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Can we address damage creep?

Arthimetes··9 votes·534 views

I hate being a full tank Zac and dying in 2 seconds after engaging come lategame Same goes for Taric, full tank and can die before the 2.5 second delay on his ult ends even against a full AD team.

Early game damage is even worse. I mean I can kill someone with a SINGLE combo from full hp to dead, that was in no way possible even back in season 5.

Damage creep is getting out of control, its so bad Tanks, REAL tanks not bruisers, are starting to build damage items because building tank is worthless now, you still die way too fast. Sejuani, Zac, Amumu, Gragas, all these tanky AP junglers are starting to take Runic Echoes over Cinderhulk now just so they can stay relevent later in the game.

I think there just needs to be a global damage reduction to get rid of this damage creep.

EDIT: Ok, the conversation is getting a bit off-the-rails, I'm trying to say there's too much damage in the game right now, there needs to be a GLOBAL damage reduction in the game to put things back the way they should be.

Tanks need to be tanky again, even going 100% tank lets you die in about 3 seconds, base damages need nerfed, but scalings need left alone.

16 Comments

Sightless662 votes

Sejuani, Zac, Amumu, Gragas, all these tanky AP junglers are starting to take Runic Echoes over Cinderhulk now just so they can stay relevent later in the game.

That's not why they take it. They take it for early game power, because the extra damage is more likely to convert a gank than tankiness is. Early on, ganks are often a matter of killing the enemy before they escape, and being tankier doesn't help with that. The standard practice for these junglers is actually to sell runic echoes for cinderhulk when they hit max items, because the cinderhulk is indisputably more powerful at that stage of the game.

tanks, REAL tanks not bruisers, are starting to build damage items because building tank is worthless now, you still die way too fast.

Not really. We have plenty of top lane tanks going for pure tank builds. Hell, building tank is so good this season that we've had plenty of non-tanks building sunfire iceborn into pure tank in lieu of building damage. Tank items got much stronger with the beginning of season 6.

Early game damage is even worse. I mean I can kill someone with a SINGLE combo from full hp to dead, that was in no way possible even back in season 5.

I'm just going to have to call you wrong on this. There has been no change in this.

Arthimetes2 votes

The tank assassin thing is due to an abundance of free damage in assassin kits, the biggest offenders Fizz Ekko having free %hp damage on every auto, not due to powerful tank items. Plus those 2 champions also have "uh oh" buttons incase anything goes wrong so they can get back out of fights, add that to their mobility and there was no reason to build them pure damage because building pure tank did the same damage plus you lasted longer in fights.

Also, how has there been no change in early-game damage? Even back in season 5 early game you had to poke down your opponent or constantly attack them to get their hp low enough to finish them off. Now it's literally 1 rotation and people are just dead. Not to mention how bs keystones are.

Sightless661 votes

The tank assassin thing is due to an abundance of free damage in assassin kits,

This was true in the past too, and yet tank builds were not the most common builds. There was a change that sparked the tank builds. Buffs to the tank items in the preseason is the reason why it became so prevalent this season. Tank items got significantly better due to stat increases and cost decreases. That is also why we saw a shift away from carry top laners and towards tank top laners.

Even back in season 5 early game you had to poke down your opponent or constantly attack them to get their hp low enough to finish them off. Now it's literally 1 rotation and people are just dead.

I don't agree with anything you said here. I don't agree that you are killing people in one rotation all the time now, and I don't agree that there has been a change in this pattern since season 5. I don't think your interpretation of the game is accurate in any way.

It might help if you told me what you think actually caused the change. Right now, all I have is you saying something that I think is blatantly untrue, and I don't know why you're saying it. That doesn't give me much room to respond to you. All I can really say is "I think you're wrong".

Arthimetes1 votes

The damage creep mostly resulted from buffs to base damages, buffs to masteries, and all the reworks happening lately that are just adding more and more damage to the game almost every patch now. And just to say it I think items are fine, leave those alone

And the killing in a single rotation now is 100% possible and I do it consistantly at about lv 3, and heres the proof https://media.giphy.com/media/EZqx1SkwZBBnO/giphy.gif

I main brand, always have, and I know for a fact doing that back in seasons 4 and 5 was impossible at lv 3 with just a dorans ring.

MunchCrunchLunch2 votes

it isn't just damage creep. in which you can amplify your damage with masteries and stuff. a lot. but also. most tank items got nerfed. and tank stats in general. have diminishing returns. however. adc items. have multiplicative returns. because of infinity edge. the damage they get. is more than additive. also because of crit as well.

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

I've not really been having any issues on tank junglers (and I play Sejuani, Gragas, Zac and Amumu).

I build Cinderhulk and I can still survive fights while killing my opponents; that hasn't really changed.

I have to be a little more careful about picking my fights and choosing when to engage, but I haven't really been have any issues aside from that.

Arthimetes1 votes

Highest win% build on Zac, Sejuani, Amumu,and Gragas is Runic Echoes

On Amumu's highest win% build he also builds item 3116, item 3001, item 3151. Thats a very damage-oriented build for how he used to be played.

On Gragas, his highest playrate and highest winrate builds are both Runic Echoes

On Sejuani's highest win% build it's FULL AP --item 1402 item 3152 item 3089 item 3151 item 3116-- item 3158 and Sejuani is possibly the best-case to build Cinderhulk on

On Zac's highest winrate build he also goes for item 3151 and item 3116

So yes it's better to start building damage on these full tanks, the "full tank" builds for these guys usually have a 3-5% lower winrate than these builds with damage items in them.

Anags2 votes

Tanks don't actually scale well into late game unless massively ahead. It's been that way for a while. Also all of those champs actually have some decent aoe burst combos when building damage. Damage builds also increase their ability to clear waves and take neutral objectives. Also if you get ahead you will often decide to build damage at which point you are probably going to win anyway.

If you are playing those champs into a squishy team I would build AP all day because if you land a combo then they are dead. If the other team has a tanky comp or high sustain comp then going tank would probably be better.

It is all situational. There is no set you must build this every game build and there shouldn't be.

Also the last buff to cinderhulk made it so you finally have a choice between that and runic echoes. Prior to that buff runic was literally better on everyone aside from maybe voli. Those items are fine right now. Tanks are actually fine. God forbid they have some flexibility in build and playstyle...these forums, I swear.

Arthimetes1 votes

Flexibility is fine, I love trying out new things on new people, but when you take a champion that's supposed to be a super tank and find out the optimal build for that champion is a primarily damage build, there IS something wrong.

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

You aren't really taking into condition the factors which determine how a player builds during a game.

The offensive builds have higher win-rates, but the defensive builds are far more common. This is largely a result of how players build according to the situation:

  • When the player is ahead, they will generally build more offensively.
  • When the player is behind, they will generally build more defensively.

While the damage-heavy builds may have a higher win-rate, this may be in part due to the player already being ahead when they decided to opt for a damage-heavy build. If they are already winning and ahead, then there is a good chance that they will maintain their lead and win the game using it.

The defensive builds are far more commonly used and are the standard build for those champions. These are how the players build in the majority of their games and would be for more normal situations.

Arthimetes1 votes

Actually as I said for Gragas, his highest playrate and winrate are both with Runic Echoes and other damage items.

And the gap between the tank and damage builds for these champions is usually only about 200 games with the winrate between the 2 is usually about 3%

It's not like I'm taking a build that only has 50 wins and saying that's the best build, these damage builds have HUNDREDS of uses are are starting to come close to overshadowing the tank builds.

Kiharon3 votes

Some things to keep in mind with "highest win % builds":

  • The winning/losing may cause the build instead of the other way around. (When ahead, snowball. When behind, build tanky)

  • The smaller the number of games played with the build, the more likely it is that the build is either situationaly viable or just being played by a relatively strong player (one-trick/main/smurf)

Arthimetes1 votes

{quoted}

Actually as I said for Gragas, his highest playrate and winrate are both with Runic Echoes and other damage items.

And the gap between the tank and damage builds for these champions is usually only about 200 games with the winrate between the 2 is usually about 3%

It's not like I'm taking a build that only has 50 wins and saying that's the best build, these damage builds have HUNDREDS of uses are are starting to come close to overshadowing the tank builds.

I wish it was just smurfs and troll builds, but these damage builds are becoming the new normal.

DeathBurst1 votes

You don't die in 2.5 s with a Full Tank build. Not as Sion or Garen, at least...

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

You do if you charge into the entire enemy team alone or get caught out.

Arthimetes2 votes

Initiating a fight as a full tank can get you killed in seconds.

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