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Take either the true damage or the healing out of Conqueror, or put a long ass cd on it

chipndip1··17 votes·8,598 views

Idk why you guys tried to make a net neutral change to Conqueror when the point was to nerf it so top lane tanks that aren't Sion could breathe again. Its synergy with its initial abusers like Irelia, Jax, and Riven, is now even stronger than before due to the healing it gives while they're fighting.

If the point of Conqueror is to mesh with fighters, fighters will want the bonus AD it gives, right? What-the-fuck-ever. Fine. Idk what's wrong with just using Press the Attack, since fighters love to AA things anyway, but if that rune's so painful, whatever. In a sea of runes, fighters don't have a rune because none of them give raw AD/AP stats.

FINE.

Why the hell does Conqueror also give life steal and true damage at the same time? Instead of negating 20% of your armor, it negates 10% and puts the other 10% it would have ignored into your own hp pool. This is the exact same thing in an drawn out 1v1. The differential is still 20. What have we accomplished? The enemy doesn't die as fast, but now you're effectively a vampire. What have we won from this? Increase the appeal of Bramble Vest?

Conqueror needs to shave some shit. It has too much at once. It gives stats. It gives healing. It gives resistance ignore. It fucking refreshes with a low cd even when you don't refresh it. Why is this rune so overloaded? NERF THIS SHIT. Stop pussy-footing about it and nerf this Hashinshin wet dream out of my nightmares already.

36 Comments

AirKingNeo3 votes

yeah cause Conqueror was such a problem last patch that it saw how many champions in competitive use it?

Saianna3 votes

Increase the appeal of Bramble Vest?

bramble vest or thornmail is still pretty much useless, cause lifesteal still outheals everything. Too many lifesteal items everywhere.

Warlord Rhinark2 votes

{quoted}

bramble vest or thornmail is still pretty much useless, cause lifesteal still outheals everything. Too many lifesteal items everywhere.

I'd argue that Grievous Wounds should be bumped to 50%, not reduce the Lifesteal on Lifesteal items.

Lifesteal items should be worth building in the first place, you know?

Saianna1 votes

Lifesteal items should be worth building in the first place, you know?

Was there such a point where lifesteal was a bad stat? No. It scales simply too good with AD, AS and crit along with crit dmg.

Problem with all of this system is that thornmail was supposed to be an anti-AD item when your tank was dedicated to stack armor, but since like.. season 4 even when he does stack armor and thornmail, he's like portable HP source for enemy ADC simply because of how busted lifesteal is.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

Was there such a point where lifesteal was a bad stat? No. It scales simply too good with AD, AS and crit along with crit dmg.

The recent crit changes leave less room for Lifesteal items to be build if you're going for 100% Crit Chance.

Problem with all of this system is that thornmail was supposed to be an anti-AD item when your tank was dedicated to stack armor, but since like.. season 4 even when he does stack armor and thornmail, he's like portable HP source for enemy ADC simply because of how busted lifesteal is.

And increasing the amount of healing that Grievous Wounds reduces would help.

Bumping Grievous Wounds up to 50% would cut an ADC's Lifesteal in half.

That's a staggering amount. At least, that's in theory.

Saianna2 votes

we need less of everything, rather than more things for balances sake.

ADC can just heal 1-100 with one minion wave is kinda ridiculous. Everyone with no healing abilities has to manage their health, while ADCs do not. If a mage is half HP, he'll stay half HP unless he backs or dies (regen is pointless stat for mages). ADC that just won a duel will be full HP in few seconds.

grievous wounds are weak right now, fine, but lifesteal should also be cut, because it's one of those busted stats that was left unchecked.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

we need less of everything, rather than more things for balances sake.

ADC can just heal 1-100 with one minion wave is kinda ridiculous. Everyone with no healing abilities has to manage their health, while ADCs do not. If a mage is half HP, he'll stay half HP unless he backs or dies (regen is pointless stat for mages). ADC that just won a duel will be full HP in few seconds.

grievous wounds are weak right now, fine, but lifesteal should also be cut, because it's one of those busted stats that was left unchecked.

If an ADC has purchased the amount of Lifesteal that makes them able to "1-100" off of a single minion wave, then they, by extension, will deal less damage than someone who went full Crit.

Building Lifesteal is supposed to be low risk, low reward, whilst building Crit is supposed to be high risk, high reward.

Again, in theory.

Daddy Ants3 votes

Honestly I don't see why Conqueror needs healing...

Just scrap this Conqueror bs and bring back the TRUE FERVOR.

rayzo3 votes

Jesus christ these boards.

boards: "waah tanks are too strong we need a tank buster ruuune waah" riot: gives them a tank buster rune boards: "waah it gets procced too easily and it does too much true damage, we want fervor back waah" riot: turns conqueror into a rune that's basically fervor boards: "waah tanks are too weak and new conqueror is too strong we want tanks back the game was fun with unkillable tanks waah"

sigh the endless whining cycle that is the boards

Sire Hippington2 votes

i'd prefer loosing the truedamage. Damage still is to high in the game and tankstats still feel shit, so shaveing off uneccesary truesamage seems like a nobrainer. And premitigation omnivamp is perfectly fine for fighters to deal with tanks. They won't shred them appart, but they can easily win longer trades by sustaining through the tanks lowish damage and will keep the upper hand 1v1.

SuffocateMeDaddy2 votes

Imagine playing fighter, a class specializing at drawn out fights, picking rune that requires you to stay in fight for prolong amount of time and beating a class that specializes at negating burst but is vulnerable to sustained damage. That would be fucking horrid innit?

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Imagine playing fighter, a class specializing at drawn out fights, picking rune that requires you to stay in fight for prolong amount of time and beating a class that specializes at negating burst but is vulnerable to sustained damage. That would be fucking horrid innit?

The problem is that it's excessive in its contributions. Look at other keystones. Other keystones don't provide nearly as much as this one does, and those that do have longer down times. This one keystone is multi-faceted and is easily accessed.

SuffocateMeDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

The problem is that it's excessive in its contributions. Look at other keystones. Other keystones don't provide nearly as much as this one does, and those that do have longer down times. This one keystone is multi-faceted and is easily accessed.

okay first of all, how do you evaluate value of a keystone? Is it damage dealt at the end of the game? Let me tell you something about inconsistency of melee champion dps and their runes. I can get 3k damage on conqueror as camille in 20 minute game and I can get 1.5k conqueror damage as camille in 35 minute game. Do you know what was the difference? ONCE I LANED AGAINST RANGED CHAMPION. If you want to talk about excessive contributions, why the fuck is noone talking about aftershock giving you 50% damage reduction lvl 1? Why is noone talking about grasp of undying giving you 400 gold of permanent health bonus? Why is noone talking about cleptomancy literally breaking LCS games? No its the evil conqueror that gets all the hate. If it really was so great, everyone would use it.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

okay first of all, how do you evaluate value of a keystone? Is it damage dealt at the end of the game? Let me tell you something about inconsistency of melee champion dps and their runes. I can get 3k damage on conqueror as camille in 20 minute game and I can get 1.5k conqueror damage as camille in 35 minute game. Do you know what was the difference? ONCE I LANED AGAINST RANGED CHAMPION. If you want to talk about excessive contributions, why the fuck is noone talking about aftershock giving you 50% damage reduction lvl 1? Why is noone talking about grasp of undying giving you 400 gold of permanent health bonus? Why is noone talking about cleptomancy literally breaking LCS games? No its the evil conqueror that gets all the hate. If it really was so great, everyone would use it.

Aftershock has a half minute cd per use.

You forget that Conqueror's stacked AD is up to 3 Longswords in value. That's 1050 gold value in comparison to Grasp's 400. Grasp also has 4 seconds of downtime per use.

Kleptomancy's not a good rune, but it's also not nearly this egregious in solo queue.

The problem I have with Conqueror is that the ones that use this rune well use it way too well based on the nature of the rune. Where other runes concentrate their contributions in some kind of moment, and focus their contributions on add-ons to your play, this rune turns on, stays on, and does nothing but give you a bunch of stats. Life steal, AD/AP, and true damage conversion by 10%, and it just persists until the fight's over. There's no cool down, either, so you're free to just stack it up again and get the ball rolling even if you drop it for a bit, unlike Lethal Tempo or PtA.

This rune's been a problem child since its creation. It blows.

Verxint1 votes

400 gold worth of bonus HP is just icing on the cake. Grasp is consistently giving me more damage and more healing than the new Conqueror by a significant margin.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

400 gold worth of bonus HP is just icing on the cake. Grasp is consistently giving me more damage and more healing than the new Conqueror by a significant margin.

No.

Conqueror doesn't calculate the damage you gain from the bonus AD. It only checks the damage conversion damage, as well as the damage conversion damage that would have been negated by armor.

Verxint1 votes

I really doubt the extra damage from 9-45 bonus ad (only when fully stacked) is that dramatic. At best, it's comparable to the damage grasp is doing. In a good matchup I can come out of lane with over 1500 damage done from grasp, even in a good matchup with Conqueror I have around 500 beacuse you often don't get to use the full stacks if you're completely winning lane.

SuffocateMeDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

Aftershock has a half minute cd per use.

You forget that Conqueror's stacked AD is up to 3 Longswords in value. That's 1050 gold value in comparison to Grasp's 400. Grasp also has 4 seconds of downtime per use.

Kleptomancy's not a good rune, but it's also not nearly this egregious in solo queue.

The problem I have with Conqueror is that the ones that use this rune well use it way too well based on the nature of the rune. Where other runes concentrate their contributions in some kind of moment, and focus their contributions on add-ons to your play, this rune turns on, stays on, and does nothing but give you a bunch of stats. Life steal, AD/AP, and true damage conversion by 10%, and it just persists until the fight's over. There's no cool down, either, so you're free to just stack it up again and get the ball rolling even if you drop it for a bit, unlike Lethal Tempo or PtA.

This rune's been a problem child since its creation. It blows.

Alright, propose solution to fighter problem. A fighter is a class of champions that specializes at drawn out fights. Design a rune for such a class. And no press the attack is not a solution. Press the attack was in the game when Jax, Riven, Fiora, Renekton, Darius needed buffs because of tanks.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Alright, propose solution to fighter problem. A fighter is a class of champions that specializes at drawn out fights. Design a rune for such a class. And no press the attack is not a solution. Press the attack was in the game when Jax, Riven, Fiora, Renekton, Darius needed buffs because of tanks.

Just because I can't cough up "the perfect solution" for your nit-picky fighters at the drop of a dime doesn't mean Conqueror's a good solution. Conqueror's still a shit rune either way.

SuffocateMeDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

Just because I can't cough up "the perfect solution" for your nit-picky fighters at the drop of a dime doesn't mean Conqueror's a good solution. Conqueror's still a shit rune either way.

Yeah conqueror is shitty rune, but before asking to remove it, how about you think a little, WHY DO FIGHTERS NEED THAT FUCKING RUNE IN FIRST PLACE HUH?

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Yeah conqueror is shitty rune, but before asking to remove it, how about you think a little, WHY DO FIGHTERS NEED THAT FUCKING RUNE IN FIRST PLACE HUH?

Because most fighter designs are one-dimensional and fall off hard, and that has continued to be a trend for almost all fighters up to Camille. Now they need a ridiculous rune to keep up.

SuffocateMeDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

Because most fighter designs are one-dimensional and fall off hard, and that has continued to be a trend for almost all fighters up to Camille. Now they need a ridiculous rune to keep up.

Really? REALLY? Most fighters are one dimensional? Thats your explanation? Okay, lets talk about most flexible fighter in the game Riven . This champion can be built as bruiser as an assassin and as tank. She had decent win rate in the past all the time BUT THE TIME BEFORE CONQEUROR https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/riven/euw/top/diamond. Before conqueror her win rate was at all time lowest. Now why would that be? A champion that is so flexible, why would that be. And its not like she couldnt take other runes nonono, why do you think conqueror made her win rate spike? BECAUSE OF TANKS. If you want to talk about one dimensional character design, look at tanks.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Really? REALLY? Most fighters are one dimensional? Thats your explanation? Okay, lets talk about most flexible fighter in the game Riven . This champion can be built as bruiser as an assassin and as tank.

That's a skirmisher so the rest of this is moot.

Séance2 votes

{quoted}

Why the hell does Conqueror also give life steal and true damage at the same time? Instead of negating 20% of your armor, it negates 10% and puts the other 10% it would have ignored *into your own hp pool. This is the exact same thing in an drawn out 1v1.

First things first. That's sentence shows a generic lack of understanding about how armor works. It does not ignore 10% of the armor. 10% of the attack ignores 100% of the armor. Second this similar in a long 1v1, however a tank isn't supposed to win a long 1v1 vs a split pusher with conq. The change will slow down the rate of killing the tank, which gives the tank a chance to run away. It isn't meant to allow the tank to fight back. If tanks could be tanky and edge tilt fight back into someone with conq, they would have a 100% play rate in the top lane.

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=little smurf row,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iTGIAAEu,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-02-25T20:23:37.403+0000)

First things first. That's sentence shows a generic lack of understanding about how armor works. It does not ignore 10% of the armor. 10% of the attack ignores 100% of the armor. Second this similar in a long 1v1, however a tank isn't supposed to win a long 1v1 vs a split pusher with conq. The change will slow down the rate of killing the tank, which gives the tank a chance to run away. It isn't meant to allow the tank to fight back. If tanks could be tanky and edge tilt fight back into someone with conq, they would have a 100% play rate in the top lane.

The issue goes beyond just tanks. The rune's overloaded. It provides fighters the means to fight tanks, THEN provides fighters the means to fight literally everyone else. Sustain drags out fights if they aren't bursted (which they'll rarely be), AD helps them pop squishier dudes, and true damage eats through tankier dudes. This rune has way too much at once.

Séance1 votes

{quoted}

The issue goes beyond just tanks. The rune's overloaded. It provides fighters the means to fight tanks, THEN provides fighters the means to fight literally everyone else. Sustain drags out fights if they aren't bursted (which they'll rarely be), AD helps them pop squishier dudes, and true damage eats through tankier dudes. This rune has way too much at once.

honestly the adaptive force is pretty small. 50 adaptive force at 5 stacks gives 30 ad. Also in order to actually get the sustain, you have to get it to max. Keeping in mind that often fights are explosive and everyone tends to dump all the cooldowns in a pretty short span, Im guessing many fighters will end up maxing on stacks after dropping most key cooldowns, and as a result won't actually get much healing because they aren't doing much dps that late into the fight. I understand that this can be counteracted by trying to poke before the fight to charge it up, but many fighters don't have a very good poke ability, and this can usually be countered just by an engagement from the team that is getting poked. TLDR adaptive isn't super significant, healing looks like more than it will probably end up being due to fighters burning key CD's before charged up.

EDIT: my ideal version would involve the true damage gone in exchange for more sustain or damage per stack, but I think its perfectly acceptable as is.

Verxint3 votes

"fighters can fight literally everyone" Wow, a class called "fighters" are good at fighting people. Holy shit alert the presses.

BobaFlautist1 votes

Not gonna do the math right now, but off the top of my head 10% of the damage ignoring 100% of the armor (or mr) should have an identical result to 100% of the damage ignoring 10% of resistances. The only difference would be that true damage also ignores things like % reduction and crit reduction.

Séance1 votes

{quoted}

Not gonna do the math right now, but off the top of my head 10% of the damage ignoring 100% of the armor (or mr) should have an identical result to 100% of the damage ignoring 10% of resistances. The only difference would be that true damage also ignores things like % reduction and crit reduction.

Ex; attack has 100 damage target has 100 armor (50% negation) ordinary value to get through 50 damage 100% of arrack negating 10% of armor (basically target has 90 armor which gives ) 52.63 damage 10% of attack negating 100% of armor (10 true damage + 90 damage normal attack vs 100 armor) 55 damage

As you can see not quite the same thing.

Verxint2 votes

I made a graph to compare the damage, true damage conversion is stronger than raw penetration, especially at higher armor levels. This is probably by design, it's barely more effective than penetration at low resistances but significantly more effective at high resistances. There's a reason Riot has been throwing true damage around for durability busting, it actually is healthier than using penetration because it doesn't increase damage to squishies by nearly as much. Notice how the difference between no penetration and 10% penetration is tiny, and is almost the same even at high armor levels, but the difference between 10% penetration and conqueror gets larger and larger the more armor you have.

https://i.imgur.com/dZZQxPZ.png

Séance1 votes

{quoted}

I made a graph to compare the damage, true damage conversion is stronger than raw penetration, especially at higher armor levels. This is probably by design, it's barely more effective than penetration at low resistances but significantly more effective at high resistances. There's a reason Riot has been throwing true damage around for durability busting, it actually is healthier than using penetration because it doesn't increase damage to squishies by nearly as much. Notice how the difference between no penetration and 10% penetration is tiny, and is almost the same even at high armor levels, but the difference between 10% penetration and conqueror gets larger and larger the more armor you have.

https://i.imgur.com/dZZQxPZ.png

Thank you for that, pretty much illustrates my point that it is not even close to the same thing.

MankeyMadness2 votes

Yes my 2 auto attacks in any trade makes PtA worth taking. :^)

No.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Yes my 2 auto attacks in any trade makes PtA worth taking. :^)

No.

The 12% bonus damage from all sources and the bonus damage on proc is the good part.

Ryukuss1 votes

what about Renekton he is king of top lane again.

HommeGoujon1 votes

No, he's not.

FioraWillCarry1 votes

wow...here we go again with all the bullshit fuss over Conquerer. Conquerer is total shit compared to what it was before and yall are still crying.

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