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@Meddler: We need to talk about Resolve Masteries BEFORE the end of Preseason.

DeathBurst··60 votes·2,630 views
Road to Pre-Season: Mastery Updates

TL;DR: overall, the Resolve Tree is a complete mess and doesn't follow the general framework of the other Trees (highlighted in the recent Preseason article). This leads to solved and boring choices at multiple Tiers. Why wasn't it changed at the same time as the other Trees? And more importantly, can we hope for some changes before the start of Season 7?

Long version:

Yo o/

The "Road to preseason: Masteries" article was great, and I totally agree with the philosophy highlighted in the intro:

From: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/features/road-pre-season-mastery-updates

"Before we begin, it’s worth mentioning that mastery trees share a general framework. As you progress down a tree, masteries become more targeted toward individual playstyles, both in terms of the benefits they grant and the requirements to access those benefits. Earlier masteries are often also geared toward laning phase or jungle clearing, whereas later masteries scale better with game time."

The modifications to the Ferocity Tree in particular are perfectly aligned with all that and feel like a great change.

But the Resolve Tree, on the other hand, doesn't respect this framework at all!!

Tiers 1: Flat HP Regen (Recovery) or Scaling Armor/MR (Unyielding). Tiers 3: Scaling Heal/Shield (Runic Armor) or Flat HP (Veteran's Scar).

Veteran's Scar and Recovery are both "earlier masteries geared toward laning phase or jungle clearing", and are utterly useless comes late game for tanky champs. They are much better for squishies than for frontliners, even if barely noticeable later. On the other hand, Unyielding scales with the items that Tanks (and to a lesser extent Fighters) typically want to buy, and is only effective in late game, it "scales better with game time" and is "more targeted toward an individual playstyle, both in terms of the benefits it grants and the requirements to access those benefits", i.e. you really need to buy those items to actually benefit from the Mastery. Runic Armor is more effective than Unyielding early, but also scales pretty well into late game and doesn't fall off like Veteran's Scar/Recovery, the main problem being that the usefulness of the Mastery is mostly decided by your champion's kit (like the soon-to-be retired Oppressor).

Tiers 4: Perseverance: +50% Base HP Regen (+200% when below 25% MaxHP)

This is a boring passive stat increase, and is mostly useful during laning phase. It's really not deserving a spot as a Tiers 4. It's also redundant with Recovery, even if it scales a bit better ('cause it's a % amp of Base Regen instead of being a Flat amount).

I know it's better for Players to describe their problems and let you do your job than to try and propose their own solutions, so I'll keep it short, but I would do a few things along those lines:

  • Tiers 1: Perseverance versus Veteran's Scar (sustain versus all-in, one scales a bit better into late game, but both are mostly useful for laning)
  • Tiers 3: Unyielding versus Fearless (general durability versus window of defense, maybe different timing of best effectiveness if you play with the different mode of scaling)
  • Swap Dangerous Game with Summoner's Insight (Summoners CD is a better fit into Cunning)
  • Tiers 4: Runic Armor versus Dangerous Game (do I have my own sources of sustain or do I need a refill after the first few kills?)
  • Recovery removed entirely, and there is a slot open at Tiers 4. For something ramping up over time, for instance?

33 Comments

Swiftstrike413 votes

The resolve tree is still weak. I play Nasus and the resolve tree DOES help me a lot when getting through laning.

However, none of the other masteries in that tree help much in comparison to the other trees. The only reason I run in the resolve tree is for perseverance, swiftness, and runic armor. All three masteries synergize well with Nasus, but all the keystones are not good on him in that tree with grasp just being OK on him.

Why is unyielding's percentage so low? I think it should be a minimum of 10% and if they wanted to move it deeper in the tree I would be OK with that.

DeathBurst13 votes

Well, you answered your own question ^^ Unyielding is so low because it's a T1 mastery, and that's not consistent with the rest of the mastery system. I mean, that's kinda the gist of my OP x)

On the other hand, whether the tree is weak or not, isn't exactly relevant here. Power level can be adjusted in regular patches all along the year. Structural, systemic changes need to be addressed NOW.

kile1471 votes

For keystones on Nasus grasp is good for laning phase, but Stormraiders is the best on him overall as it makes him nearly impossible to kite if he procs it. That also allows you to get the 5% extra CDR, which is great on him too.

FantasySniper6 votes

Swapping Dangerous Game with Summoner's Insight actually makes a lot of sense.

I'll just splurge my list of ideas:

Recovery: +1 base Hp5 and +50 health.

  • Base Hp5 will scale better for tanks than anyone else, and the extra health from Scars has been moved there. Persistence: After landing a basic attack, receive +10 MS that decays over the next 3 seconds.
  • Nothing really says “Resolve” like a much-needed chasing mechanic. Windbreaker: Nearby ally champions take 2 less damage from all attacks. For every instance of this blockage, you take 1 damage. (This effect does not occur if you are below 5% maximum health.)
  • Alternative to Tough Skin for supports, and is a miniature Bond of Stone. Bladed Armor: All basic attacks on you deal 3 (+0.5% of your missing health) in magic damage to your attacker.
  • The missing health scaling lets it scale into the late-game, especially for tanks. Shroud of the Soul: Grants 0.8 - 16 (+5% AR) (+5% MR) shielding per second for a maximum shielding of 12 - 240 (+75% AR) (+75% MR) at 15 seconds. V.2: Bonus Armor and MR is also added as bonus Health at twice (2 times) their value.
  • Honestly, Strength of the Ages is a terrible concept. It only works out for Junglers, and even though you could make it work for laners, there’s still little reason to pick it over Grasp of the Undying (especially if you’re stacking health). This instead rewards resistance-stackers by giving them health to scale off of.
DeathBurst1 votes

A few interesting points.

What Tiers do you envision this different masteries? Because good ideas are still good in isolation, but great ideas also provide interesting choices with the competing masteries at the same Tiers.

  • Particularly, Bladed Armor is nice, but at what Tiers? What does it have to compete with? And is this an interesting choice?
  • I especially like Persistence, but I fear that it's too good for a lot of Juggernauts whose intended weakness is kiting. Giving them a mini-phage from minute 1 may be risky, and Tiers 2 still feel like the best fit.
  • Windbreaker is just that: a mini BoS. I don't like that, why have 2 times the same effect at 2 so different Tiers?
  • Shroud of the Sould, I'm sorry but I just don't understand what you mean. What triggers the shielding? How long is it supposed to stay/how does it refresh? And again, what Tiers, Keystone to replace SotA? (It's unlikely that Colossus will be changed now, but this is an interesting idea.)
FantasySniper1 votes

I planned Recovery is T1, Persistence T2, Windbreaker T2, Bladed Armor T3, Shroud is a Keystone. (Although it could be down-scaled to a different tier.) I also had ideas for slight boosts to the rest of the Resolve tree, like Unyielding being buffed to 7.5% - for reference of power.

  • I replaced Scars with Bladed Armor so that there can be a competing mastery for Runic Armor (which has been left unchanged). I did this particularly to give tanks an auto-trading mechanic that counteracts ranged dominance, help to fill the void that Thornmail occupy before it was gutted, and answer Merciless and other health-dependent damage bonuses.
  • I intend for Persistence to be used by attack speed bruisers or simply tanks that need some speed to complement moderate levels of CC. Juggernauts fall into neither category, so they benefit less overall.
  • It's supposed to be the selfless option for any support. Even if they don't opt fully into the Resolve tree for Bond of Stone, they can still reduce their whole team's damage intake by a small amount - since what sets it apart from Bond is that isn't just "the nearest", it's everyone who's near you.
  • The shield would be constantly generating until it hit the cap at 15 seconds. I thought about numbers and scenarios forever trying to make a reasonably powered version, and came to the conclusion that making it only generate outside of combat would make counterplay in lane too easy, forcing the shield to be inordinately large or the generation delay inordinately small to compensate. One of the chief concerns for tanks is that if they can't heal damage, they can't tank more in a fight. Health regen is the independent solution to this, but resistance stackers usually can't build it outside of Zz'Rot and a Spirit Visage upgrade, contrasting with health stackers who have access to a Warmog's/Visage combo and possibly even Titanic Hydra. Thus, I had the idea to instead make the Shroud constantly generate, giving it power levers both in and out of combat based on how fast it generates, and the cap at which it stops. Since it's so exceedingly complicated - and therefore very likely to be a victim of poor balancing - I came up with the second version that incorporated the concept of rewarding resistance stackers into a much simpler model.
DeathBurst1 votes

Thanks for the answer.

I intend for Persistence to be used by attack speed bruisers or simply tanks that need some speed to complement moderate levels of CC. Juggernauts fall into neither category, so they benefit less overall.

Hum, did I miss something? You only said "bonus MS after a basic attack". Nothing is specific to Juggernauts or Tanks there? ô-o

FantasySniper1 votes

The on-hit nature makes it naturally scale with opportunity to auto-attack. Juggernauts have less opportunity for auto-attacks than those who build attack speed or have stronger CC. Darius and Garen attack significantly less (beyond auto-resets) during a chase than Jax, Poppy, or Nautilus. Hence they benefit less from it.

DeathBurst1 votes

Darius attacks just as much as Poppy or Nautilus. Garen a bit less due to his spin, but still regularly. Nasus or Olaf or Volibear or Trundle attack a lot more. And if you have strong CC, you have more opportunity to attack, but you don't need MS while they are CC.

FantasySniper1 votes

As you said, from minimum cc, moderate cc, to maximum cc, the opportunity to attack rises. The benefits from MS bonuses supposedly has an inverse relationship because the opponent is moving less, ergo less need for yourself to move. This would mean that the optimum use for such an on-hit MS bonus would be before maximum CC levels where they have increased opportunities of attack.

The thing is that "cc" includes both hard CC or soft CC in this case, which is why I used Nautilus as an example. He has 2 stuns and a snare, but they are all either brief or relatively infrequent. He also has a moderate (decaying) slow on his [E]. Nautilus' [W] works in his kit - as a tank of all things - purely because he has maximum opportunity to attack. Also compare Rammus who scales his AD through armor and has moderate CC.

Both use their [Q], fit in some autos regardless of their personal speed, then use their [E] when they commence the chase. Poppy uses her [Q], fits in one or two autos, and uses [W] to prevent dashes and commence the chase. Darius will pull someone, auto, auto-reset with [W], and likely get another auto regardless of his personal speed. Then he uses his [Q] while commencing the chase. Notice that Darius and Rammus don't really need speed for his combo, since their opponent is stuck regardless during any time they auto-attack, but the rest use their autos to chase during times when the enemy is only moderately slowed. These nuances in their kits make the benefits from Persistence different.

You might say that Darius uses Black Cleaver for the Phage bonus, but that's not why he picks it up at all. He uses it for the armour reduction passive, because otherwise we would've seen Trinity Force on him at some point in time. I'm not saying that the MS bonus isn't nice on Darius or all Juggernauts, I'm saying that they benefit less from it overall. They're unlikely to become a problem when tanks are benefiting more.

I'm actually surprised you haven't mentioned how ranged champions might abuse it, though, since that's what we should be concerned about...

DeathBurst1 votes

It's rather easy to limit a Mastery for Ranged Champ, that's not concerning. Grasp and Warlord are already different for ranged vs melee. The trick here is that Ranged or Melee is quite binary and unambiguous.

Differentiating Tanks versus Juggernauts is a LOT harder. And saying that Jugg's will benefit "less" compared to Tanks is not reassuring. The important question is, can they mitigate too much of their weaknesses with that Mastery, independently of how well Tanks can use it.

Again, I repeat the first thing I said: I really like the idea, and I'd be glad to have such a Mastery. But I'm still worried. Extreme synergies are usually a bad thing, because it intertwines too much the balance of two different things that should remain separate. See Akali and Gunblade, old Vlad and Spellvamp, Irelia or Jax and old Triforce when it still had AP, etc.

FantasySniper1 votes

Yeah, well, theory-crafting can only get us so far. I don't see the synergy, but then again I can only give my argument based on what I know at the moment, after all.

NineTailedMystic3 votes

Dangerous Game is in cunning because the squishies are playing "The Dangerous Game ". Tank and other champions that would dip far enough for a T4 Mastery? Not so much.

DeathBurst1 votes

I think it Dangerous Game as in the "game" you hunt, not the "game" you play.

Bonipherus2 votes

Also note that explorer (tier 2 resolve mastery that adds +15 ms when in brush or river) is also an awkward fit in the resolve tree and is likely better suited in the cunning tree.

DeathBurst1 votes

I think the intention here is to offer Tanks (and Supports and Junglers) the possibility to roam effectively. Moreover, there is already another movement Mastery in Cunning, and it's just a T2 Mastery, so it's supposed to be directed toward early game and usable by everyone.

Ravenous Howls2 votes

Any and almost all of these ideas are far better for the resolve tree then anything we have in it at the moment. The problem is Riot doesn't want tanks to be strong which is kind of stupid b/c then all we see are ADC'S, Assassins and APC'S in the game at every position. It hurts the game diversity and potential team comps when you have to say well if I pick a tank I am hurting my team's damage output better play a carry just to be safe.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

you forgot the issue of the keystones.

after grasps sustain was cut in half, its mainly a on hit damage mastery that takes the same spot as fervor and is mostly an inferior version of fervor in an inferior tree.

CoC and bond of stone are highly specialized masteries that are only targeted at a small group of champions and leave almost all fighters completely without a useful keystone in that tree.

the next problem with the tree is, that most of its masteries are highly situational. resistances near turrets are ok for the early lane phase if youre playing a champion who gets constantly pressured under his turret. but its completely useless mid to lategame.

most of the ferocity and cunning masteries are not just straight up better, but far more versatile, since theyre useful in more situatons.

JerulEon1 votes

They should switch veteran scar and unyielding and buff unyielding so it's not garbage.

DeathBurst3 votes

That's part of what I suggested, yes. But I think the problem is deeper than that, and I'd really like a few words from Meddler or another Red.

They obviously took the time to create a general framework for the other Trees, so why didn't they bother to use it for Resolve?

Spoofghoul1 votes

i actually use perseverance a lot i like the mastery but maybe it would be better as % missing hp regeneration

i want a better tough skin, perhaps it could replace BoS, maybe Bond can go over to cunning as a weaker version where it just absorbs the damage but doesn't give any reductions or perhaps remove it completely

My idea for tough skin as a final keystone, reduce all incoming damage after resistances by 3% of missing health would be really nice for tanks to deal with sustained damage especially from dot's on hits and all the random aoe damage flying around in fights And to a lesser extend might help in the early game vs harass and poke a little bit

and it would scale with both health and resistances since it is applied after resistances, but it is missing health so it will only start to kick in after taking some damage

DeathBurst1 votes

I have no real issue with Bond of Stone, even if I'd prefer for it to be more effective for solo laners during laning phase. If that was the case, it would be a very decent mastery for Tanks like Shen/Sion/Poppy/etc.

Your version of Tough Skin is interesting, but I think it's better for a T4 than a Keystone, because it lacks some interactivity. (Bond of Stone also lacks interactivity, but your suggestion doesn't improve on that point.)

Spoofghoul1 votes

Yea it doesn't really improve interactivity, it's pretty much a tank steroid which rewards you for staying alive longer with more survivability.

Bond of stone is just as uninteresting but so are many of the keystones to be honest.

Take fervor for example, it's also not much else then a stat boost, actually very similar to my tough skin suggestion longer fight more = more ad. And so is warlords, lower hp more lifesteal very similar situation.

Bond of stone could be a lot better i agree, but then it might synergize too much with the new knights vow item another option would be to make it block 4% of max health from the next damaging ability every 5 seconds which would help defend vs poke in lane

MrWasjig1 votes

Upvoted for visibility! This needs to be addressed now, or we'll be waiting all bloody year for it!

And as a Support Main, I'd like to see it looked at now

TheHappyReaperz1 votes

We need to talk about masteries before the preseason ends. The preseason has yet to start

Photos of Ghosts1 votes

It's already been on PBE for 2 weeks and had lots of changes but none on that matter

RisenDarkKnight1 votes

I agree with your general points, but not about the dangerous game/summoner's insight one. Many tanky top laners are dependent on summoner spell cooldowns (though Maokai teleport flank -> flash -> W combo), so summoner's insight is really core for them, but dangerous game really makes way more sense as a mastery for squishies (is the game really dangerous if you're a tank?).

I guess it does kind of make sense that summoner's insight could go to cunning since tanks could just go 0/12/18 and still pick it up, but i feel like it would be adding too much power to the cunning tree. It would also nerf supports, since they often take summoner's insight but it would conflict with bandit if it was put as a tier 4 cunning mastery.

DeathBurst2 votes

As you mentioned, Tanks can go 0-12-18, and I don't think it's a bad thing to force bursty champs to choose between 12-18-0 and 0-18-12, depending on whether they really want Dangerous Game (and some general durability) or even more damage. I didn't think about Supports, though (and shame on me, it's my 2nd most played role...).

I'd argue that Bandit, as a laning Mastery that can be used by everyone (I take it on a lot of Top) should be a T2, but then we get into a problem of power level: if Bandit is moved to T2, it needs to be nerfed accordingly, and that's increasing Supports gold deficit even more (in proportions). Another option is embracing the fact that the two Masteries have to compete, and they indeed offer the kind of interesting choices that I appreciate in other cases: do you go for increasing your base power (summoners CD) or do you aim for the late game and want to scale with items (gold)? It's just that, in the current context, I really don't want to nerf Supports.

But overall, swapping DG and SI may not be a good idea, you're right. (I don't buy the "thematics" argument though. I don't give a shit about the name of the Mastery. Plus, I think it may be "game" as in "the animals you hunt", not "the act of playing", and hunting "Dangerous Game" offers big reward.)

Skias1 votes

The resolve mastery tree is pretty non interactive and quite weak.

DeathBurst1 votes

Power level is not a problem. It can be adjusted in regular patches. But we MUST address the structural problems NOW because it's probably too disruptive for when the season has really started.

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

Why the hell should summoners cd go to cunning when its up to the frontline to start plays. Frontlines need summs cd reduction to be able to make plays more often.

Do NOT move that damn mastery over to cunning

DeathBurst1 votes

That was just a small part of the whole post, and Frontliners can go for 0-12-18 Masteries. And even if you really disagree with that, it doesn't invalidate the main point of the post, being that the Resolve Tree doesn't work as the other Trees and as it is supposed to do.

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