Nerfing damage and buffing towers...

Arya Riven·Jan 22, 2017·80 votes·3,836 views

Would be an automatic buff to ADCs. As their sustained damage would be required again in order to deal with tanks, towers and objectives.

88 Comments

CountSpatulaJan 22, 20177 votes

B-but then tanks would be actually killable, no one wants that :^)

StephenizgodJan 22, 201732 votes

Tanks aren't even that big of a deal except those like Poppy, Mao, and maybe Zac (who need to be nerfed because they are too tanky and deal a lot of sustained damage). It is Divers like Hecarim that are the problem since they build almost pure tank and can 1 shot the ADC under turret in the middle of all 5 enemies.

Also ADC's complain they can't kill tanks, well now you know how it feels, for 2 seasons tanks were getting 4 shot killed by ADC's and when they complained ADC mains mocked them. Now this "adc in 2017? lul" meme is around and I smile as I watch ADC's get slowly replaced by... anything else.

CountSpatulaJan 22, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Tanks aren't even that big of a deal except those like Poppy, Mao, and maybe Zac (who need to be nerfed because they are too tanky and deal a lot of sustained damage). It is Divers like Hecarim that are the problem since they build almost pure tank and can 1 shot the ADC under turret in the middle of all 5 enemies.

Also ADC's complain they can't kill tanks, well now you know how it feels, for 2 seasons tanks were getting 4 shot killed by ADC's and when they complained ADC mains mocked them. Now this "adc in 2017? lul" meme is around and I smile as I watch ADC's get slowly replaced by... anything else.

Tank items need a large rework, too cheap for what they do

Tychusfindlay919Jan 22, 201714 votes

{quoted}

Tank items need a large rework, too cheap for what they do

Im fine with more expensive if that means ADCs don't get a monopoly on late game itemization.

StephenizgodJan 22, 20176 votes

Like I said, the issue is not Tanks, its the champions abusing their items. It wouldn't be an issue if Hecarim couldn't buy TriForce then straight tank and burst squishies. No one would be complaining about tank items, they would be complaining about Poppy, Mao, and Zac specifically.

It would also be nice to have late game tank items, it kind of feels bad to be erased with only a few auto-attacks from the previously 1/7 ADC. Unless you are the aforementioned problem champions, Tanks don't feel useful late game and rely heavily on their team to do pretty much everything while they die.

RalanrJan 22, 201710 votes

Considering how tanks fall off late, it's not them being too cheap that's the problem.

Defensive itemization will hopefully get some changes in the midseason though.

YumScrumptious96Jan 23, 20171 votes

Have you seen Maokai or Poppy late game? Falls off?

RalanrJan 23, 201712 votes

Wow, the outlier tanks. Gee I guess my assumption on the entire class is wrong because of a few strong champions.

YumScrumptious96Jan 23, 20172 votes

Dude tanks entire point is too soak damage, late game when they are full build with GA they are great at that. The outlier tanks AKA the strongest tanks who are also meta. Not really outliers considering they do exactly what their class is supposed to do.

Fondling GemsJan 23, 20177 votes

No they fall off because tank stats are a 2 times multiplier of Health and Armour/MR. In comparison ADC's have 3 different stats that multiply their damage, AD, Crit, and AS. That means they will outscale tank stats by the very nature of how multiplying stats works.

YumScrumptious96Jan 23, 20171 votes

ADC's outscale tanks, but if they didn't tanks would be so dominant there'd be no point in picking anything else. Assassins and mages both lose to them, fighters is iffy. Tanks don't fall off late though, they are still extremely useful, its not fucking Lee Sin where they are just ult bots.

Fondling GemsJan 23, 20174 votes

Tanks do fall off though because they don't tank as effectively for the reason I stated above. Tanks are strongest early to mid game. Those that are "late game tanks" such as Shen and Sej are in pretty poor states right now because tanks fall off late.

Sure they are still decently effective, especially if they have a job beyond tanking like Malphite who wants to engage, but they do fall off in comparison to other roles because in LoL damage outscales Tanking as the game goes on, so the more items carries get the faster tanks die, and if a tank is dying faster the longer a game goes then that means it is falling off.

Currently tanks are early-mid champions because tanking late game on most champion is almost as much of a joke as an ADC early game.

Only a few champions like Poppy are overtuned to the point where her "Falling off" is still stronger than most champions can actually tank late game.

YumScrumptious96Jan 23, 20171 votes

Tanks are not very strong early. They don't have very strong trading, have higher cooldowns on low damage abilities, and the class they counter the hardest works well against them (mages). Tanking late is not a joke, otherwise teams wouldn't pick hard scaling tanks like Maokai and Poppy. Have you seen any videos of full tank Poppy's being unkillable? That is not falling off. They fail in comparison to the one role that counters them late, adc.

Fondling GemsJan 23, 20171 votes

As I mentioned specifically, there are outside cases for tanks that do not apply to tanks in general. Poppy is one of those specifically.

Maokai is one of those tanks chosen for fulfilling a role beyond tanking, and that is his AOE damage reduction for his team as well as having a strong mid game.

There are plenty of tanks that are strong early too. While not as strong as lane bullies I have seen plenty of Maokai, Poppy, Sion etc. get kills at around 5 minutes.

The majority of tanks winrate falls off as the game goes on with only a few exceptions. 1 being Poppy, because she is just overtuned right now and is a terrible example for looking at the class as a whole. The second being late game tanks because they need the game to go long to have an impact in the first place, but tend to have low winrates as a whole because late game tanks are just bad right now. They only function at 40+ minutes when everyone is full build because they are the types of tanks who are good at keeping their carries alive, and such play protect the carry to let their team win.

Examples: Malphite has a very high winrate early game, but keeps falling off all game because he has no way to protect his carry after engaging.

Maokai: Strong mid game, falls off very hard at 35-40 minutes. Only at 40+ minutes does his winrate go back up because his damage reduction gives his team an advantage in teamfights, it has nothing to do with his ability to tank.

Shen: Late game tank. Trash winrate all game except in the rare case of a 40+ minute game (Seriously though, when is the last time you had one of those in this meta?) because his abilities are strong at playing protect the carry. Making the carry practically unkillable for a short while due to ult into taunt into aa protection. While the carry is free to lifesteal.

Tanks just fall off. Even Poppy hurts at 35-40 minutes as carries hit full builds. They only get a winrate spike after that due to not being heavily punished for bad positioning.

It doesn't matter if they still fulfill their role, because that isn't what this is about. It is about them falling off. If I have a theoretical assassin that can 100-0 a carry late game with one rotation of their spells then they do their job. However if that same assassin could 100-0 them with 2 abilities mid game then that means they are falling off because while they still do their job, they do not do it as well, it takes more time, there is more than can go wrong, they can't do anything after that etc. etc.

In the same way tanks fall off. Sure they do their job, but their job is to take as much damage as possible before backing off. If they can only soak damage for half the time then they aren't doing their job as well despite still technically doing their job.

YumScrumptious96Jan 24, 20171 votes

Dude, saying a champion falls off late when in actuality they "fall off" for 5 minutes and then playing it off as what you said is dumb. Maokai according to you does fine past 40 minutes which you attribute to his teammates. I'm not gonna bother doing this when someone says tanks fall off yet they still perform their role and don't actually fall off.

Fondling GemsJan 24, 20171 votes

Maybe I say that because I couldn't find a single non-peel tank that doesn't fall off the face of the earth as the game goes on. The only "tanks" that do well very late game are those that can buff/protect multiple full item partymembers. And since they all fall off slightly before that it implies that they lose their ability to tank and have to swap over to the role of a glorified support.

Also note that there are 3 kinds of "Tank" in LoL. There are Tanks, as in champions (Braum Naut Mao Poppy etc.) There are Tanks, as in builds (Anyone who builds thornmail and whatnot is a "Tank") and there is Tank, as in to Tank (Make enemies focus you instead of allies/structures/baron etc.)

A Tank (Champion) might do fine late game, but they are not doing it because they are a Tank (Items) nor are they doing well in fulfilling their role of Tanking because Tank items fall off and as Tanks get comparatively squishier and die faster they are not fulfilling their role of Tanking.

That is just basic math there. A Tank (Champion) might do fine late because of their kit (Example Poppy who has enough damage to make up for it or Shen who has a lot of protection) but if a Tank's ability to do well late doesn't make up for the other things their kits offers then they will fall off because they can't tank. Example being malphite: Despite having a % armour permanent defensive steroid and a % health shield his ult does not make up for how hard his ability to tank falls off. As such after he blows ult he contributes very little to a teamfight and despite having some of the best tools for tanking, he has very little else to offer. As such despite being one of the best champions for tanking late game on paper, he falls off the longer a game goes because if all a Tank can do is Tank then they aren't doing much at all late game because they will still get shredded.

TLDR: If a tank does well late game it is because of their ability to do things beyond tanking as tanking itself falls off as carries hit their items (resulting in the almost universal power drop at 35-40 minutes)

YumScrumptious96Jan 24, 20171 votes

Dude, you are going so far off topic and into it. I'm just saying Maokai doesn't really drop off and most tanks continue to do fine, its why pro teams pick them when games go 35+ minutes the majority of the time. You're just saying that tanks that fall off lategame do so because "tanking damage" isn't as effective, well no shit. No champion that can just take damage is useful, almost every single tank provides CC or damage that works well with the way they are built. Maokai does well because building tanky means he can continue to constantly CC enemy carries.

SnowplosionJan 22, 20176 votes

Nautilus Crying in the corner because forgotten.

DengedenJan 23, 20171 votes

{quoted}

It is Divers like Hecarim that are the problem since they build almost pure tank and can 1 shot the ADC under turret in the middle of all 5 enemies.

Because they're 12-0.

Also ADC's complain they can't kill tanks

But damage creep is still alive and kicking. Sure, we erm, don't know exactly on who but IT'S THERE!

well now you know how it feels, for 2 seasons tanks were getting 4 shot killed by ADC's and when they complained ADC mains mocked them.

Probably because the ADC was 12/0 and they were roflstomping them.

StephenizgodJan 23, 20171 votes

How do you think he gets 12-0? because he keeps diving the enemy and instantly killing them... Have you never played or watched Hecarim gameplay? You can not honestly believe it is ok for him to do that amount of damage.

Damage Creep is now mages and bruisers being basically assassins nowadays, and the strong assassins like LB, Kat, Kha, and Reng are like gods.

again... no.

DengedenJan 24, 20171 votes

Nowadays? What do you think bruisers and mages did before? Hold your hand?

Here's a Hec game to prove you wrong: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0Uh0vXJlAM

There's a Rengar in there too. Want a Kat and LB game too?

StephenizgodJan 24, 20171 votes

Mages never did as much damage as they do now, they hit 2 or 3 abilities and people will die just from that. Ever been hit by a single Xerath Q? You lose about 50% of your HP... its kind of ridiculous. This level of burst used to belong to the Assassin class while Mages would have burst but it would be harder to hit or be spread out through their abilities instead of only like 2.

How does that prove me wrong? Also its one game, you can't use one game as an example... Show me 10 games or 20 games then you can prove me wrong, even then I could show you 100 more games proving me right.

DengedenFeb 1, 20171 votes

So far you've shown me no games to prove you right. You want a playlist of Hecarim games, just google them.

Check out the fight around 17 minutes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQBADxGfQD4

Mages burst squishies, I don't know why you're pretending otherwise.

True, assassins used to be far stronger, then a certain group of people decided they were doing too much damage and Rito nerfed them.

StephenizgodFeb 1, 20171 votes

Thats because i don't waste my time looking for videos to argue with some random person on the internet... Look them up yourself, if you aren't completely delusional you will see that Hecarim is indeed too strong.

When did I say mages didn't burst squishies? I said that earlier their burst wasn't this bad, before getting hit by 1 spell wasn't a big deal, it was when they hit multiple spells in one combo that you actually felt burst. Nowadays they hit 1 or two spells and you lose 50-70% of your HP, it just comes out of no where.

Assassins were far too strong when they were strong, anyone who says otherwise is an assassin main lol. They are still too strong with the exception of like Fizz, Zed, and Talon (Fizz needing a rework and Talon needing buffs of some kind, Zed is strong he is just a niche). Kha, Rengar, Kat, and LeBlanc all need to be retuned, because they are too strong.

nice tableJan 22, 20176 votes

tanks are weak right now out of a few exceptions, the exceptions are more of bruisers than tanks anyways.

YumScrumptious96Jan 23, 20171 votes

Poppy and Maokai aren't bruisers, they don't build any damage dealing items that aren't just tank items with passives.

nice tableJan 23, 20175 votes

don't think you know what a bruiser is though, mundo never builds any non tank item and is still a bruiser.

tanks are utility champions while stuff like mundo solely focuses on dealing damage with almost no utility.

YumScrumptious96Jan 23, 20171 votes

Mundo is a tank primarily though. He doesn't build any items that give him damage off his abilities or auto's normally. He's the same as Maokai or Poppy. Bruisers generally build semi tanky damage items, not straight tank.

DanjengJan 23, 20177 votes

Mundo is an exception to the classification of what makes a bruiser. He's definitely a fighter, not a tank, though his build is usually full tank. Look at his kit, Q is ranged % hp attack, W damages nearby enemies (and CC reduction, common on a lot of bruisers), E is an AD steroid, R gives a MS boost. That doesn't seem like a tank's kit to me.

It's not the build that classifies champions. If I build Lethality on ADC's, does that make them assassins? Likewise, building tank on Mundo doesn't make him a tank, though funnily enough, he's very good at tanking. His main purpose however, is in fighting, rather than providing CC/utility to a team fight.

Hope this explains the classifications to you.

YumScrumptious96Jan 23, 20171 votes

He's not a fighter if he doesn't build any damage items. He's a tank who has damage built into his kit, like all tanks. Its why Poppy does a ton of damage, her Q does % hp damage. R gives an MS boost? Way to ignore the main part of his R, rapid health regen, which definitely seems like tank kit. Nobody designs a tank that can't do any damage, it would be stupid. Most tanks have some % hp damage, like Maokai (W) or Poppy (Q). Poppy's main purpose is fighting as well, she does plenty of damage while also offering CC, just because the champion is meant to get into the fight doesn't mean they aren't a tank. Maokai can kill squishies full tank when he dives in, I guess by your logic he isn't a tank though. The moment you say "Mundo is an exception to the classification of what makes a bruiser" he automatically fails the requirements to be a bruiser. His classification by Riot, which was done a while ago, is fighter then tank, but nobody builds him to be a fighter, he's built full tank. The only fighting aspect of his kit are his basic abilties, because he has no hard CC and no team helping potential so he has to have some damage. He's literally meant to go in and tank the entire enemy team because of his ult and builds while he also does damage that eventually does enough. Jax is a bruiser, Hecarim is a bruiser, Darius and Jarvan are bruisers. What do they have in common? All of them build damage in their normal builds and tank items, not straight up tank items only.

nice tableJan 23, 20173 votes

yeah it seems like you don't actually know what a tank is in a moba sense. id like to know how darius is a bruiser while poppy and maokai aren't when they usually all build the same amount of damage items being 1.

Photos of GhostsJan 24, 20171 votes

But... Poppy and Maokai are tanks...

DanjengJan 23, 20176 votes

Health regen is not an exclusive tank trait. I cannot recall many tanks that DO have health regeneration abilities, as they have shields instead (Nautilus, Malphite). Recovering health is more of a fighter's stat, like Garen or Darius.

Building tank does not make a champion a tank. If I build a warmog's on Vayne, is she a tank? Every aspect of Dr. Mundo's kit is designed for chipping away the opposing laner's health. If you are so set on trying to prove me wrong, here: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/dev-blog-classes-subclasses http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/3A5uuBw7-champion-subclass-list

But maybe I'm wrong, the guy (or lady) above me is wrong, and the rioter is wrong. Maybe it's you who is right, and the whole LoL playerbase is mistaking Mundo for a juggernaut, when in fact, he's actually a tank like you say.

(Note: though remember that classes aren't set in stone. There's a lot of debate on what champion does what. What's Kayle? Is she an ADC or enchanter? Or is she a battle mage? She's pretty good at skirmishing too...)

YumScrumptious96Jan 23, 20171 votes

I definitely don't think the whole LoL playerbase thinks Mundo is a juggernaut, considering none of the top tier players build any damage on him. Maokai has health regen as well, his passive gives him health on auto every time 5 (maybe 4) abilities are used around him or by him. Every ability is desigedn for chipping away the opposing laners HP, except for his ult which you neglected to mention. You know who else has abilties designed to chip away at opposing laners HP? Poppy. Everything in her kit can do damage to enemies, but this is not true to Mundo. If you want to keep saying Mundo is a bruiser, then change it to juggernaut, when he's pretty much only built as a straight tank at high level play, while relying on his base damages like Maokai, and Poppy, then I don't think I can keep this up, seeing as you won't ever change your mind despite clear evidence.

nice tableJan 23, 20177 votes

well i guess this argument really is pointless since according to you a caitlyn buildign ap makes her a mage, lucian building defense makes him a tank and a mundo building AD makes him a adc.

YumScrumptious96Jan 23, 20171 votes

Caitlyn has no AP scaling, nor any benefits from building AP. Lucian can build defense, you can be tank Lucian but he's not a tank in his usual play by players, whereas Mundo is. Mundo's abilities cost HP, he benefits greatly from it and is primarily built to get as much HP as possible. You're trying to put words in my mouth but it seems you don't really have much of an argument left now since all you can do is try and make shit up.

nice tableJan 23, 20173 votes

i don't have any arguments left because its impossible to argue against someone who refuses to accept the truth, its like arguing with a feminist that explains everything they say with "muh vagina doe" except you use "dat build doe" instead.

YumScrumptious96Jan 23, 20171 votes

Not the same thing at all but keep up the terrible analogies. You seriously just don't have much to say. When they consensus build is straight tank, and the champion benefits most from being built as a straight tank, they are a tank.

Glory ln DeathJan 23, 20172 votes

A champion's classification is determined by their playstyle and kit, not their build. The tank class is split into two subclasses: Vanguards and Wardens.

Vanguards are tanks who specialize in initiation and CC - they have some way to jump into the enemy team and then hold them in place for their own team (think Sion and Sejuani). Mundo has no initiation built into his kit, and only a single target slow for CC. He is clearly not a Vanguard.

Wardens stay with their team and protect them from the enemy. Again, they usually have decent amounts of CC. They also normally have some way to buff their allies (Braum's bonus resists, Taric's heal and Shield and invulnerability, etc). Again, Mundo has only a single target slow for CC, and no way to buff allies. He also prefers to be in the middle of the enemy team dealing damage, not in his team protecting carries. Mundo is clearly not a warden.

The only subclass Mundo fits in is Juggernaut. Lots of damage, but only if he can get to you due to low mobility and short range and wants to be in your team wrecking your face. He is certainly the tankiest juggernaut, but he is not a tank.

nice tableJan 23, 20172 votes

i was always wondering how people managed to get to bronze 5, i guess not understanding the game to the point of being linked an official statement by riot and still denying it is one way to do it.

YumScrumptious96Jan 24, 20171 votes

Not bronze 5, barely play ranked matches anyways but whatever.

YumScrumptious96Jan 24, 20171 votes

No Mundo does lots of damage unless you consider that being the average amount for a tank. Almost any juggernaut outdamages him, he just wins through how tanky he is. How does his playerbase determine his classification when they all build him tank? I'm not even talking about the whole "build doesn't determine his classification" I just have no idea how what type of players play Mundo affects what his classification is.

MolossusJan 22, 20173 votes

Not sure what exactly you are suggesting by "nerfing damage". To who/what? Nerfing every champion's damage? Nerfing tower damage and buffing tower defenses?

I do think towers need a damage buff. They do a laughable amount of damage compared to what they used to. They used to kill anyone in like 3-4 shots. Now you can stand under them for days...

Arya RivenJan 22, 201711 votes

Nerfing offensive masteries and/or nerfing/removing keystones. On this account at levels 1-10 I noticed the game is a lot more strategic and fun.

YumScrumptious96Jan 23, 20171 votes

Game is probably more fun because you are smurfing so its easy.

Arya RivenJan 23, 20176 votes

They are more fun because as Riven it takes 3-5 seconds to kill a squishy vs about 1 second on my main account.

YumScrumptious96Jan 23, 20171 votes

That means you are playing against low skill players, which means Riven's aren't good, therefor the game is easy. I don't see how what you said had any point because all it does is prove mine.

Arya RivenJan 23, 20178 votes

Facepalm I am the one playing Riven. Getting huge offensive steroids from the masteries(and somewhat runes) especially keystones.

YumScrumptious96Jan 23, 20171 votes

Dude, I play Riven on my smurf its not hard to do combos that kill in 1 second without max runes masteries. All it requires is skill, which apparently you don't have if you take 3-5 seconds to kill squishies. I'm not even a good Riven and I can do it in under against low levels. Huge offensive steroids is a huge exaggeration. Runes and masteries definitely matter when it comes to playing against certain matchups when the playing field is equal, but if you are innately better than someone else you will win anyways. C9 Jensen played a pro game without using Quints and he absolutely stomped his opponent, who was considered to be a level above him.

Arya RivenJan 23, 20176 votes

You can get over 24% just in damage steroids from masteries plus thunderlords/fervor which are huge. Plus we are talking about 30 runes not missing Quints.