ADCs.

Remlap1223Aug 20, 20162 votes

That's to make up for the fact that her damage falls off late game and she has no reliable way to defend herself. Besides, that little stat bonus is irrelevant because any champion that builds at least one damage item will still melt her like butter if they catch her out of position. She's my main ADC, and I build her with Black Cleaver, Deaths Dance, and Phantom Dancer and she still will get obliterated in a 1v1 matchup late game unless Duskblade's passive is up.

PartholonianAug 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

And then you have abominations like Kalista that have everything with no tradeoffs that make you want to drink shotgun mouthwash instead of playing.

You were doing well until you ignored your own points at the end there. Kalista has no defense, low utility and mediocre damage (low if compared only to other marksmen) along with her notoriously extreme mobility. Those are actual weaknesses and they make her terrible in high elo atm.

Remlap1223Aug 21, 20161 votes

Absolutely not. Kalista has utility almost as good as Jinx, topped off with insane DPS and objective control. If she's so bad, why is she still seeing play in the LCS? Right now her only weakness is that she's tied to her support at the hip, and that's not much of a weakness considering she gets an insane damage nuke and a get out of jail free card for her support and the longest knockup in the game just for clicking R.

THE RlVER KlNGAug 19, 201611 votes

Ekko and Jhin laugh from distance

Mira Arya EntheAug 19, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iYEROU1Z,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-08-19T22:27:20.250+0000)

Ekko and Jhin laugh from distance

O.o

IEvenTiltTimeAug 19, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iYEROU1Z,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-08-19T22:27:20.250+0000)

Ekko and Jhin laugh from distance

Ehh, Ekko used to have pretty weak scalings before people started building him tank and Riot shifted that.

THE RlVER KlNGAug 19, 201610 votes

AP Ekko still hits like a truck with all the slows and stuns as a tank

Keira HelshAug 19, 201610 votes

Yes, and it's a trend I've been following in League for quite some time. Originally, RADC's had 1 damage steriod, and we had melee ADC's that had two. Exceptions always existed, for example, Yi had three, Kog'maw had two. But that was the general design.

But as Champions came out, we started to have more and more, Vayne has two, Varus has two, Ashe now has two, Draven has two.

RequiemsfireAug 20, 20169 votes

I'm sorry but I can't help but feel you're wrong here. Ashe might have utility in slows and a stun on her ult but that doesn't enable safety against assassins like Zed or Rengar . And her damage steroid is gated by the fact you have to land a total of 4 auto atttacks in order to use Ranger's focus.

Meanwhilewhile Tristana can use her rocket jump or buster shot to knock assassins away before they can deal damage. Here's the kicker the rocket jump also resets every time you get a kill, assist or you detonate a fully primed bomb.

Sivir has a spell shield, her ricochet and a utility ultimate which grants MS and AS to her entire team.

Jinx has a snare, a global ultimate that deals a significant amount of burst with a wider hitbox. An attack speed and MS steroid on a kill or assist

Caitlyn has snare traps, her net, and a long range poke ability which is all facilitated against by her traps. Hre net also propels herself away from the target and slows the target.

Varus some of the best poke an ADC could want with a team snare ultimate and a slow that inflicts grievous wounds in a circle.

Twitch has an absolute dumpster of an early game because he's late game is crazy strong in that he has invisibility and an insane steroid which boost the range of his auto attacks while outputting what is probably the highest dps in the game.

Kalista has mobility on every single auto attack she makes, making her really hard to target with free attack speed and damage for simply standing next to the oaths worth and let's not even go into detail about her rend.

Lucian has a dash, a passive which lets you shoot two AA's between skills and a lot of burst. His dash lowers the cooldown each time Lucian uses this passive.

TL;DR All ADCs have damage and utility.

An Undead bratAug 20, 20161 votes

I like your point except for Kalista - she must stand next to the Oathsworn in order to have EQUAL attack speed, she got this huge ball kick (if I can say this about her) because she was way too dominant because of that utility you are talking about, so this spell is more like her downside...

RequiemsfireAug 20, 20161 votes

Having that attack speed and bonus magic damage isn't really a disadvantage. I forgot to mention she can deal 15% of the targets maximum health with that same passive :P

An Undead bratAug 20, 20162 votes

That percentage damage is good and I did not daubt it.

That "free attack speed" you are talking about was all in her stats. Then they took it from her and put it on her Oathsworn so she doesn't have it all the time. That's by the way the reason why we don't ever see her anymore.

SpoofghoulAug 20, 20168 votes

hmm yes and no

having a multitude of these things doesnt always mean imbalanced theri are ways to make it healthy depending on mechanics

Sion Has durability, Damage and cc/utility

Yet he is not broken

Hexs FortuneAug 19, 20166 votes

Ashe is a poor example since she is slated for damage nerfs while also bringing alot of utility.

RequiemsfireAug 20, 20163 votes

Also one thing people neglect when discussing ashe and that's her greatest weakness. While her AS steroid is really strong it can only be used after a total of 4 auto attacks. It might not sound like much but it inhibits her a lot when it comes to fighting early on and in the later game.

Do I think Ashe is a bit overtuned? Yeah, probably, she got a lot of buffs in the pre-season. Do I think her kit is overloaded? I don't.

The truth is when you look at it, Ashe may have become a meta pick because the Kalista and Lucian were nerfed allowing Ashe to have a stronger presence. Perma slows might be difficult to deal with but with the current state of mobility in the game it simply means Ashe will struggle to kite them.

GULAG 4 UAug 19, 20166 votes

You're right, but ashe doesn't have mobility to compensate.

Lucian is mobile and has damage but no utility (poor).

CC/utility, mobility, damage and durability should be taken in consideration.

MoesndAug 20, 20166 votes

Sure ashe has high damage and utility

But she has no mobility And her damage doesnt even come close to that of tristana, twitch, kogmaw and other hypercarries and others like lucian deal more damage early and mid game

Mira Arya EntheAug 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Sure ashe has high damage and utility

But she has no mobility And her damage doesnt even come close to that of tristana, twitch, kogmaw and other hypercarries and others like lucian deal more damage early and mid game

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iYEROU1Z,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2016-08-19T23:54:56.017+0000)

As an Ashe player she has too much. CC, utility, DPS, burst, kiting, long range, easy laning, disengage, team fight engagement, vision. Regardless of masteries.

They should rework her Q to not give her early game burst and hypercarry DPS. Instead make it similar to her old "Focus" passive but revamped into a cool active ability. Maybe similar to Rapid Fire Cannon.

She wasn't meant to have a DPS steroid. Especially not one of the best in LoL. She was a kiting, long range, CC, utility ADC. Who prefered poke and kiting with her ult compensating her lack of raw damage.

Ashe offers a lot. And currently has the highest win rate in the game for marksman, and one of the highest period. She has wavered between 54-56% the last month or so. In general, she was never meant to have a DPS boost, and a multihit effect would thematically be better on somebody like Jinx. In high levels of play, there is NO prefered hypercarry over her. She has an insane ban and pick rate.

LankPantsAug 20, 20162 votes

Ashe offers a lot. And currently has the highest win rate in the game for marksman, and one of the highest period. She has wavered between 54-56% the last month or so.

Your facts are very wrong. Ashe isn't the highest winrate ADC right now, Kog is. She doesn't hover around 54-56%, she's bellow 54% and has been for the last two patches. Source.

Mira Arya EntheAug 20, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Your facts are very wrong. Ashe isn't the highest winrate ADC right now, Kog is. She doesn't hover around 54-56%, she's bellow 54% and has been for the last two patches. Source.

And Kog only pulled ahead this patch. And his playrate is very low, saying it's only dedicated players and specific comps he is doing well in. Ashe is played in nearly 1/4th of all games at 24% pick rate. And still has that win rate. She is just faceroll OP at the moment. I should know, I play her.

LankPantsAug 20, 20163 votes

She carried you to Bronze 1 with a 33% winrate. Must admit, I'm impressed bro.

MoesndAug 20, 20163 votes

While i do agree that ashe is too powerful atm that is being fixed

Once she gets put in line numbers wise she will not be a very high damage adc and will be low on mobility Her role will still be the utility adc

Penta AceAug 20, 20164 votes

I feel like that about people like riven and yas.

CC? Check. Good Damage? Check. Resource-less? Check. Some type of durability? Check. Mobility? Check and Check.

I dont see Riven much anymore and I usually play mages that shit on yas, BUT I can see why people find them annoying. It feels like they don't sacrifice as much as other champions.

So what your're saying about ashe i can agree with.

Tobias BracknerAug 20, 20163 votes

I'm pretty sure Ashe needs to get her stacks going before she can do real dmg.

Also she has 0 escape moves.

notmebuthimAug 20, 20163 votes

It a problem when a champion has mobility, damage, cc, and durability. Ekko Irelia Yasuo

LankPantsAug 20, 20163 votes

What in Irelia's base kit gives her durability? There isn't anything.

She builds into it because it's the main thing that her kit lacks. She has sustain, sure, but it's not strong enough to drain tank so it more acts to heal her up between trades.

I don't personally believe that Irelia is a problem in anywhere near the same magnitude as Ekko, Yasou or even Lee Sin. My reason for this is because you have defined your 4 traits slightly wrong, it's more mobility, damage, utility, and durability. Extreme levels of CC (as in Ekko's case) can be utility but a single stun isn't really enough to be high utility.

Irelia actually does make tradeoffs in durability and utility. I think a lot of people just hate her because she specifically shits on squishy assassin like champs who tend to be very popular and the somewhat popular ranged tops. A lot of popular tops, like Fiora Riven Gnar Yasuo Gangplank all get beat by her and a lot of popular junglers LeeSin Graves Khazix MasterYi Rengar also struggle to deal with her.

These are 5 of the 7 most popular champs in both roles and also 14 of Irelia's best matchups in the game. She actually loses very hard to most tanks, durable fighters and juggernauts. She's very bad at handling bulk.

A better example of a top who fits this definition at base would be Riven, who has durability in her base kit with a spamable shield, mobility, damage and 2 AOE hard CCs. Or Fiora. Or Gnar, who also has ranged harass in addition to all these things.

LankPantsAug 20, 20162 votes

In the past, choosing a champion, let's take Ashe. Was saying "I will give up DPS for CC and utility.

Ashe never really gave up DPS for utility. She's always had one of the highest base AS's in the game which is one of the most important factors to DPS as AS is multiplicative.

Now you choose Ashe and you aren't sacrificing anything, you are getting CC, utility and damage.

You sacrifice mobility, which is one of the most important attributes in the game. Also durability, but that's not really an attribute that any ADC has.

Ashe's kit actually makes an appropriate tradeoff and is a terrible example to use. A better example is Kalista. Regardless of her current state of balance she's a high damage, hyper mobile, high utility champion.

Troll for TrumpAug 20, 20162 votes

Even when you do pure dmg kit or pure cc, they're still toxic.

For an example of a basically full dmg based of kit, look at Illaoi. No one knew about her pre-buffs, but once she got popular, everyone called her OP toxic bs.

For full cc there aren't any I can think of. Naut top did have a lot of CC, but the issue was he brought dmg with the CC. Alistar had an issue with his W proccing Sheen, as it guaranteed an AA. The best examples I can think of are Naut support briefly being meta, and Maokai top.

Sassmast3rAug 20, 20162 votes

I think the primary issue with champions that are newer is simply how many facets there kits contain and how many ways they can be utilized.

For example, I personally despise Jhin's kit, despite the fact that I find his personality to be sassy af. His kit begins with complex functions involving attack speed/critical damage/movement speed that not even I can fully explain to you, he has a Q that works like Sivir's ricochet but rewards him for doing something as basic as killing a minion with it, his W is a long-range snipe that, despite being moderately challenging to land, has CC built into it (which I personally think that having anything beyond a slow on an ADC is problematic in and of itself, but that might just be me), his E synergizes incredibly well with his W and itself has a slow on it, and his ultimate is identical to Cait's, simply more interactive.

I'm not saying that Jhin is even overpowered, I'm saying that he's overloaded. Sure, I can win against a Jhin as Karma, Nami, Lulu, etc, especially if it's ranked and I put forth a concerted effort to win laning and teamfighting phases. The point I'm trying to make is that he has capabilities in his kit that stem beyond other ADCs, and I think this causes issues with more "binary" champions (for lack of a better word) ( KogMaw Twitch Varus for example).

The previous champions have specific focuses in their kit, along with tradeoffs to counteract said focuses. Varus, for example, has spectacular poking capabilities, which continually increase as a game goes on (assuming he can win his lane). His ultimate is his only form of escape, however, so as the Varus player, you must be wise and ensure not to get caught out. His E has grievous wounds, yes, but it require that he actually lands something in order to inflict said status. His Q is the prime focus of his kit, but can be challenging to land and generally is upgraded first to ensure it's full damage is being received. His W encourages even further for him to utilize a combination of poking with AAs and poking with Qs to maximize damage output.

I feel as if the issue lies within the amount of strategy necessary to execute x amount of damage in older champions versus newer ones. Against Jhin I feel as if they put 50% effort with 100% reward, but versus Varus they seem to put 100% effort for their reward. Why would I want to use a champion that's requires twice as much effort for a similar reward, aside from my own pride?