PSA: Don't ban under-powered champs that may snowball once in a while

DeathBurst·Dec 15, 2015·10 votes·1,808 views

Please, stop banning Darius and Illaoi. Sure, they can get a perfect ult and kill a team even when they have been shut down in lane. So can Katarina, and nobody bans her anymore. But Darius and Illaoi are just weak/average at the moment. Spending a ban on them is wasting it.

At least, Garen and Mundo are actually strong, even if they are not OP-level strong. They shouldn't be banned as much as they currently are, but it's understandable.

Meanwhile, at least one among Jax/Yi/Xin/Tryndamere is open in every game where Darius/Illaoi are banned.

60 Comments

Guyy FieriDec 15, 201512 votes

All things considered, sometimes I ban things I simply don't want to play against that game because they have some mechanic that it just annoying (like Illaoi). It's not that's it op, I just would rather not deal with it

DeathBurstDec 15, 20151 votes

It's a very valid point, and I completely agree. But Illaoi is banned in a vast majority of the games right now, so it's not the only reason at the moment.

kile147Dec 15, 20152 votes

I mean I recently played an ARAM game where our Illoai never died, yet out damaged everyone on both teams. It's not like the other team was playing horribly either. She may not always be OP but when she is capable of carrying with literally no items, the chances of going against a good Illoai is too high to risk it.

DeathBurstDec 15, 20152 votes

ARAM is, like, the perfect environment for her, and it is not even supposed to be balanced in the first place (the ARAM mode, not Illaoi). I'm rather confident she won't get any nerf in the next patch or two, and that she is in a good place balance-wise. But we'll see :)

kile147Dec 15, 20151 votes

I agree that she's probably statistically balanced. I think that she suffers from the core juggernaut design of having very obvious strengths, but not as obvious of weaknesses. There is never a point in any game where you should not be afraid of Illoai or Darius which I think is why they are perceived as being very strong, even if people reacting to that fear causes them to consistently outplay them. Darius and Illoai lose because people stay on their toes around them even when they are 0/10, which makes them lose and thus be balanced.

BastionKrossDec 16, 20152 votes

I disagree. An alarming amount of players just don't want to be a vessel. It's not fun to play against, it's tedious (but not difficult) to remove, and Illaoi isn't penalized much for spamming E to proc it.

I would say a very substantial amount of Illaoi bans right now are because her E is bullshit. And then a similar amount is because she's new and people don't want players that have no experience with her trying her out in their game.

venomous frostDec 15, 20158 votes

you talk about banning champions that may snowball once in a while

mentions yi/xin as must bans

???

jax/kench/quinn are pretty much must bans right now

DeathBurstDec 15, 20153 votes

*mentions yi/xin as much more important to ban than Darius/Illaoi #FixedThatForYou.

I don't say they have to be banned every game, but they deserve a ban much more than the other two (EDIT: because they can abuse the very strong hybrid stuff at the moment).

I agree that Kench is pretty strong right now. Quinn isn't, not at my ELO, at least.

The Sword SaintDec 15, 20151 votes

If you watched all stars 1v1 tournament, you know why to ban her.

SzunrayDec 15, 20152 votes

Yeah most of my games on summoners rift aren't decided by 1v1 fights between pros....

Laughing FishDec 15, 20154 votes

My favorite bans: Galio Urgot Yorick

DeathBurstDec 15, 20151 votes

Well, all of them are pretty annoying. If at least you don't just follow the crowd and have valid reasons for your bans, it doesn't bother me as much. But Darius/Illaoi are quasi-perma-banned because people don't read the patch notes / are dumb.

AkeneroDec 15, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Laughing Fish,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gUILapLE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-12-15T16:45:36.582+0000)

My favorite bans: Ive legit seen these in ranked No joke

Abd i play 2/3 of them

Laughing FishDec 15, 20151 votes

I have banned them in ranked before. But people get so angry, so I very rarely actually ban them in ranked games. But rest assured, if it is a normal/featured game with bans, it is always Galio Urgot Yorick http://static.tumblr.com/397f3fa8b3adbed7ae37e585c9e02d8e/xnexqw5/MhXnhitp8/tumblr_static_5nbt32icgps0okgkokg88osw0.gif

YumaS2AstralDec 15, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Laughing Fish,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gUILapLE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-12-15T16:45:36.582+0000)

My favorite bans:

My favorite bans are Galio Aatrox Yorick

if you know what I mean Taric

I Miss CannonDec 15, 20153 votes

Illaoi weak xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD These boards i swear...

DeathBurstDec 15, 20151 votes

Wanna take a bet? There will be no Illaoi nerf for at least 4 patches. I'm 99 % sure she won't be nerfed next patch because there is nothing on the PBE, and I'm 90 % sure there won't be anything the patch after that because "people still need time to learn her patterns and adapt". But I'm willing to take some risks, so let's say 4 wholes patches, not just 2.

I Miss CannonDec 15, 20151 votes

Yeah because Riot doesn't know what they are doing anymore, random Malzahar and Karthus nerf but Tahm Kench still being untouched is the best proof.

DeathBurstDec 16, 20151 votes

Except Tahm was touched. They removed his MS away from enemies, meaning he can't always escape, on top of having 2 health bars.

I Miss CannonDec 16, 20151 votes

Yeah, because the MS when he moved away from enemies totally was the problem. Not his 2 health bars, not his stupid high damage, not his spammable 70% slow with stupid hitbox, not him doing carry damage while being a full tank, not him being able to save CCed allies, not him being totally unfun. The MS when he moved away from his enemies was a problem and now he's balanced. /s

DeathBurstDec 16, 20151 votes

Well, we are on the boards, so I had assumed you would follow the news, but apparently you need to read that...

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/HZEhZgif-followup-tahm-kench

DreadlocksDec 15, 20152 votes

I ban Zilean, fight me.

DeathBurstDec 15, 20151 votes

I don't think he fits my description of "may snowball" :p

I won't fight you, but I'll be surprised. Why are you banning him?

DreadlocksDec 15, 20151 votes

Because he is insanely un-fun to play against when he's being played mid. 30second ult CD with decent or a lot of ap is like having 2 lives. And the duration that the ult stays on means you don't want to kill him because then he will just get more hp, but if u dont kill him he will kill you.

Not Fun.

DeathBurstDec 15, 20153 votes

FYI, the CD reduction from the W doesn't work for the ult CD anymore (patch 5.4) and the ult CD is 120/90/60.

DreadlocksDec 15, 20151 votes

60 x .45 = 27 .... 60-27=33 So yeah 33 second CD with 45% CDR.

DeathBurstDec 15, 20151 votes

Ah, yes, sorry I didn't understand your previous post. Maybe there was a word missing somewhere?

Ult rank 3 and 40% CDR means it's pretty late in the game, though. Zilean still has only 1 ult for 5 people. Do as you please, but especially given his very low pick rate, I would not ban him personally.

DreadlocksDec 16, 20151 votes

Yeah i mean we all have that champion we just hate to play vs, generally when i ban, i get rid of 2 meta champs then 1 i really dont wana play vs. Its just something i generally do, i understand not everyone does.

Sire HippingtonDec 15, 20152 votes

i'm not supprised to see zilean bans, guy has the highest winrate at plat+ atm. http://champion.gg/champion/Zilean/Middle Since they changed his Q to be more reliable, he's a monster in skilled hands.

DreadlocksDec 16, 20151 votes

Yeah and i'm gold 1, so i see lots of plat players. Lol annoying AF jesus i didn't know it was 57% winrate though.

Ruin LanceDec 15, 20152 votes

my main problem with fighting darius/illaoi is not necessarily that they're gonna snowball really hard, it's just that their laning phase is, for a lack of a better word, total cancer. illaoi can literally zone you off of your tower. it's just not fun to play against. as for darius his laning phase is the only thing that bugs me because of the 180 damage bleed he can give you at like level 3 or 4.

IqqiDec 15, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Please, stop banning Darius and Illaoi. Sure, they can get a perfect ult and kill a team even when they have been shut down in lane. So can Katarina, and nobody bans her anymore. But Darius and Illaoi are just weak/average at the moment. Spending a ban on them is wasting it.

At least, Garen and Mundo are actually strong, even if they are not OP-level strong. They shouldn't be banned as much as they currently are, but it's understandable.

Meanwhile, at least one among Jax/Yi/Xin/Tryndamere is open in every game where Darius/Illaoi are banned.

I believe it is supposed to be a high risk high reward kind of thing. If you have the potential to destroy a whole team then you have to have some other larger weaknesses. I also would not compare potential Melee hyper carries to Illaoi. She is nothing like them. Unlike your 3 examples who must be in melee range and physically attack their opponent, Illaoi simply clicks buttons. There is a huge difference.

Illaoi needs to be changed at some capacity. If she is supposed to have the ability to destroy teams late game, then she needs her early and mid games changed. Thats the rock/sizzors/glue system Riot has. You have to have a trade off that extends past matches. Saying Illaoi doesnt need a nerf because X champion can beat her is not how it works.

TLDR: Illaoi is nothing like Jax, Yi, Xin, or Trynd. If she is supposed to be able to destroy whole teams late game with items than she needs to be nerfed in her early and mid game. She is a low risk high reward champion and if she gets fed she can destroy while maintaining her distance.

Espy PsycheDec 15, 20151 votes

FYI, Illaoi was never nerfed. I just double checked the patch notes to be sure. All she got was a bugfix.

DeathBurstDec 15, 20152 votes

Never said that she was nerfed. Yet, she's still average at the moment, and not worthy of the 50+% banrate she encounters.

AazzlanoDec 15, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Never said that she was nerfed. Yet, she's still average at the moment, and not worthy of the 50+% banrate she encounters.

She isn't fun to play against. Contrary to popular belief, most people play for fun.

DeathBurstDec 15, 20151 votes

Well, I don't think it's particularly fun to be stomped by some of the truly OP champs in this patch (mainly looking at Jax right now). So better ban Jax than Illaoi. And yet, Illaoi ban rate is 53%, Jax is 39%...

Also, most people play for fun in ranked?

KorilloDec 15, 20151 votes

Illaoi bans will go down, infact I haven't seen any Illaoi bans in the past week in my games. New champions are often banned because people don't know what they do/how to play against them yet and are too lazy to figure it out, so they just ban them. Which I am guilty of too, and will continue doing every new champion patch :p.

I also haven't seen Darius banned that often lately either. He is down to 32% Ban rate in NA atm.

It's surprising to me to hear you think Master Yi or Xin Zhao should be automatic bans. Master Yi is a common low ELO ban, but pre-season hasn't really made him any stronger imo. I have no idea why you think Xin may be banworthy.

Regardless, everyone has their reasons for banning certain champions. It's not really your place to tell them not to ban Darius or Illaoi.

DeathBurstDec 15, 20151 votes

You're the 2nd person to make the mistake. I did not say Yi or Xin should be automatic bans. I just said they are more ban-worthy than Darius/Illaoi. As for why I think that: because they can abuse Guinsoo/Gunblade, especially Xin. It's not as horrible as Jax, but it's still quite annoying. Plus yes, in silver 4, having a Yi in the game basically is a roll of the dice, because people don't know how to react against him.

KorilloDec 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You're the 2nd person to make the mistake. I did not say Yi or Xin should be automatic bans. I just said they are more ban-worthy than Darius/Illaoi. As for why I think that: because they can abuse Guinsoo/Gunblade, especially Xin. It's not as horrible as Jax, but it's still quite annoying. Plus yes, in silver 4, having a Yi in the game basically is a roll of the dice, because people don't know how to react against him.

Well I would disagree. I would ban Darius over Master Yi or Xin Xhao for sure. Illaoi is still in the new champion ban phase as I explained earlier so that will die out pretty soon.

CoolKnightSTDec 15, 20151 votes

Bans are different depending on the divsion you are in while must bans are verry uncommon. I give some examples:

Old was so broken your chance to win the game litterly went down to 10%
In the crit patch had a winrate of 70%.

This patch their are no real extreem broken champions. Their are some that are stronger than others but their are no picks where you would litterly lose the game from the they get through.

This patch is listed as the hybrid patch. Basicly any champions that deals mixed damage has the potentional to become really problematic. So if we have to talk about bans that could work for all divisions than it would be: Jax . This is litterly the only must ban right now. All others are litterly preference. But way this can help:

Bronze: You can just ban Jax & leave the remaining bans open. This are still people that are learning the game. They will make a lot of mistakes so the best thing you can do is take away their safe champions:
Silver: This is basicly the wombo division:
Gold: This is basicly the pick division:
Plat: Also known as the duel division:
Diamond & higher: These bans are more focussed arround banning things that they don't known yet. In this case it's . Other bans are pretty default:

So litterly the only thing you have todo this patch is ban Jax .

DeathBurstDec 15, 20151 votes

Well, yes but Tahm is still in 3/5 lists, Malph in 5, Mundo in 5, Brand in 3, Lucian in 5. Meanwhile, Darius is in 0, Illaoi in 0. Now look at the actual ban stats, in Silver:

Illaoi, 53%
Darius 39%
Jax, your absolute must ban, is only at 39%, same level as Darius
Tahm (3 appearances) even below at 24% (and 21% in global, it's not Silver effect)
Soraka is still at 18%
Malphite, Brand, Lucian, Wukong are not even in the top 20 most banned.

Basically, the only "right" bans (accroding to your list) from the community are Mundo, MF and Yasuo.

Now, do you understand why I made this thread? (Not that it will change anything, but I needed to vent...)

The Bíg TicketDec 15, 20151 votes

Jax with his 47% winrate which places him at rank 48 out of 55 toplaners? Good use of a ban imo.

CoolKnightSTDec 15, 20151 votes

Winrate doesn't shows anything if it's one specific build that makes Jax so strong not to mention the skillcap to master him.

ElipoDec 15, 20151 votes

Ill ban illaoi because every time Im against her I get teamed up with morons who dont dodge any of her abilities

SzunrayDec 15, 20151 votes

As long as you're doing that you might as well ban Blitzcrank. A champion that's played often and probably screws over more lanes than anyone but nobody wants to ban him because they don't want to look like a noob.

ElipoDec 15, 20152 votes

I really think illaois kits is way easier to dodge anyways, because all of her kit is way slower that blitz q

chipndip1Dec 15, 20151 votes

Title of the thread

Bans Tryndamere

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

DeathBurstDec 16, 20151 votes

I don't ban Tryndamere because he may snowball, or because you can dive a Trynda with his ult up under his turrer and then "OMG TRYNDA OP, HE 3V1'ED US!!!!". And that's what people do with Illaoi.

I ban Trynda because he has insane damage in early game due to his early Crits, good synergy with Warlord's Bloodlust for early sustain, as if he had not enough already, and he is an amazing splitpusher, even if you shut him down in lane. Very easy to counter in an organized team, but at my ELO, it wins game. So it should be banned. Before Darius. Darius don't win games. He just wins 3v1 if you are stupid enough to give them to him. Flashy, impressive, but not very useful.

(Also, Tryndamere is a 5th or 6th ban, there are still many things above him. This things are just not Darius/Illaoi...)

Not KatarinaDec 15, 20151 votes

I don't think Xin/Yi/Tryndamere or even Jax are OP [He's borderline, but not broken imo. Haven't had a hard time against one in a while.]. Bans are mainly opinionated, and unless there's been a buff/changes that result in out of line champions, I think bans should be a team effort and decision. New champion select encourages this. But still. Illaoi is extremely unfun to play against, that's why she sees bans. And Tryn/Xin/Yi are also extremely unfun to play against - don't get me wrong, some people would just rather one over the other. :)

On a side note it makes me sad bans have had to be based off of what is OP instead of what counters the composition your team wants to play.

DeathBurstDec 16, 20151 votes

Agree on the side note.

I really think Hybrid Jax is OP. For the other 3, I don't think they are OP, but they are often open and are much stronger than the champs that are actually banned. It's not logical, and it doesn't help you win to ban Darius/Illaoi/whatever champ may make the buzz.