Witnessing a Jhin depserately trying to fight back against poppy is just sad. Like, they're THE class who builds six damage items and everything that has moderately high damage can kill them easily.
The horror of a tank wailing at them without them being able to retaliate is justified.
IcyPepper20 votesI dunno, Jhin is more bursty than he is dps-y. Along with Ezreal, I feel like he's one of the ADC's that should struggle against tanks while being good against other squishies. Basically the opposite of what Vayne should be.
While you make a fair point, your example isn't the best because Jhin isn't much of a tank buster, he's too bursty.
Ahristocats5 votespoppy is also gamebreaking
using her as an example isn't accurate
IcyPepper2 votesI wouldn't go that far, but she's certainly one of the tankiest tanks in recent tanking tankistory.
Mira Arya Enthe14 votesA tad disappointed in this post I'm afraid. It lacks the depth of the matter.
1: A melee who manages to get on top of and stay on top of a ranged champioj should win. Range already wins at any other range just by being ranged.
2: Poppy and a couple other "tanks" are OP at the moment. But real normal tanks like Sej and Amumu are actually underwhelming in this meta and die rapidly. Only hyper damage tanks, diver tanks and fighters are being oppressive. You are using the strongest example, Poppy.
3: A ranged champion who builds 6 damage items(should be 4 damage, 1 defense and boots) and does the most DPS and high burst from 500-750 range must die in seconds when out of position because otherwise this kill everything. Plus with lifesteal they drain tank to full.
4: Just a couple months ago it was ADCs who were the most oppressive thing in League. They still can be late game or if fed. Jhin 2 shotting tanks with 70+45%+7% armor pen had to stop eventually.
5: Rito has been on vacation. Even they get holidays. Issues like Poppy will be addressed when they return.
6: Top lane is finally swinging back towards melee. After months of Gnar/Kennen/Jayce every game. Granted the jungle swung too far and jungle adcs/mages are now invalid. But can't be all good news.
WoonStruck1 votesGranted the jungle swung too far and jungle adcs/mages are now invalid. But can't be all good news.
Just FYI, Elise is one of the strongest junglers atm in the opinion of many Masters/Challenger players. It'll catch on eventually.
Meta is gank-heavy champs that don't have issues clearing the jungle. Elise is one of them and still performs much like Lee Sin in overall safety, versatility, and kill potential.
Doesn't invalidate your point; other AP junglers, barring her/Zac, are exceedingly weak atm. Just thought I'd let you know.
Oh, and farm-heavy jungle playstyles in general are weak atm. You can't get ahead/stay even power-farming now.
Poor Shyvanna. :/
As a champion she's still pretty damn strong, but you have to make successful ganks early to get there now. Jungle meta just doesn't suit her well atm.
Penns1 votesWell 2: They dont "die rapidly" at all, they are just as dumb as Poppy.. Just that they get outclassed by broken tank bruisers like Vi, Heca and Lee.
3: No one is arguing against that, but they shouldnt die in seconds against a tank.
4: Why exactly does that matter now?
Ralanr1 votesHow many seconds matters though considering how much time passes in league with 1 second.
Irelia Bot1 votesThey are nerfign Jungle EXP again http://www.surrenderat20.net/2017/01/13-pbe-update.html
But they are also making the Razorbeak camp worth taking.
LankPants2 votesI think this accomplishes the opposite of what they want to achieve. How am I meant to play Sejuani/Amumu/Gragas if I can't even get 6 from the jungle? The only junglers worth playing will be the ones who don't need EXP even more so. The meta's just going to centralise even harder around Lee Sin and friends than it already has.
Irelia Bot3 votesI might be wrong but doesn't amumu have flat damage reduction from E and a lot of AoE damage
LankPants5 votesYes, but he already full clears the jungle, as do Sej and Grag. Holistically jungle EXP is massively down. Being able to take raptors doesn't matter because he already does. What matters is that 2 whole jungle clears no longer gives 6 so your powerspike is pushed way back while shitters like Lee Sin get to spend longer uncontested.
Surfer Ashe1 votesI'm pretty sure the net difference is minimal since Raptors are gaining a heap of EXP.
Which means junglers that can clear it with ease (aka the 3 aforementioned tank junglers) will see little to no change while Lee Sin (who struggles with them without Tiamat) will get a minor nerf to level speed.
Which also means if you can't gank early (and Lee will 90% chance be in a lane after double buffs) you can steal his Raptors with ease to set yourself well ahead and him further behind if he's unsuccessful.
I haven't crunched all the numbers yet, but seeing what Blue and Red losing combined is going into just one small Raptor isn't going to affect the tank junglers.
LankPants1 votesRaptors give 105 more EXP
Krugs give 68 less EXP Red gives 10 less Blue gives 10 less Gromp gives 10 less
This works out to a net difference of 7 EXP before you account for the 25% drop on first clear EXP. The 25% drop costs you 115 EXP, the exact number isn't confirmed yet, but it's around 25%, so it'll be around 115.
Two full clears net you a total loss of 81 EXP. Two full clears of the jungle barely got you level 6 before, while I haven't tested yet I'm willing to bet you lose level 6 off of 2 full clears.
Tank junglers are reliant on getting to their ults, any change that makes this harder hits them disproportionately.
Which also means if you can't gank early (and Lee will 90% chance be in a lane after double buffs) you can steal his Raptors with ease to set yourself well ahead and him further behind if he's unsuccessful.
Invading Lee Sin's jungle as a tank is more than often too risky. Sure you can do it if you see him, but he'll more than likely be prioritising his raptors anyway since they have so much EXP, I think Raptors a buff and Scuttle give lv 3 now, so there's a solid chance you walk in and his path was Red>Raptors. If you can't see him it's always a bad idea to invade Lee as a tank, or anyone really.
Surfer Ashe1 votesWith that being said, I still don't necessarily agree the changes phase out tank junglers.
They seem to be targetting primarily single target junglers, who happen to be gank oriented (Lee, Shaco) and perhaps smoothing out those with good clears and ganks like Hecarim and Zac.
I also wouldn't consider Sej, Mumu nor Grag Level 6 reliant junglers since some have multiple forms of CC and gapclosing well before then. Especially seen in previous metas where they abuse this fact really well.
The only thing this truly would hurt are the Shyvana's, Yi's and Warwick's of the jungle.
Big Lincoln9 votesLike, they're THE class who builds six damage items and everything that has moderately high damage can kill them easily.
Glass cannons die to everything? Who could have seen that coming?
Mira Arya Enthe4 votesThank you.
LankPants7 votesWe're complaining about Jhin, the ADC without constant DPS but who gets absurd range and burst potential as a tradeoff not being able to kill a tank? I'd say working as intended. A character like Jhin, who's so adept at bursting and zoning squishy champs should not have an easy time killing tanks.
Akali is SO HOT7 votesIf you build 6 damage items and no defense then you should die to almost anything. You can't build 6 damage items and be impossible to kill at the same time 
that would be broken. Poppy is also pretty stupid op right now and she's really hard to kill for anyone atm.
JackMcSnipeyz2 votesFair enough, you should die to anything (and ADC DO die to anything), but they should also be able to kill anything if given space to work from. People cant complain about ADC killing everyone in teamfights AND say they should die to anyone. ADC is high risk high reward (some are too safe though like cait and vayne to some extent)
Tychusfindlay9192 votes[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iT50TJ6b,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2017-01-04T04:23:29.954+0000)
If you build 6 damage items and no defense then you should die to almost anything. You can't build 6 damage items and be impossible to kill at the same time
Nothing in her kit has changed, its just how incredibly easy it is for her to proc CoC and get in the middle of an enemy team.
still works as a hardcore poppy counter at ALL stages of the game.
Marshbouy6 votesTrying to find the fine line when marksman are balanced against tanks and tanks are not oppressive to marksman is incredibly hard.
Pierce The Veal1 votesTrying to find the fine line when marksman are balanced against tanks and tanks are not oppressive to marksman is incredibly hard.
The line where ADCs show up in 50-80% of games instead of multiple ADCs in every game sounds like a good line.
Surfer Ashe4 votesIt's not just Poppy folks.
Wake up.
Genocide Victim3 votesPoppy is broken though
GigglesO3 votesBut that is just poppy... most other tanks can't do that.
Ben Sharpio2 votespeople categorize the whole tank champion pool to just poppy. So when people are saying tanks are too strong they're saynig poppy is too strong.
WoonStruck1 votesIts not just Poppy. Poppy is an issue, but so is tank itemization and the way other itemization interacts with it.
It leads to many feast/famine scenarios regarding anyone who attempts to utilize any of it.
RogueWill1 votesTank itemization is made in such a way that tanks can shine when they are supposed to (mid game). That's why they are considerably cheaper but offer diminished returns instead (tank items is usually around 80% efficient while damage items are usually 90% efficient). Also tanks are meant to have more limited access to gold (since every other champion class on a lane can outdamage them or just kite them, some can do both, and jungle offers considerable less potential gold than a lane).
Also tank itemization is the one with the weakest actives on the game and relias mostly on invisible passives, in fact there is very limited amount of items actives for tanks and they end up being enchancers for someone else instead of directly benefit the tank. The only exceptions I can think of is 
WoonStruck1 votes
is a tank item. Probably the most powerful active in the game right now.
was gutted due to how powerful it was. It doesn't see use at all now, and won't unless its on very, very specific champions.
as you've said.
as you've said.
was just a bad concept from the ground up.
is not a tank item.
As you can see, tank actives are some of the best in the game.
The issue is not quality, its quantity.
That's why you saying:
Also tank itemization is the one with the weakest actives on the game
Is completely false.
RogueWill1 votes
have way better actives than a potential or . They also work the same regardless of how many allies you have close to you or if you are alone, solari works worse if you are alone since is balanced around having 2 or 3 people around you to make it effective.
are the best available for mages, seraph and hextech belt are a niche but Zhonias has arguable one of the best active on the game, regardless of your role but the AP makes it quite a pick on mages.
Is a must buy on most assasin, and is an upgrade of the weak passive that 
provides. They also can benefit from AP items or ADC items active deepening if they are AP or AD.
Is probably the only item with an active that is exclusively for figther, but they can pretty much use the actives from every other class to some extent.
Tanks actives are among the worst of the game, only better than fighters one but fighters can use tanks items anyway so is not like they have it worse.
Enhancers have the best actives on the game and tanks have the worse. They have quite a few strong passives items but since damage is meant to become stronger than defense late game it has limited use.
Ralanr1 votesNo, they're saying that Poppy, Vi, and Hecarim are too strong. Because most of the playerbase really doesn't care to understand the difference.
/salt.
Irelia Bot3 votesgetting 15% (passive ) or 30%(active) increased armor and MR from W combined with a 5 second shield on a 10 second cooldown that provides 20% of max health makes poppy a bit excessive in durability though.
Last I heard Riot plans to hit some of her durability.
Subject 53 votesLike . . . how did Poppy get to the backline so easily? Was this guy out of place? Sounds an awful lot like that would be the case.
WoonStruck2 votesI think a large portion of the problem is tank itemization. Its too slot-efficient and cheap at the same time.
Vs Jhin for example, tanks get everything they need from one or two items.
Significant Armor+HP+damage; no, its not just sunfire. Most tank items offer extremely synergistic stats on top of a very good active/passive; in some cases, both.
Imagine if there was an ADC item that offered significant AD+AS, and armor pen+potent passives/actives for under 3k gold. Everyone would be in an uproar.
The answer to this has always been Last Whisper since season 1. But there are many issues with this because it makes it so tanks often feel as useless against ADCs after the purchase as ADCs felt vs tanks before the purchase.
I feel like Riot needs to address how tankiness and damage interact with each other without having one effectively bypass the other in order to answer it.
#**ADCs should out-scale tankiness, not invalidate it. Tanks should feel tanky, not feel unkillable without someone bypassing a good portion of that tankiness. **
Until Riot addresses that via itemization, I don't think ADCs and tanks can both be balanced at the same time in this game anymore. Damage creep has gone a bit too far for that.
A Bad Nasus2 votesPoppy is just an abomination right now not the best example.
Stephenizgod2 votesWowowowowow hold on a second, you can't compare Poppy to other tanks, she is ridiculous right now.
Also Jhin isn't really a tank-buster, he is suppose to be weak when someone jumps on his face.
Vallalan2 votesADC main here, what you describe isn't the issue.
in a straight 1 v 1. for most of the early and mid game, an adc should probably lose to a tank. that's just how its always been.
late game even, unless that adc has his LDR, a BT, and 70% + crit with a ton of AD, he probably still shouldn't be able to deal with a tank in a 1 v 1 especially if tank has a stun or ultimate up.
where the issue is right now is in team fights. ADCs are a class that has the highest dps, but they have almost non existent dps for most of the game which is a bad feeling. in team fights you can position well and wail on the tank hitting your front line, but it doesnt matter he's eventually going to kill your front line and you've barely gotten through 1/5 of their health bar at best.
tanks deal too much damage early in the game. its a fundamental design problem though that I don't know if you can fix by just "nerfing tanks damage". if you nerf tanks base damages you have problems late game where they are already able to be shredded.
personally I want to see a world where ADCs have a more steady power curve and Tanks are actually tanky in the late game. Right now its a weird curve where tanks are gods in the mid game and get melted late game. and adcs are basically a caster minion for 35 minutes then become gods as well. the thing is I'm not sure how you do this.
if you gut base damage you have to give tanks a scaling source of damage of some kind while still allowing them to build damage? I would personally like for tanks to deal less damage but be TANKIER in the late game. so maybe weaken base damage, but buff their scaling stats signficantly on all melee champs. this is not something that will be fixed over night though. they can't just fix this in a patch or two. this is a fundamental design flaw with marksman and how they interact with tanks.
Tychusfindlay9191 votes[{quoted}](name=Chuck CharIes,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iT50TJ6b,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2017-01-04T11:17:32.521+0000)
ADC main here, what you describe isn't the issue.
in a straight 1 v 1. for most of the early and mid game, an adc should probably lose to a tank. that's just how its always been.
late game even, unless that adc has his LDR, a BT, and 70% + crit with a ton of AD, he probably still shouldn't be able to deal with a tank in a 1 v 1 especially if tank has a stun or ultimate up.
where the issue is right now is in team fights. ADCs are a class that has the highest dps, but they have almost non existent dps for most of the game which is a bad feeling. in team fights you can position well and wail on the tank hitting your front line, but it doesnt matter he's eventually going to kill your front line and you've barely gotten through 1/5 of their health bar at best.
tanks deal too much damage early in the game. its a fundamental design problem though that I don't know if you can fix by just "nerfing tanks damage". if you nerf tanks base damages you have problems late game where they are already able to be shredded.
personally I want to see a world where ADCs have a more steady power curve and Tanks are actually tanky in the late game. Right now its a weird curve where tanks are gods in the mid game and get melted late game. and adcs are basically a caster minion for 35 minutes then become gods as well. the thing is I'm not sure how you do this.
if you gut base damage you have to give tanks a scaling source of damage of some kind while still allowing them to build damage? I would personally like for tanks to deal less damage but be TANKIER in the late game. so maybe weaken base damage, but buff their scaling stats signficantly on all melee champs. this is not something that will be fixed over night though. they can't just fix this in a patch or two. this is a fundamental design flaw with marksman and how they interact with tanks.
I'm all for smoothing out the power curve of both tanks and ADCs.
It should really be a champion's kit that determines which stage they excel at or under which conditions, not the items they buy.
Athenes Lulu2 votesAn ADC main says this the thread is downvoted. A non-ADC main says this free upvotes.
When will people realize that "tank meta" is not even that healthy?
Ralanr3 votesWhat meta is? Not assassins, not mages, not marksmen, and certainly not bruiser metas (which we are currently in).
Sky of Smiles1 votes[{quoted}](name=Cancerous Lulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iT50TJ6b,comment-id=0011,timestamp=2017-01-04T11:30:13.874+0000)
When will people realize that "tank meta" is not even that healthy?
^ BURN THIS WITCH!
Copy Mirror1 votesAs an ADC main I really don't see where anyone from both sides is coming from. This might be due to the fact that I still have nightmares from undying Mundo bank in the Juggernaut update. LIKE DAMMIT THAT MUNDO WAS GETTING ATTACKED BY 5 PEOPLE WHY WAS HE NOT TAKING DMG!? (tank god that's over)
Over Innsmouth1 votesThat's not tanks, that's just Poppy.
And Nautilus.
420 grams1 votesJhins a bad example. But tanks are super strong right now since towers are so weak and tanks can kill adcs even with no damage items
