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Redemption Is a balanced item

StoryDuck··56 votes·4,007 views

item 3107 This is a balanced item.

Okay, now take a moment to calm yourself before reading on.

Feel ready? Okay lets continue.

Quick and dirty version: It is cheap enough that supports can afford it, strong enough to make supports want it, visually impactful enough that supports feel empowered with it, and weak enough that solo-laners don't want it.

Redemption is stronger then the other support items I will not dispute that. However, it is still a balanced item. It is a support item that makes support feel strong and important. It has great visual impact. It has strong limitations for its cost. It does not outshine solo lane items. A lot of people are upset about Redemption claiming it is too powerful an item. This is not completely true, this item is not too powerful because if it was all roles in LOL would be building it. Mid laners, top laners, junglers (Ivern doesn't count he's special) would all be building it. Don't believe me? Why doesn't Mid-Lane Karma build it?

Does anyone remember when Frost Queen's Claim was first introduce to LOL? Every AP champion in the game was buying the item. It was a great item for supports and AP supports were huge during this time. Many supports did not like the item though (tank supports especially). This was an unbalanced item when it first came out. It was quite overloaded. It has since been balanced. Redemption has not had this issue, only supports are getting it. To crowd out all other support items yet not be desired by other roles in LOL is an amazing feat of balance. That means they made an item stronger then Frost Queen's Claim (at release) yet no solo-laner desired to use it.

The amazing feat of creating this item aside; Supports are having a greater and greater impact on LOL and Redemption is the latest item/buff to increase this impact (much to non-support main's dismay). It's stats are pretty subpar and only a support would desire them. The active is strong and maybe a bit crazy but keep in mind it has a 120 second CD tied to it. This item is currently crowding out other support items but this is a symptom of support itemization in general and not a problem of one item being too powerful. If it was too powerful Redemption would be in every role but it isn't. It is a limited item that only a support type champion could build we just need the other support items to be brought up to Redemption's level.

55 Comments

chipndip123 votes

Translation: Every support in the game having to build Redemption makes Redemption a balanced item.

I swear I'm tired of people treating support as a class and not a role. Support is a role filled by champions in different classes. It shouldn't be the case that almost every single one of them wants to rush Redemption. This item is broken in terms of support items. Stop making excuses.

StoryDuck28 votes

I would make the argument that AP support items are just too weak. I would argue that tank support items are lacking. That they need to be improved to the level of Redemption. Redemption shows us the kind of strength a support item can have when the item is designed well. Why not focus item 3050 as a better tank/AP support item instead of that weird armor/ap hybridization? Why not make item 3222 the shield/heal buffing item instead of a semi-tank item with 40 mr? Support itemization is so weird because every item has defensive stats and offensive/buffing stats mixed up with no focus. They could easily make these items more focus on their special bonuses for supports they are intended for and would thus improve their power for certain supports and bring them up to Redemption's level.

SnakDatSmilesBak18 votes

{quoted}

Support itemization is so weird because every item has defensive stats and offensive/buffing stats mixed up with no focus. They could easily make these items more focus on their special bonuses for supports they are intended for and would thus improve their power for certain supports and bring them up to Redemption's level.

This right here deserves its own thread.

StoryDuck11 votes

I know right? Support items are a mess right now, and yeah I think I will but that'll be a pretty big post.

Gosh Darn4 votes

Athene's is the biggest contradiction. Increasing the heal you give allies IF YOU CAN MANAGE TO DEAL ENOUGH DAMAGE. Okay that leaves... Lich Bane Sona as the only user of Athene's in it's current state.

Also the harmony passive is god awful. Giving %hp regen to the champions with the lowest base hp regen in the game. Great synergy right there...

chipndip16 votes

  1. I never thought I'd see the day where someone else besides me noticed the stupidity of the itemization in this role. Yeah, the stat allocation on these items is awkward beyond belief.

  2. If it was possible to convince the community or Riot to actually allow for AP to be on support items, we'd be cooking with gas. Thus, we'll never cook with gas. Get the dry ass sticks and leaves ready.

  3. Even if we made other items stronger, unless we made a few more items that are as potent and influential as Locket/Redemption, we'd STILL have to nerf the combo. I understand fully that some items are meant to be staple and others are meant to be filler. I understand and respect that notion fully. What I dislike is that every support's core is this combo unless they're cheesing it out or just not respecting it for whatever reason.

StoryDuck5 votes

It's all about focus. Redemption has all it's focus on one big activatable ability which is why it's so strong.

Imagine a Zeke Harbinger without the armor bonus and perhaps a lower base AP but it grants bonus AP equal to a % of the Binded allies' AD/AP. This would ultimately grant a much higher bonus of AP but only supports would be able to build it because it is so weak on its own. Then the bonus AD/AP from it would matter a lot more for the support making it an amazing AP support item. How cool would that be?

chipndip12 votes

Legitimately a grand idea. No bullshit.

Dessem10 votes

I would make the argument that AP support items are just too weak. I would argue that tank support items are lacking.

I'd completely agree. I like playing Taric and I still rush Redemption on him. Why?

It gives mana regen. It gives CDR. It gives flat health. It gives health regen. It amplifies my Q and W. It gives me an AoE heal/damage spell.

Teamfight-wise, I'd argue Locket of the Solari is plain better. That's a huge shield for your team. But when you're still laning, you don't want armour and MR. You want sustain that keeps you in lane, and Redemption provides that.

What other alternatives are there? item 3109 does nothing to solve Taric's mana issues, item 3504 gives AP Taric isn't interested in, item 3060 isn't a support item (and mid- to lategame focused anyway), item 3174 isn't a Taric item (doesn't do enough damage), item 3401 is also a valid rush item but you have mana issues, item 3190 only provides teamfight but no sustain, item 3222 is really niche.

It's not that item 3107 is too strong─it keeps Bard, Taric, Nami able to compete with Brand, Malzahar, Vel'Koz and their ilk; mage supports don't generally get support items, but their damage means in a fight they bring 1 carry to the table whereas enchanter supports make a carry more durable/one of the enemies less effective.

The issue is that none of the other items provide the in-lane sustain that Redemption does. No other support item gives mana regen + health. The other items suffer from poor appreciation, awkward build paths, strange passives and/or too much Active too little stats (Locket).

StoryDuck3 votes

I end up building item 3024 a lot of times with Taric, it's a great item on him and gives him every stat he likes. This is followed swiftly with a Redemption of course :) most games I never even upgrade it to a item 3110 or item 3025 but when I get the extra gold they are so good.

Dessem1 votes

It is, I tend to shove it in when I can. Some games I just get early kills so I aim to get that Redemption up asap even before a Sightstone, some games are slow and I wind up going Shroud and Sightstone early.

I still mourn that item 3504 gives AP (which in general does little for Taric), because in theory he could keep it going forever when he's wading in the thick of battle (and his mana holds out). :'(

DarkRitual2 votes

I rush Redemption on support Shen. Shield Boost? Check, He got two of those (passive and ult). Health and Health regen? Not bad. Cooldown Reduction? Awesome. Yet another large-range supportive active.

Mana regen? lol who cares.

FatedSaviour1 votes

i used to build item 3222 as sion support up until they removed the heal from it, i still use it sometimes now, and with healer supports i do find myself semi tanky, with my item 3174 item 3504 item 3107 item 3116 item 3050 item 3092 with me having to decide which one not to take in exchange for boots (not removing the fqc of course) and if i choose to play healer, i play nami, cuz, nami

Sp33d Zer05 votes

Is it that it's broken, or is it more likely that EVERY OTHER SUPPORT ITEM is shitty in comparison, so much so, that we had almost exclusively mage bot lanes for 2-3 seasons, barring a few situations of lulu, sona, and soraka being top tier.

Poske5 votes

He is actually right

Apart from Locket and redemption

Support items are weak

Wolfeur1 votes

Do you see a lot of Braums and Leonas rushing Redemption?

Zankren2 votes

{quoted}

Do you see a lot of Braums and Leonas rushing Redemption?

Yes actually

chipndip12 votes

Do you see them in the first place?

Wolfeur2 votes

Yes, usually I even see their portrait next to my abilities

chipndip11 votes

I'm glad you play them. I hardly ever see them. Especially Leona.

Oleandervine12 votes

Lethality was OP as hell, yet not all roles built it. Same goes for Iceborn Gauntlet and Sunfire Cape last season, as well as Rylai's before they nerfed it. An item doesn't have to be built by all lanes or all champions to be considered OP. Redemption has a bonkers effect - %HP damage to enemies and a massive AOE heal for allies, while at the same time amplifying itself and whatever heals and shields you may have. It is not only being built on champions who actually utilize all aspects on it, but champs who use it to sub-par potential (such as Morgana) or who can't even use parts of it at all (Zyra). When champions who don't effectively use an item start to pick up and use an item for the activated ability, there's a major problem with the item. Zyra and Morgana have no excuse, there are plenty of items they can utilize to maximize their kit potential without feeling the need to build Redemption.

StoryDuck8 votes

The reason other supports are not building other items is a problem with support itemization and not Redemption. Do you remember the time when item 3222 was built on every support? Was that item brokenly op? No it wasn't and other items were brought up to it's level allowing supports to shine more. Redemption isn't the problem it just shows how much better support items can be.

Dolasaur7 votes

When champions who don't effectively use an item start to pick up and use an item for the activated ability, there's a major problem with the item.

Is Sightstone a major problem? It's not like anyone says "ooh, 800 gold for 150 health, sounds slot and/or gold efficient without the active". And yet practically all support players feel the need to buy it. Whether or not a support champion specifically synergizes well with Sightstone's active, it still provides a huge baseline utility to your team. Redemption is certainly not identical to Sightstone overall, but it is for the aspects you mentioned.

Of course, there's the separate problem of feeling like you need to buy X specific items, because Riot believes that players should have a certain level of freedom and diversity in item builds. And if 100% of supports buy boots + sightstone + redemption + locket + <new item> + pink wards, then that's a choice problem. But Sightstone's more of an offender there than Redemption is.

Oleandervine1 votes

{quoted}

Is Sightstone a major problem? It's not like anyone says "ooh, 800 gold for 150 health, sounds slot and/or gold efficient without the active". And yet practically all support players feel the need to buy it. Whether or not a support champion specifically synergizes well with Sightstone's active, it still provides a huge baseline utility to your team. Redemption is certainly not identical to Sightstone overall, but it is for the aspects you mentioned.

Of course, there's the separate problem of feeling like you need to buy X specific items, because Riot believes that players should have a certain level of freedom and diversity in item builds. And if 100% of supports buy boots + sightstone + redemption + locket + <new item> + pink wards, then that's a choice problem. But Sightstone's more of an offender there than Redemption is.

Every champion in the game uses health and vision. Every. single. one. Arguing that Sightstone is not useful or being utilized to it's potential is just not true, because there's absolutely no way to squander health or vision unless you feed or don't place wards. This argument is made further irrelevant by the fact that you can either turn Sightstone into item 2301 item 2302 or item 2303 depending on your starting income item, or you could turn it into item 2045 and benefit from the pairing of item 3092 item 3401 oritem 3069, and that's not including a host of other items with actives that could be reduced via the Ruby Sightstone. Sightstone is versatile, because it offers you many different build paths and no aspect of the item goes to waste on any champion. Meanwhile, if you buy item 3107 and can't utilize the heal/shield buff, that's wasted stats. So comparing Redemption to Sightstone is a pretty tough sell, considering one is considerably more universally useful and incredibly versatile on more champions than the other, which was intended to be a niche item.

mrgiraffeweevil3 votes

It's not that redemption is too strong, it's that other support items are too weak. I know that's what everyone in this discussion is saying, but it's the truth. item 3109 is only ok on tank supports, item 3050 is just not strong right now, and mikaels, chalice, and ardent scepter are too weak. Locket and redemption are the only good support items right now.

Dolasaur1 votes

Every champion in the game uses health and vision. Every. single. one.

and

Sightstone is versatile, because it offers you many different build paths and **no aspect of the item goes to waste on any champion. **

You said buying an item just for its active was bad. Don't see how the vision part is relevant, since that exclusively sits on the active.

Lucian has AP scalings. I would argue Rabadon's Deathcap stats are still a waste on him. Just because Soraka and Janna and Vel'Koz have health does not mean that spending gold on health is efficient.

This argument is made further irrelevant by the fact that you can either turn Sightstone into <combined items> depending on your starting income item, or you could turn it into <RSS>

I'm not sure I follow your intent here. Would you be happy if you could combine Redemption with Frostfang/etc.? That wouldn't solve the issue of paying for heal/shield strength that you're not using, and it would only exacerbate the issue of it feeling mandatory (since you'd have one fewer excuse to not buy it).

Stalinium1 votes

Hybrid Lucian on URF is probably one of the most bullshit things in existence. I highly recommend it. But otherwise yeah

Fawksea2 votes

{quoted}

Lethality was OP as hell, yet not all roles built it. Same goes for Iceborn Gauntlet and Sunfire Cape last season, as well as Rylai's before they nerfed it. An item doesn't have to be built by all lanes or all champions to be considered OP. Redemption has a bonkers effect - %HP damage to enemies and a massive AOE heal for allies, while at the same time amplifying itself and whatever heals and shields you may have. It is not only being built on champions who actually utilize all aspects on it, but champs who use it to sub-par potential (such as Morgana) or who can't even use parts of it at all (Zyra). When champions who don't effectively use an item start to pick up and use an item for the activated ability, there's a major problem with the item. Zyra and Morgana have no excuse, there are plenty of items they can utilize to maximize their kit potential without feeling the need to build Redemption.

yea not all roles built lethality, those supports should've abused it more like the rest of their team :\\\\
srsly tho you would see teams of gangplank/garen top quinn jungle yasuo/zed/talon mid and jhin/mf/cait/lucian bot all with lethality

Jbels5 votes

Increase the cost by 300, and it will be balanced.

StoryDuck5 votes

Why nerf Redemption? Why not reduce the cost of other support items instead?

jr deputy meow3 votes

the other items aren't too cheap.

StoryDuck3 votes

We should be bringing support items up to Redemption not bringing Redemption down to their level. Yeah, lowering gold cost on those items would probably not be the best idea. Other changes could be done.

Jbels4 votes

{quoted}

Why nerf Redemption? Why not reduce the cost of other support items instead?

It gives way too much for how cheap it is. An item that has near Xerath ult range, heals for so much, can be used while dead (something no other item gives) while also giving you percent healing amplification is not okay. Increase it's cost, or decrease it's range by half, or lower how much it heals for, or increase it's cooldown, or remove the ability to use it while dead. Do any one of these things to Redemption, and it will be balanced.

StoryDuck5 votes

Why nerf when you can buff the other support items? Gold is perhaps a bad metric but the fact is support itemization is really bad. We need to focus on bringing other support items up to Redemption's level not dragging Redemption down to their level. Redemption is basically a 2100 gold activatable ability that is super strong but it still has a 120 second CD. It really isn't that over powered. Sure it seems super strong but lets face it, supports don't have many opportunities to look strong. This item lets them do that and we need more items that do that for supports.

Sp33d Zer03 votes

I am fine with supports being able to actually SHOW an active impact in a team fight. Let them keep redemption. In fact, make more items LIKE redemption so that support feels more rewarding to play.

Redemption seems OP because it is always rushed because it is one of, if not the strongest support items. But look at how weak it's competition is.

TheJakeinator4 votes

every other lane isn't building it therefore it is balanced

Top kek

StoryDuck9 votes

Yes actually, make fun (and make up lines that are not in my post) all you want but the fact is support itemization should be brought up to redemption's level and not to nerf/remove Redemption. If you truly want supports to be improved you would want better support items and not the removal of power from any support item that hints at being strong. If all you want is the removal of redemption then what you really dislike is supports getting stronger. You just want them to feel weak.

lmakehersquirtle4 votes

I agree it is an amazing item that makes being a support actually feel impactful in the game. But the cost of the item is a bit on the low side for how much it can impact the game.

SnakDatSmilesBak2 votes

If anything I think riot could hit the range a tad. I don't see why it needs such a long range as well as such a powerful ability. But I agree with you that it is balanced for now imo.

StoryDuck6 votes

That active is a beast. I feel a 120 second CD help with that and the rest of the stats are very weak. It's pretty much just an activatable ability for 2100 gold.

Cosmic Warper2 votes

I think redemption is better balanced than locket actually. That locket burst shield is insanely strong. I've seen numbers of up to 10k damage mitigated by a support's locket alone in a game...

StoryDuck3 votes

The two items are a powerful combo, seeing such good item synergy is pretty cool. Now if they could only take that damage mitigated stat from Locket and put it on the end screen.

Cosmic Warper1 votes

{quoted}

The two items are a powerful combo, seeing such good item synergy is pretty cool. Now if they could only take that damage mitigated stat from Locket and put it on the end screen.

I don't think it's pretty cool. I think it's oppressive. A burst shield and then a burst heal FOR THE WHOLE TEAM right after if they're cast at similar times...

Supreme Senpai692 votes

I love having the ability to heal on supports that don't have it. It lets me take things into the role that otherwise wouldn't work.

Salson2 votes

Nerf the active base heal > give double active scaling for %heal/shield. Only for pure enchanters with windspeakers and item 3504 . Rework item 3056 for tanky supps.

Earl Eulrich2 votes

If you see an item bought on a Champ that clearly doesn´t synergize at all it certainly isn´t balanced.

Right now it´s a must buy on any support, even a Zyra or Brand just for the ridiculous active - also degrading the actual champion as he´s now mostly a ward and redemption/locket bot and nothing more once laning ends.

SilentBomber2 votes

Hi.Support is my secondary role and play lots of Tahm,Blitz,Thresh and rarely Leona or Alistar.Against mage supports it makes sense when you rush redemption to shut them down early while providing your adc with heal instead of just defending him.

Let's Face it.I'm gold 4 and from all support mages i've seen like Zyra or Brand,only a ridiculously small number actually bought redemption.Most tank or utility supports from the other hand rush redemption for greater sustain in Team fights.Thus,it would be our first option to let's say "counter" Zyra's damage mid game.

KoKoboto1 votes

I agree, I think locket is balanced as well.

SweedishGunner1 votes

I was waiting for the Kappa.

KoggyStyle1 votes

build it on alot of champs on aram, shits op as fk and ppl call me a support for grabing a healing item that grants vision oh and it deals damage and can be used while your dead, then tell me how they want me to use it.... buy your own and use it your way.

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