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[Theorycraft] Garen skill order

DeathBurst··9 votes·1,851 views

Heya guys,

The FOLLOW-UP post on dev corner yesterday has awaken my Garen love, and I've been theorycrafting a lot today.

Soooo... Before the rework, maxing E first was optimal (I think, hard to find data about it), because it was the main source of damage.

After the rework, according to league of graphs, ~40% of people (myself included) still max E by level 9, with some slight variations during the first few levels.

But now, E damage increases naturally with levels, due to the total number of ticks increasing every 3 levels, so you don't need to rank the spell as much as before. And I'm thinking that actually ranking E and Q in parallel may be a good idea. I've crunched a lot of numbers, so I can give more details if you want, but the gist of it is: if you rank E and Q in parallel, the higher damage from Q roughly compensate the lower damage of E, even if all E ticks hit the target, for a trade inside a minion wave, and for a trade without minions around (so with the 33% bonus damage on E), it's only slightly worse.

So by ranking E and Q in parallel, you DON'T LOSE MUCH damage, AND you gain the longer MS buff earlier, which helps you apply all your E ticks.

I tried ranking Q first completely, but you lose a bit more damage when you do that. After tinkering a bit in LibreOffice, I think the optimal order is ranking Q at levels 1-4-8-10-12 and E for the other levels (plus an early point in W and R ASAP, of course).

So, what d'y'all think about that?

EDIT: slight corrections since I found an error in my spreadsheet.

42 Comments

redniwediS2 votes

I've moved on to maxing Q first. E is still quite good, and even superior at rank 4 and 5, but Q offers a whole lot more in those very early levels. Getting two or three ranks of Q right off the bat can really help with trading, and the increased duration on the movement speed boost is something I'll find hard to give up if I ever try to switch back.

I will get a level of E at level 2, and max it second, but the utility and reliable damage of Q is something I've really grown to love having in that first stage of the game.

DeathBurst1 votes

It's to benefit from the increased duration on MS buff that I considered changing my skill order, too. That being said, maxing Q first is inferior in terms of raw potential damage, E still deals more.

redniwediS1 votes

It's only inferior after a few ranks, and even then until you get items it's inferior in any normal lane situation due to his lowered damage against multiple targets.

It's all a question of whether reliable damage or higher potential damage is best for the given situation. We're all supposed to adapt to the situation instead of getting used to a pattern, even if that's not what any of us do.

DeathBurst1 votes

No, I did take into account the damage reduction against multiple target ;) E is more damage even in the middle of a minion wave. What Q provides is more burst/reliability because you just need one basic attack as opposed to sticking to the enemy for 3s, but it's always inferior in terms of damage if you do manage to stick for 3s.

More precisely, total Q+E damage is always inferior when maxing Q first to maxing E first, assuming you apply the full E.

MetalGearTeemu3 votes

You Max E first because in most trades you do not lead with Q. the way Garen bullies best is by forcing them to commit to a bad trade or retreat with just E. If they decide to tank E, they eat Grasp - autoattack -> Q afterward before you ever get creep aggro.

Starting with Q on aggressive plays unless you are 100% clear of the minion wave is inefficient.

Because of this, Loading points in Q means you're not going to see the value nearly as often in a close lane as you would E's extra damage. It also commits your escaping skill far earlier in the trade. leaving you less window to pull out if the jungler comes at you from an unexpected angle.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

ModWulf Helhammer1 votes

People seriously max E first? Why?

Shahamut1 votes

Better dps. Thats it.

DeathBurst2 votes

It's more damage overall than Q, you lose 20 to 100 damage on a full rotation if you max Q first instead of E.

Spaceman5pff1 votes

TBH I only play Nitro Circus Garen Garen summoner 4 summoner 6 item 3142 item 3009 item 3742 item 3068 (gotta have sunfire bc nitro circus aint nitro circus without fire)

The sheer efficiency and speed with which one can spread the light of Demacia is simply unparalleled.

Chatillon1 votes

Dude, your build is sub-par

item 3094 item 3078 item 3031 item 3142 item 3009 item 3742

Justice will always strike

It's reach cannot be contained

DeathBurst1 votes

All of these builds are risky as hell and not really useful in a proper team. I mean, sure, if you go mid yourself, or if you have a cho'gath mid/amumu jungle and your team need more raw damage, ok, why not. But if you want raw damages, there are better picks than Garen. And in a more classical team comp, Garen's job is not to burst squishies...

So sure, these builds are fun for normal, but here we're talking about theorycrafting optimal builds for competitive.

Chatillon1 votes

the the only reason I am on the boards is for Memes & Games, so it has a tendency to leak over

https://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/43466082.jpg

DeathBurst1 votes

No worries ;)

Spaceman5pff1 votes

Your serious thread has been visited by the memes and games page, namely memes

QjTHqo3RTq2 votes

item 3031 item 3087 item 3078 item 3742 item 3147 item 3142

Thank me later

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

item 3031 item 3087 item 3078 item 3742 item 3147 item 3142

Thank me later

thats the spirit!

Spaceman5pff1 votes

Garen item 3069 item 3800 item 3142 item 3094 item 3009 item 3068 summoner 12 summoner 6

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Garen item 3069 item 3800 item 3142 item 3094 item 3009 item 3068 summoner 12 summoner 6

sunfire cape instead of dead mans plate? y u so slow?

Spaceman5pff1 votes

BC this all began with Nitro Circus Garen, and Nitro Circus is all about SPEED, and FIRE. But I take TP over ignite so i can bring my fire to more places. (only countered by firefighter tristana and officer vi to catch me for speeding and arsen

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

BC this all began with Nitro Circus Garen, and Nitro Circus is all about SPEED, and FIRE. But I take TP over ignite so i can bring my fire to more places. (only countered by firefighter tristana and officer vi to catch me for speeding and arsen

alright. i can respect that.

DeathBurst1 votes

Honestly, if we're really going for fun builds, try Death's Dance instead of Triforce. The pseudo-lifesteal on E is amazing.

And anyway, Triforce is a subpar item for Garen, Cleaver is much better, the only thing Triforce has better than Cleaver is a bit more burst, but even in a fun build, I'm not sure it's worth it.

QjTHqo3RTq1 votes

Death's Dance 33% reduction on aoe makes e lifesteal super meak, trust me ive tried. This also a one shot garen build, the triforce is there to add more crit and a sheen effect

Sire Hippington1 votes

i usually get 2-3 points in Q early and then max out E. Post level 7, E has enough ticks and garen enough ad that points into E get an noticeable effect, epecially in terms of waveclear, and at level 10, another aditional tick combined with maxed out E and usually an completed cleaver contributes to a massive powerspike. And yes, in some matchups i DO put an early second or even third point into W, the higher duration and lower cd on that powerfull damage reduction can help alot at staying save early on in harsh matchups till you reach your major powerspikes that allow you to fight back, and it's very usefull for midgame teamfights.

DeathBurst1 votes

hmm, I do not rush Cleaver on Garen, usually build it as 3rd or 4th item. Only versus a few exceptions such as Nasus or Malphite, I start Cleaver, but it's not the norm.

Regarding skill order, if I recap, it's something like that? Q-E-Q-W-Q-R -> max E at level 10

Sire Hippington1 votes

thats about my skill order, and for BC, i usually pick up defensive boots depending on the matchup and in hard lanes usually pick up either sunfire or SV first, But BC usually always as first or second big item. You have to be a bit more carefull as your not super tanky with it, but the overall damage and utillity it offers is imo worth it.

Quepha1 votes

Assuming you build Zero bonus AD, you get more damage out of a point in E than a point in Q starting at level 4 when you increase your tick count from 5 to 6.

This also assumes you don't isolate targets for the 33% bonus damage which would further widen the gap.

You should max E.

DeathBurst1 votes

Damage isn't everything, the longer MS buff is quite noticeable and interesting.

By ranking the 2 skills in parallel, the loss of damage is minimal, and the added utility worth it, I think. I'm open to debate, of course, that's why I created this thread, but you make the issue sound much more simpler than it actually is.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

Damage isn't everything, the longer MS buff is quite noticeable and interesting.

By ranking the 2 skills in parallel, the loss of damage is minimal, and the added utility worth it, I think. I'm open to debate, of course, that's why I created this thread, but you make the issue sound much more simpler than it actually is.

As a juggernaut, damage kind of IS everything. Plus it's your waveclear. In matchups where you'd need that extra MS boost to catch up to the target I think just sitting and clearing waves is the better option, and in matchups where you don't then obviously damage is better.

KillerKell1 votes

Here's what I want to know...

am I doing Level 1 wrong?

I start out with W and Level 1, so I can instantly start stacking Armor and MR (and have the one where Siege Minions give me more Max HP, so I stack that as well).

The reasoning is I feel I gain strength from the very first Minion over my Lane Opponent by stacking 'free' Stats. Then I can hit 2, and decided if a big hit with silence of a spin is what is needed. If he's been drawing Creep Damage maybe I Q and go in on him, if he's passive maybe I E and push Wave (gaining more Armor/MR) then all in at 3 if it's there.

What do you guys do at Level 1... and why?

Also, Item Build.

I don't start with Doran's Shield. Don't get me wrong, it's awesome. But I start with a Ruby Crystal, leaving me only 700 Gold short of Bami's Cinder, as I rush it, then go The Black Cleaver, then likely finish my Sunfire and boots.

I like knowing I can back early and come back with sustained damages on Cinder, helping me push wave (and stack more Armor/MR).

So I know usually you'd go Doran's Shield, and I know some rush TBC instead of a Defensive Item. I like it, it feels right and makes me hard to dive... but exactly how wrong am I doing this?

He's turning into one of my better Champs, by the numbers... I'm just hoping my ideas of him aren't overly hurting my potential with him.

KillerKell1 votes

Adding my Season 6 Garen Stats.

11-9 (55%). 7.6/4.7/8.3, 3.36:1 KDA 185.1 CS per Game, 13,806 Gold per Game 1.60 Turrets per Game, 16 Max Kills, 10 Max Deaths. 151,659 Average Damage Taken, 34,983 Average Damage Dealt 15 Double Kills, 1 Triple Kills, 0 Quadra Kills, 0 Penta Kills.

http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=KillerKell

DeathBurst3 votes

For the records, I'm 86-60 (59%) in S6, but only at silver ELO, so take it for what it is. Playstyle may vary between different person, but here is how I see it:

  • Regarding W level 1: I don't think the added stats are worth the lost pressure. The basic attack reset on Q is a huge factor for early trades, and I often trade before level 3 (E and Q are more important than W, so you can't trade before level 3 if you start W). I usually take W level 3, which means I'm at 15-20 CS when I first rank W. You need 120 CS to max stack your W, so without the initial 20 before ranking the spell, it's 140. I always reach that number before late game anyway. So if I recap: not good for lane, and not necessary for late game, so a bad idea overall.

  • starter: I never take a doran item, I always prefer to invest on the long term and speed-up my big items. Usually cloth+4 pot or ruby+2 pot, very rarely long sword + 3 pot (see next point)

  • items: since the buff of sunfire against minions, I usually rush sunfire, not just bami, if I can get away with it. Against hard AP match-up, I rush bami+specter's cowl. I usually go for Sunfire -> Spirit -> ZZ'rot if I want to splitpush/Cleaver if I want to fight. Against very specific match-ups, I'll rush a completely different item: Cleaver against Nasus/Malphite, Thornmail against Trynda/Yasuo. After Boots and the items already mentioned, I go full tank 95% of the time, the last 5% being Death's Dance or Youmuu's if I'm really ahead and I'm the only one in my team.

KillerKell1 votes

Thanks for the info, man. I'll have to look into starting Q when I get back to playing.

Now... I start Ruby Crystal, so that 700 Gold gets me Bami. I try to have 1K before I back, so I can Bami and Boots. Then I feel save from dives, and also able to stick when I E onto a Champion (usually before they have boots), and also more able to walk out of ganks and back to Turret.

You say Cloth, or perhaps Long Sword... with my reasoning how do you feel with Ruby + Pots? I do think I'll start finishing it before starting TBC, but TBC takes so long, I sort of like to get it started in a way.

I'm a Full Tank kind of guy as well, unless we're stomping and I'm having fun, then I've added a Shiv and Hydra, AoE stuff. But that's just when we are clearly winning for fun.

DeathBurst1 votes

I said that I also start ruby sometimes. Usually armor + 4 pots, because since I want the full Sunfire anyway, it's not wasted, but ruby is also good against some AP match-ups, when you want to rush bami but go for Spirit before completing Sunfire.

Problem with Ruby is it's more expansive, so you've only 2 pots, and most AP are also ranged and can harass you, so starting with less pots is not cool. Even if the cloth armor is useless (and it's never COMPLETELY useless, champs have basic attacks, and there are minions), 1 pot gives as many HP as 1 ruby (150), so starting 4 pots is better than ruby+2 pots.

Long-sword start is very rare, only when I want to rush Cleaver.

KillerKell1 votes

Sweet, thanks.

So you'd suggest I start Q and Cloth or Ruby (situational), in general?

Just making sure I got this so I can put it into effect. :P

DeathBurst1 votes

That's what I meant, yes.

Spoofghoul1 votes

item 3147 is very good on garen q then spin then ult and you are garenteed a kill

Chatillon3 votes

Im silver elo as well,

But i feel that garen is so strong early that i like to push the advantage

It's not a matter of free stats, i can stack that later, but I like his power in lvl 2 and 1

DREADN0UGHT1 votes

im no Garen master, but the way I usually do him is:

Max Q if you are laning vs a caster enemy likeRiven Maokai Pantheon Mordekaiser Max E if you are laning vs a strong pusher like Darius Graves Nasus

I'm a big fan of the Silence doe. And I start with Q 99% of the games I play Garen.

AlwaysByMySide2 votes

{quoted}

im no Garen master, but the way I usually do him is:

Max Q if you are laning vs a caster enemy likeRiven Maokai Pantheon Mordekaiser Max E if you are laning vs a strong pusher like Darius Graves Nasus

I'm a big fan of the Silence doe. And I start with Q 99% of the games I play Garen.

You are aware that maxing Q neither lowers its cooldown nor increases the duration of the silence, right?

Critmaster Garen1 votes

what dev post are you referring to?

edit.: found it.

i remember back when garen had this w passive for the first time and gained .5 armor/mr per minion, before his rework at the end of season 2 where they changed it to a % resistance bonus, there were actually matchups when i took w at lvl 1 to get a few more resistance points before starting to trade with my opponent at lvl 2 and lvl 3.

plus, it could get you the upper hand in level 1 auto attack trades.

with the new way his spin scales, i find myself usually maxing the spin first, but going q, then w for the first 2 points.

right now its not really a good idea to seriously start trading with anyone before level 4 where you get an extra spin tick and racked up a few resistance points on the w.

i actually used to max my q over the spin a lot more pre rework since the longer silence duration was just so good against certain opponents. riven and darius being a very good example, as you could go in for an auto attack + q + auto attack trade and get out of range before the silence ran out on them.

since the silence doesnt scale anymore, the only thing youre getting out of ranking it up is more mobility. this can rarely be useful and worth maxing q over the spin. but usually you get more out of maxing e. in waveclear and damage.

DeathBurst1 votes

It's strange how there is no consensus about Q or E, there has been people with strong opinions in the 2 directions until now. And a few of them mentioned taking a few early points in W, but no one actually said to max it, and yet it's the top answer in the poll... I suspect memes and games x)

TotalJerk1 votes

{quoted}

Before the rework, maxing E first was optimal (I think, hard to find data about it), because it was the main source of damage.

Not necessarily true. It depended on the matchup. Q's silence used to scale with rank and W gave tenacity.

  • If you wanted to shut down their ability to cast for as long as possible you maxed Q
  • If you needed to trade against targets with lengthy rotations or DPS, you maxed W
  • E max was when you could bully them just fine and simply just want more damage

Now all maxing Q is good for is when you need extended speed boosts to reach targets, but you're generally better off just going for a Deadman's plate and Swifties if kiting is becoming a serious problem for you.

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