Understanding Skirmishers for 2017

Critkeeper··27 votes·14,781 views

#Purpose of this thread I feel like Skirmishers are poorly understood, both by the player-base and RIOT. I've played over 6 thousand ranked games from season 2 till now with just skirmishers, so I'd like to share my expertise on how they are differentiated from each other, what makes them tick, and how to compare, make, or maintain a skirmisher.

#What makes Skirmishers different Skirmishers are differentiated from the other melee classes by their reliance on game-changing situational defenses. These defenses offer windows of power and weakness. If the power is used correctly and the weakness is managed properly, skirmishers can devastate enemy teams while denying attempts to retaliate.

Skirmisher effectiveness is tied to both the ability of the player to leverage their strengths and enemy to expose their weaknesses-- but because these strengths and weaknesses typically stand so starkly together, skirmishers tend to feel very volatile when they are balanced properly. A skirmisher might perform poorly in one fight, but extremely well in another, so predicting how influential they will be in any given fight is often extremely difficult. This volatility is the "special spice" that makes skirmishers feel so heart pounding and intense to play as and against.

Contrast this with permanent defenses, like resistances or health, which have no downtime, cannot really be used improperly, thus provide no volatility. Ultimately the influence of some amount of health or resistances is very predictable. The "predictable but inevitable" pattern infuses a radically different feeling than the "unpredictable but devastating" pattern infused by situational defenses. Generally, the first pattern belongs to juggernauts and the second belongs to skirmishers.

Situational defense falls into three categories, with pros / cons (in that order) from the perspective of the skirmisher:

#Mobility (boosts, crowd control reduction or removal, dashes, blinks, etc)

  • improved target selection makes it easier to keep a snowball going
  • are ineffective against very wide persistent area of effect or targeted abilities and auto attacks (the enemy backline)

#Durability (shields, heals, invulnerability, bonus resistances, etc)

  • makes it easier to stop an enemy snowball
  • use is always predictable

#Threat (enormous target agnostic damage output, punishing cc, victory effects like fiora aoe heal, etc)

  • relatively unmitigateable effects make it easier to start a snowball
  • ineffective against targets that can avoid, control, withstand or evade your threat envelope

Skirmishers can be compared to eachother according to their specialization in these areas. The following table is normalized such that the total points for a given champion is 9.

#Skirmishers |Name |Mobility |Durability|Threat | |- |Ekko |3 |4 |2 | |Fiora |3 |2 |4 | |Jax |3 |4 |2 | |Master Yi |5 |1 |3 | |Riven |4 |2 |3 | |Tryndamere |3 |4 |2 | |Yasuo |3 |3 |3

#Totals |Mobility |Durability |Threat | |- |24 |20 |19

We can group skirmishers according to how they specialize:

#Archetypes (1 4 4) Achilles (1 3 5) Extremist (3 3 3) Generalist (2 2 5) Paragon (2 3 4) Specialist

#Archetype populations |Name |Population | |- |Achilles |0 | |Extremist |1 | |Generalist |1 | |Paragon |0 | |Specialist |5

It isn't necessarily the case that having a perfect spread these archetypes would add value to league of legends, but we can atleast agree that everyone being a generalist diminishes the value of the game-- strong differentiation makes the game more interesting strategically.

Furthermore the fact that there are only 5 archetypes is an artifact of the constraints that the normalization of the table was 9 points, the values must be whole numbers, and the choice of only 3 orthogonal stats. Notice that without these constraints, we would simply have more archetypes to fit around and in between 5 specified here, but the amount by which they differ would be smaller; I feel that these 5 archetypes are sufficiently expose the entire skirmisher design space.

#How many of each archetype could we expect to have? For extremist and specialist, there can be 6 potential differences on the ordered [Mobility Durability Threat] [1 3 5] [1 5 3] [3 1 5] [3 5 1] [5 1 3] [5 3 1] [2 3 4] [2 4 3] [3 2 4] [3 4 2] [4 2 3] [4 3 2] So in the long term, we would expect a lot of specialists and extremists.

For Paragon and Achilles, there can be 3 potential differences on the ordered [Mobility Durability Threat] [2 2 5] [2 5 2] [5 2 2] [1 4 4] [4 1 4] [4 4 1] So in the long term, we would expect some paragons and Achilles.

There is no differentiation between two generalists, which is why it is dangerous to have more than one generalist in a given class in the roster. In the long term we would expect very few or perhaps only one generalist.

The table I provided is based on my extensive personal experience, but is ultimately subjective. However, if you find the table agreeable, you will note that we have no paragon or achilles (as of yet). If Ekko continues to be a persistent problem, or if Tryndamere's frustratingly one dimensional gameplay is addressed in a future skirmisher class update, they might be moved to Achilles and Paragon; moreover, new skirmishers might be created some time in the future to better represent the entire scope of the skirmisher space.

#Better use of the Skirmisher Design Space

Notice that Mobility seems to be over-represented as a kind of situational defense. Notice also of the 5 specialists, Jax, Ekko and Tryndamere overlap as [3 4 2], and there is no [4 3 2], [2 4 3] or [2 3 4] specialist on [Mobility Durability Threat]. Having 3 of 5 specialists overlap isn't ideal because it creates the same issues that are had by having more than one generalist-- they compare so similarly that only one can be considered "worth picking".

Currently this is handled by allowing them to differentiate from each other according to what sort of champions or team compositions they are best against, but strictly speaking this is less ideal than simply allowing these champions to exist in different positions in the skirmisher space if the intention is to increase champion diversity.

We can use the table above to think more clearly about how to optimize our current usage of the skirmisher space, so that we can use as much as possible. As an exercise, think about which of Jax, Ekko and Trynd should fit the [3 4 2] pattern most closely, and which should fit least closely, based on their theme, identity and ideals.

#Jax

I would say that Jax fits this pattern most closely. Ideally, he would be more durable than he is mobile, and more mobile than he is threatening. He isn't supposed to blow you up instantly or devastate you in the blink of an eye if you are tanky. His cadence shouldn't revolve around a singular point or moment. He should take the punches and blows you throw at him in stride, leap around hazards and smash you in a straight brawl, and that seems to be his pattern currently.

#Ekko

Ekko doesn't seem to want to fit this pattern as well as Jax should, even if he currently does. The idea of Ekko ought to be one that leverages time to survive lethal encounters, and uses patience to set up the perfect fight. That sort of ideal fits a [4 1 4] pattern, not a [3 4 2] pattern. His primary way to survive should be through threat, threatening to do enormous damage to you, threatening to stun your entire team-- not straight durability, not massive shields.

Ekko should feel like he cheats time with his mobility, easily moving around hazards and rewinding the one thing he can't avoid. But the underlying dynamic that was supposed to make Ekko feel relatable was the fact that he's just a kid-- his weakness should be his durability, it shouldn't be his strength.

#Tryndamere

Tryndamere doesn't fit the [3 4 2] pattern either. Ideally, Tryndamere is a guy who takes an axe to the gut, shrugs it off, and slams people with a huge blunt sword that can split stone, but does he feel that way? Does the sword feel big and heavy to you? It doesn't, but it should-- thats the point of Trynd. We can see RIOT's attempts to make the sword feel enormous, letting Trynd drag it behind him, but seeing Trynd attack with it 2 times a second kind of destroys the illusion.

Tryndamere in general probably isn't executed very well, but if he were executed properly his pattern would likely be [2 5 2] or [1 5 3]. Imagine a tough sum'bitch with a 8 foot sword. Alright, does "Mobility" come to mind when you think of that? No of course not. He should be someone who relishes a large fight, not someone who can't even function in one. You will note that none of the skirmishers are rated below 3 on mobility. In order to allow any skirmisher to function with low mobility, they'd have to have multiple cheap and effective defenses, not just one costly one. One costly defense makes the champion too binary, either win all or lose all. He has to be able to win some and lose some without winning or losing everything.

23 Comments

Jbels7 votes

This post was well thought out, had a strong message, and went into decent analysis about a certain misunderstood subclass in League. -1

Seriously though, I love the idea of a Tryndamere that whacks you once with a sword and you actually feel it, and hate the Tryn we have that hits your 4 times in two seconds and you die

Blessthefall3 votes

Imagine a tough sum'bitch with a 8 foot sword.

I immediately thought of Guts from the anime Berserk! I would absolutely love that to be tryndamere xD

aqours fanboy3 votes

Cried reading this, made me so happy.

+1, m8.

jaymc11302 votes

Interesting stuff as always mate. Well worth the read. Now I have things to ponder.

nanoless1 votes

Have an upvote for sharing the dream of ap skirmisher ekko being the prominent build.

SpookyNeedle1 votes

It just makes me happy that Fiora has the highest threat level :D

Weiner the Pooh1 votes

same.

Bladerunner77771 votes

I disagree with your classifications. Ima just copy/paste what I said in another thread earlier today:


"Tank" , "Fighter", and "Assassin" are an extremely broad way to tag champions.

A champion's "tag" is better for describing what position that champion can be played (Top/Mid/Jg/Supp/ADC). That hardly matters, what really matters is what role that champion plays in a team composition.

Hecarim and Darius are both listed as "Fighter/Tank", yet the two champions aren't even remotely similar other than Fighters and Tanks having a tendency to be played in the Top lane or Jungle.

Darius has no gapclosers, pitiful CC, is easily kited, etc. He makes up for his shortcomings by being very durable and dealing a metric shit-ton of damage, as I'm sure most people are familiar with.

Because of his cons, Darius shines during the laning phase; he is a duelist. A duelist is a champion that WANTS to fight their lane opponent, and sometimes 1v2 against the jungler. Being a "duelist" doesn't automatically mean you're a splitpusher like Jax or Tryndamere (who are also duelists). Darius wants to get fed during laning phase and then use his major advantage to kill everything in teamfights.

Darius is ALSO a Juggernaut. A Juggernaut is a champ with lame mobility, lame CC, lots of durability, and tons of damage.

All of this combined means Darius is a Top laner, a Juggernaut, AND a Duelist; more than a mere Tank/Fighter.


Now look at Hecarim.

Hecarim does not even come close to Darius' damage potential, nor is he nearly as tanky as Darius, but that's okay because Hecarim isn't trying to do the same thing Darius does. What Hecarim has that Darius doesn't is very potent CC and tons of mobility (and burst tied to that mobility). Hec's boons aren't very useful in the laning phase which is why he is played in the Jungle: Mobility and CC for ganking are valued far more in the jg than in lane (the only reason he isn't a top laner anymore is because of the removal of early homeguards, he had the best TP ganks in the game before hand).

Where Hecarim really shines is in teamfights. Hec's contribution to his team is bursting a carry (or two) and disrupting the rest of the team in the process. This does not make Hecarim an assassin though, because Hec doesn't have enough damage to reliably 1 shot the ADC unless they have no escape or peel. This makes Hecarim an "All-inner", a champion that performs best in teamfights. All-inners are either super tanky (Malph/Sej/Amumu), have a ton of damage (Kennen/Wukong/Rumble), or a mixture of both like in Hecarim's case.

This kind of champion depth is why I love League of Legends


Now back to talking about Elise, Lee, Fizz, etc

An Assassin (not the tag, a REAL assassin) is a champ that can reliably blow up a squishy in a teamfight or when they are caught out of position.

The REAL Assassins are Zed, Talon, Rengar, Kha'zix, and Leblanc

All of these champions have tons of mobility and tons of fast burst. All of these champions can actually 100-0 a squishy with even a slight advantage.

Champions like Elise LeeSin Nidalee Ekko and Fizz just... can't do that. These champions require a lot of poking or setup before you can hit the switch and go in. They lack the damage to reliably delete a carry (unless they're super fed), BUT they make up for it with utility. "Utility Assassins" aren't a bad thing (I see people complain about this), it IS a problem however if these Utility Assassins are dealing as much damage if not more than a true Assassin. The same could be said about ADCs vs Utility ADCs; it's not okay for Ashe to out-damage Kog'maw (not that I'm saying this is true or not right now).

These champions aren't the best at 1v1s, they aren't the best in teamfights, but the place that they REALLY shine is in 2v2s, 3v3s, and 2v3s; AKA skirmishes, making these champions: "skirmishers".

Also notice how all of the champions I listed are Jungler or they can Jungle, that's just the tendency of Utility Assassins/Skirmishers

DISCLAIMER: This is under the assumption that the champion in question isn't ultra-fed. An ultra-fed Ekko can give the illusion of being a "true assassin", but he really isn't

If these Skirmishers have too much Utility then you will see things like Tank Ekko running amok, and if they have too much damage then you will see complaints all over the boards. This makes this class of champions hard to balance by nature because you can't have too much of either (or too little of either which = useless champ).

That's just my opinion

Arts1 votes

I guess both Tryndameres have sub-optimal execution ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Eh no aatrox? Plox

Critkeeper1 votes

{quoted}

Eh no aatrox? Plox

I chose to make the table on the primary skirmishers from here:

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/3A5uuBw7-champion-subclass-list

I'm not sure if Kled was supposed to be a skirmisher or a diver, so I didn't include him.

According to that list, Aatrox is a diver (i disagree with riot on that, but there it is).

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Ah okay thanks.

JustMonika131 votes

{quoted}

I chose to make the table on the primary skirmishers from here:

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/3A5uuBw7-champion-subclass-list

I'm not sure if Kled was supposed to be a skirmisher or a diver, so I didn't include him.

According to that list, Aatrox is a diver (i disagree with riot on that, but there it is).

Yes, Kled is supposed to be a Skirmisher, or at least according to whoever wrote his Champion Preview page. In the Teamfights section, it states that Kled's best played as a Skirmisher.

Ragingg1 votes

I'm curious on the thoughts of giving tryndamere a slow flat attack speed, like graves reload and using his attack speed as a damage multiplier? 0.5 attacks per second flat, and a multiplier scaling from 1.0 to 2.0 Base on attack speed so when he hits you once you feel it but that's it for a while..

(numbers are theoretical I know with the correct build he'd 1 hit squishies

Critkeeper1 votes

{quoted}

I'm curious on the thoughts of giving tryndamere a slow flat attack speed, like graves reload and using his attack speed as a damage multiplier? 0.5 attacks per second flat, and a multiplier scaling from 1.0 to 2.0 Base on attack speed so when he hits you once you feel it but that's it for a while..

(numbers are theoretical I know with the correct build he'd 1 hit squishies

I think moving him in that direction somewhat would make him feel more like what he's supposed to feel like. I would probably set it to 0.7-1 attack per second based on his level or something. 0.5 makes it really hard to last hit.

I think the biggest thing that forces him out of large fights (where ideally he should thrive) is the fact that he has only one answer to any focus fire against him-- use undying rage. And because of the nature of his ult, if it works then he wins everything and kills everyone, and if it doesn't then he falls flat on his face and loses, forcing him to split push all day.

I'd like if his mocking shout were replaced with a blocking type move with low downtime. Something he can use to survive on the edge of a fight without using his ultimate. If he has to use his ult as soon as he enters a fight he just dives the squishiest high priority targets he can, because thats the only way to optimize his 5 seconds of play time.

On the other hand, if he can enter a fight without diving carries and do some reasonable damage to the front line, he could be a lot healthier for the game. The block would have to be game changing enough to nullify the damage and cc that most backlines would put on him without being gamebreaking in a dive or a 1v1.

Maybe like a self rooting channeled ability (like meditate) that prevents Trynd from changing his facing, makes him immune to all damage and cc originating from in front of him, and immune to nothing from things originating from behind him. Give it a 2 second cooldown or something small.

JustMonika131 votes

How would you classify the Skirmisher Hybrids, said to be: Gangplank: Battle Mage hybrid Skirmisher Jayce: Artillery Mage hybrid Skirmisher and Graves: Marksman hybrid Skirmisher?

Critkeeper1 votes

Its hard to say because they don't fit entirely in the skirmisher space.

They seem like specialists though.

I'd say gangplank is more threat oriented and graves is more durability oriented.

Jayce is just weird.

DeathBurst1 votes

Hey, sorry for necro-posting but I stumbled on this thread from Randomonium's youtube video on Skirmishers, and I was wondering about Ekko.

He is officially classified as a Skirmisher by Riot, but I don't think he fits this mold, because he has a rather high Burst but a much lower DPS than all other champs in this category. If he can't kill you in one combo, he probably won't even try to fight. Sure, he can and will win a lot of 1v1 by kiting and dancing around you if you force him to fight, but if you refuse to fight, he won't chase you and tear you to shred like a Fiora or a Yasuo.

So, what makes Ekko a Skirmisher in your eyes more than a strange breed of Assassin/Diver?

Critkeeper2 votes

{quoted}

Hey, sorry for necro-posting but I stumbled on this thread from Randomonium's youtube video on Skirmishers, and I was wondering about Ekko.

He is officially classified as a Skirmisher by Riot, but I don't think he fits this mold, because he has a rather high Burst but a much lower DPS than all other champs in this category. If he can't kill you in one combo, he probably won't even try to fight. Sure, he can and will win a lot of 1v1 by kiting and dancing around you if you force him to fight, but if you refuse to fight, he won't chase you and tear you to shred like a Fiora or a Yasuo.

So, what makes Ekko a Skirmisher in your eyes more than a strange breed of Assassin/Diver?

Skirmishers aren't unique to having high DPS, there are mages and marksmen that also have high DPS.

Skirmishers are unique in that they have very powerful situational defenses that can't generally be counterplayed with "more damage"

Windwall, Mocking shout, Riposte, Alpha strike are "strong" skirmisher defenses because there are no ways to stop their effects, only ways to prevent them.

Yasuo shield, Tryndamere heal, Fiora ult heal and Yi meditate are "weak" skirmisher defenses because there are ways to stop or reduce the effects.

Undying rage is in a class of its own because it can neither be stopped nor prevented, making it probably the most powerful defensive ability in the game.

Plenty of champions have "weak" defensive effects, but very few have "strong" effects. Skirmishers are unusual in that they typically have both as their only form of protection (no static defenses unlike a few other champions that might have strong or weak defensive abilities), and they spend the rest of their entire power budget on killing power.

Usually that killing power doesn't need to be windowed by cooldowns because the practicality of skirmishers is already windowed by cooldowns-- the cooldowns of their weak and strong defensive abilities. That is why virtually all skirmishers can have such high DPS, verging on something you might even call "sustained burst"-- because they won't be able to utilize it for as many seconds in practice as a marksmen or sustained damage mage can (at least in the typical scenario)

Ekko's weak defense is his shield bubble, and his strong defense is his ultimate. The fact that ekko doesn't have great sustained damage or "absurd" sticking power doesn't mean he isn't a skirmisher, it just means that he doesn't spend virtually all of his remaining power budget on DPS unlike most other skirmishers. For instance, he spends quite a bit of his power budget on his fairly reliable stun, and a lot of it is spent on his ranged slow and poke.

Weak effects aren't all the same power level-- for instance, Fiora ult heal is far more powerful than yasuo shield. Strong effects aren't at the same power level either, for instance windwall is far more powerful than mocking shout.

These different skirmishers spend just as much power as they have to, and no more, on their defensive abilities. Different pairs of defensive abilities work better in the context of different kits, with the goal of making it so that they not only make the skirmisher practical, but do so efficiently. This efficiency is needed because if there is no power left over to put on threat or DPS then the skirmisher is just a champion who is hard to kill but for which there is no real reason to kill them because they don't "exert influence" or "pull aggro". This design doesn't work.

For instance, Yi wouldn't work if his meditate made him him immune to crowd control but his ultimate didn't make him immune to slows-- although he would be far more difficult to kill, he would be too impractical.

DeathBurst1 votes

(For the records, I'm not the one downvoting. I'm always for a good discussion, even when we don't share opinions...)

I disagree with your basic definition of Skirmisher. What defines Skirmisher is not their conditional defense. What defines Skirmisher is "strong, target agnostic, melee DPS". The conditional defense is what they need to function as melee DPS, it's a tool that their basic premise (almost) forces them to get, it's not why they exist, though. They don't get damage so that they can get a defense ability, it's the other way around: they get a defense ability because they need it to deal damage. You don't draft a Yasuo for his Windwall (or you would take Braum), you draft him for the damage he provides. In fact, I find a little mind boggling to say that the class with the most damage in the game rivaled only by Marksmen is defined by its defensive capabilities.

What defines a class, by the definition of "define", is a trait such that you can say "if a champ gets that trait, it's in that class". Anything else is simply a tool, not a defining characteristic, and plenty of Mages get strong conditional defenses (Cassio stun, Vlad pool, Swain CC + sustained heal on ult, etc.), so you clearly can't say that "any champ with a strong situational defense" is a Skirmisher. You can say, on the other hand, that any "strong, target agnostic, melee DPS" is a Skirmisher, though. Marksman and Battle Mages do have high DPS too, but they are not melee, and Battle Mages are not target agnostic and struggle versus Tanks.

So coming back to my original question, why do you call Ekko a skirmisher, I must admit: he fits your definition. I disagree with that definition, but your reasoning is sound, and I understand why you count him as a Skirmisher. I must confess, I'm still not convinced, but I do understand.

50000000000000001 votes

This is a nice post!

Neamean1 votes

Based on the points you made would you consider Akali a skirmisher? In my opinion she is and I feel she has that mobility/durability/threat factor too.

Ars3lyn1 votes

she wouldnt do to the fact that most of her ability gains the damage of "burst damage" and none of her ability are really defensive as you could think about, she her cloak and her passive are both easy to counter while yasuo windwall isnt. if you look at most of the champion that are skrimishers they have one ability besides their ult that has a long cdr, master yi meditate with 35 sec cd, fiora raposte being 24 second to 18 second long. yasuo windwall is 26 to 18 seconds. you get the idea.

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