@Riot: Maybe I'm missing something, but Banner of Command and ZZ'rot really feel redundant...

DeathBurst··25 votes·1,843 views

I'm not convinced by the patch notes about Banner of Command being shifted to Support Tanks. Sure, it was too all over the place before, but if you had to re-focus it on one class, it was Enchantress, not Tanks. Tanks already have ZZ'rot, and Enchantress need a way to manipulate minion waves too.

But okay, maybe I'm missing something. So, what's supposed to be the point of differentiation between ZZ'rot and Banner, beyond the fact that they have slightly different stat lines?

58 Comments

BastionKross8 votes

Riot is (finally) finishing the defensive update that was started with juggernauts. Juggernaut items tend to have lots of HP, and juggernauts tend to have high resists to give them incentive to buy those juggernaut items instead of tank items.

Tanks are getting the opposite treatment. Tank items are shifting into more resists while (hopefully) tanks will get a class update soon to increase their HP values so that they work better with those tank items.

This has several pros to it:

  • Juggernauts and tanks are much less likely to abuse each other's items and call upon the attention of the nerf bat.
  • Tanky champions will have stronger synergies with their items, making them tankier.
  • Non-tanky champions will have weaker synergies with tanky items, since they would need to buy multiple defensive items to grab the required HP and resists that tanky champs would get with just one.

This is great stuff. However, it does draw into question why the tank rework wasn't done right after juggernauts, completing the entire update in a single season instead of having tanks and tank itemization languish for so long. Keystones brought so much free damage to season 6, it would have been better to increase tankiness to keep up with it at the same time.

Brutalitops011 votes

{quoted}

Riot is (finally) finishing the defensive update that was started with juggernauts. Juggernaut items tend to have lots of HP, and juggernauts tend to have high resists to give them incentive to buy those juggernaut items instead of tank items.

Tanks are getting the opposite treatment. Tank items are shifting into more resists while (hopefully) tanks will get a class update soon to increase their HP values so that they work better with those tank items.

This has several pros to it:

  • Juggernauts and tanks are much less likely to abuse each other's items and call upon the attention of the nerf bat.
  • Tanky champions will have stronger synergies with their items, making them tankier.
  • Non-tanky champions will have weaker synergies with tanky items, since they would need to buy multiple defensive items to grab the required HP and resists that tanky champs would get with just one.

This is great stuff. However, it does draw into question why the tank rework wasn't done right after juggernauts, completing the entire update in a single season instead of having tanks and tank itemization languish for so long. Keystones brought so much free damage to season 6, it would have been better to increase tankiness to keep up with it at the same time.

The midseason update will likely be Divers and the preseason 8 update will likely be Tanks.

Ralanr4 votes

Still up in the air.

The Yetii Rider9 votes

{quoted}

The midseason update will likely be Divers and the preseason 8 update will likely be Tanks.

Riot is pretty conflicted about Divers vs Vanguards at the moment, from what I've seen.

Noblewind1 votes

They've said Divers are in more need of work in terms of the champions (I.e. irelia+Xin are extremely similar at their core, Tryn kit is busted, etc), Tanks moreso from the overall class (tank items not appealing just to their style or class, etc.).

If they can make changes like this to items/masteries to make them more useful to tanks than others, my vote would be on Divers being next to freshen up those old kits.

warpenguin5551 votes

yeah from what i have seen Riot hasnt given any hints towards either side. IMO you cant go wrong with picking either side

Ralanr2 votes

Tanks get more resistance items because of high base health.

Meanwhile Shen and Sion go cry in the corner because their "effective" health abilities force poor base stats.

BastionKross1 votes

Yeah, hopefully the tank class update gives Shen a redo to get rid of that silly floating sword gimmick that doesn't match his character at all, and Sion can finally stop getting penalized for having infinite scaling in a stat that has many percentage counters.

DeathBurst3 votes

I mean, Resistances still multiply the value of Sion's shield, effective health doesn't deserve any quote. I don't play Shen, and I am ready to believe that the shorter duration of Shen's shield makes it hard to fully exploit it (even though, it also has a shorter CD to compensate), but Sion's shield last for 6 whole seconds.

Baron of Bread1 votes

For Sion the main thing is his W passive, not active. Sion is required to farm effectively or he won't be tanky because his base health is trash.

DeathBurst2 votes

If you take into account that his W active gives him 130 + 10% max HP, his effective health is really not so bad compared to a lot of other Tanks.

Sion @ lvl18: 1780 + 130 + 0.1*1780 = 2088, even with strictly 0 farm. With barely 100 CS (which is pretty bad, mind you), you're over 2300 effective HP.

Sejuani: 2200 Reksai: 2100 Gragas: 2096 Braum and Leona: 2055 Amumu : 2040 Rammus: 2026 Gallio: 2022

Sure, Sion is not in the very top, and stuff like Alistar, Poppy, Zac have more than him. But he does have infinite scaling, so you can't expect him to be in the very top to begin with. And he's definitely not as trash as these boards would make you believe.

EDIT: and with 200 CS, counting 0 monster or canon minion, or champion takedown, you are at 2520 eHP. That's huge. Given that every canon/monster/champion takedown is equivalent to 5 normal CS, it's a very realistic target. For reference, according to champion.gg, the typical Sion Top ends the game with 14 takedowns and 192 CS, which is at the very least 528 bonus HP, assuming there was 0 canon/monster in those 192 CS. That still puts him at 2308 base HP, above any other champ except Alistar in terms of base health. And this is an average, so it does count all the games where Sion got dumpstered and all the stomps that ended in 20 minutes. In a winning game, Sion probably has a couple hundreds HP than any other Tank typically has.

TequilaZombie1 votes

Not to mention that farming minion waves as Sion is laughably easy with his Q+W destroying a full minion wave.

Baron of Bread1 votes

You didn't account for the fact that every tank has a way to increase their effective health (like added resists in their kit or heals or shields). Sejuani gets an armor passive, Gragas gets a %HP scaling heal and a %damage reduction, Braum and Leona both get resistance buffs, Amumu takes reduced damage from auto attacks (albeit not much), Rammus gets a resistance buff, Galio gets a heal and a resistance buff, Alistar gets damage reduction, Poppy gets a shield and a resistance buff, and Zac gets heals. Every single tank has a way to make their health more effective than it otherwise would be. That's why they are tanks (except Rek'sai who was supposed to be a fighter, but she still has a heal).

Yes, Sion can get tankier than basically everybody. However, it generally takes a long time and if you don't get to cs freely then you aren't as tanky as other tanks. I know he isn't bad, but it still feels kinda bad that your HP is trash until you farm it up.

DeathBurst1 votes

Yes, Sion can get tankier than basically everybody. However, it generally takes a long time

It takes a very reasonable time to get equally tanky as plenty of other Tanks who are actually used and no one is complaining about. Over the duration of an average game, and even despite his trash base stat, he still currently gets more HP than anyone except Alistar.

DeathBurst3 votes

This is a great analysis (even if nothing new for me), but that doesn't really answer my question about ZZ'rot versus Banner ^^'

Both have Armor/MR, no HP, and an active for manipulating minion waves. ZZ'rot has MS and a bit of HP Regen, whereas Banner has mana and CDR. That's a very subtle difference, if you ask me, and the items are not different enough. So I feel like Banner should have been targeted toward another class of champions entirely, and not towards Tanks who already have ZZ'rot.

EDIT: oh I forgot. The Tank rework wasn't done because the Tank class was healthier than ADC and Assassin, and so didn't need the rework as much, even despite the clunky itemization. Personally, I think they would've been a more valuable update than Mages, though, but since the Mage update felt a bit rushed, I think that us Tank Players are still better off with waiting and getting a good update.

BastionKross1 votes

ZZ'rot has MS and a bit of HP Regen, whereas Banner has mana and CDR. That's a very subtle difference, if you ask me, and the items are not different enough.

Banner has 15 less MR, which is quite significant considering MR is more difficult to grab for tanks than armor is. Once you grab item 3102 and maybe item 3001 there's not really any options left open. item 3065 is quite expensive (as far as tank items go), only gives the same amount of MR as the portal does, and has a passive that a lot of tanks can't fully utilize because they don't have sustain. Visage is more of a juggernaut item now.

Hell, the new item 3190 has 60 MR and 30 Armor. I wouldn't be surprised to see jungle and top lane tanks picking it up second or third against AP heavy teams just for the stats alone. That active can still be useful on a non-support as well.

Banner is also 500 gold cheaper. That's nothing to dismiss. It's a whole item 2033 worth of gold. That's 10 item 2003.

The Tank rework wasn't done because the Tank class was healthier than ADC and Assassin...

It's difficult for something to be unhealthy for the game if it rarely gets used. Urgot Aatrox item 3056 item 3153

Think about it this way. If you count the juggernaut update as the first modern class update, we've had one defensive class and three damage class updates (including updating the class that naturally counters tanks). Combine that with keystones that added more damage to the game as a whole, and defensive classes are struggling to stay relevant.

DeathBurst1 votes

Spirit is still the go to item even if you can't fully exploit the passive. It works on Regen, on heals from allies, and it's more slot efficient than Banshee.

And MR is harder to get than Armor because Magic DPS is also much more rare than Physical DPS. To resist Magic Burst, HP work just as well as MR, and it's not common as a Tank to die because of a lack of MR, unless you're against a fed Ryze or Cassio.

BastionKross1 votes

It works on Regen

All champions have HP regen. Some more than others, but unless you're Mundo or Heimer it's not worth it.

on heals from allies

Heavily conditional. You need an ally that heals others on your team, and you need that ally to actually heal you instead of the carry. Both of those are completely out of your control. Technically it works on those HP restoring plants that are in every game, but I wouldn't buy it just for that since it's RNG if and where they spawn.

and it's more slot efficient than Banshee.

Tank items are generally cheap enough that you don't need to worry as much about efficiency as you would about AP or AD items. Squeezing the most out of your gold isn't as important when you're not dropping huge amounts on an Infinity Edge or Deathcap. However, Spirit Visage is quite a chunk of cash, so if you can't make the passive do a lot of work it becomes the exception to the rule.

Spirit Visage is more for juggernauts, bruisers, and fighters who have built in sustain or purchase lifesteal items. Riot increased the HP and lowered the resist last season specifically to make it more appealing to those three classes and to differentiate it from Banshee Veil which was balanced for tanks to use instead.

You could argue that since the tank update hasn't come yet that some tanks don't have the higher HP values they need to make the most of resist focused items like BV, but that's part of the reason why tanks aren't doing so hot; some of them get punished for building items balanced specifically for them. That's a huge reason why having the tank update take place so long after the juggernaut update was a horrible idea. The tank update should have happened right after juggernauts, since both of them are half of the whole defensive update.

And MR is harder to get than Armor because Magic DPS is also much more rare than Physical DPS. To resist Magic Burst, HP work just as well as MR, and it's not common as a Tank to die because of a lack of MR, unless you're against a fed Ryze or Cassio.

If this was two years ago, I'd agree with you. However, masteries provide so much more magic damage that it's becoming more and more common to receive constant magic damage. Not only do you have keystones that deal magic damage like Thunderlords, DFT, and Grasp, you have that new mastery Greenfathers that not only deals magic damage on a fairly low CD but also does %HP damage as well. Sure you have to duck into a bush first, but bushes are all over the Rift and multiple are in each lane.

On top of that there's several masteries that boost the damage of what type you're already doing, like Sorcery and all three tier 4 masteries in the ferocity tree. Those all increase magic damage, including abilities that are multi-hit or DoT and chewed through tanks before the boost.

This rhetoric about MR needing to be harder to get because magic damage mostly comes in bursts is becoming less and less true as League evolves. Even building lots of HP is losing it's appeal since Riot seems to be insisting they put %HP damage everywhere nowadays. I remember back when having %HP damage was special; that's not the case anymore.

Make no mistake, tanks need help. They need help now, they needed it last season, and depending on whether or not they're the next class that gets chosen for the mid year update they'll need help for at least six more months. I guess we did get Knight's Vow though, and it'll be fun playing with that. Too bad you can't get two champions to make a vow with each other, since a juggernaut and tank linked as such might actually survive longer than three or four seconds in a teamfight.

A man can dream.

DeathBurst1 votes

I have difficulties endorsing the rhetoric that "Tanks need help". I play mostly Tanks and Juggernauts, this is the classes I get most success with, and every time I try something different, I perform consistently lower. Maybe it's just that the playstyle fit me and that I'm performing better on Tanks in spite of everything you described. But without a point of reference, I really can't believe that Tanks are in such a poor state...

BastionKross1 votes

The point of reference I use is seasons 1-4. 5 you could count as far as Cinderhulk was strong, but that was only half the season before Sated became the one jungle item to rule them all. Back then, tanks thought nothing of going in 1v3 or 1v4 as long as one of those wasn't an anti-tank champion like Yi or Vayne. The tanks wouldn't win those fights, but they weren't in much danger of losing them either. Teamfights with multiple tanks lasted significantly longer than they do today, for better or worse.

And it wasn't unfair, since tanks back then had just enough damage to be a real threat to squishy priority targets, but not enough that they'd be able to do things like 1v1 on a consistent basis. Most of the time if you encountered the enemy tank in the jungle 1v1, it was best if you let him turn around and walk away since if you started a fight with him that skirmish would be 30 seconds or longer of you chasing him around the map like a comedy sketch. It wasn't worth it to dump important abilities on tanks because they'd just live through it and continue being annoying.

That's not how things worked in season 6. Tanks deal more damage (excellent offensive masteries) but they can't withstand as much punishment as they used to (the resolve tree is a joke with what it provides compared to the other two). That makes them essentially secondhand juggernauts with more CC and less carry potential.

That being said, tanks can still be tanks if they get ahead or if the enemy team goes all AD or all AP. Mostly that happens in RGMs and ARAM where you get five AP champs facing down a Leona with 300+ MR and is always the last one to die because no one can get rid of her. However, you shouldn't have to rely on getting fed or getting lucky in a non-standard gamemode to actually be a tank.

A major portion of a tank's job is to grab and hold aggro, and a large part of that means staying alive a long time. Modern tanks really struggle staying alive a long time compared to previous seasons.

Valeckserai4 votes

item 3512 is better at splitpushing since it can take down entire towers down by itself if placed right, can hold lanes while you get objectives elsewhere, gets you more gold, gives better tank stats overall, and gives you some movespeed around turrets

item 3060 is better for building to screw over any ap lane oponent. They took Vladimir top? Wish him luck with clearing that siege minion with his autos. It screws over people's wave pushing power and keeps your turret safe in laning phase. It is also usefull for split pushing, but not as good as zz'rot.

DeathBurst1 votes

Thanks for the input. Given my lack of experience with Banner (whereas I'm a very regular user of ZZ'rot), it's really helpful.

I still think the difference is very small, and not worth having two different items, though.

The Blue Rajah2 votes

Also worth noting, Banner is substantially cheaper, making it a lot easier for a tank support to purchase if they want to opt into that playstyle when compared to zz'rot, which is a full fledged tank item (with corresponding price).

DarkRitual1 votes

As a support main, I won't touch Banner on most tanks. Gold Gen item, Sightstone, Boots, Knight's Vow, Randuins, Banshee's. There's little room for more, and Zz'Rot is nearly always better if you had to pick between it and Banner.

Valeckserai1 votes

Oh, and if you get a Barron buffed super minion and then promote it with Banner it is hilarious seeing people trying to take that thing down. That bastard will be neigh immortal if their adc isn't there.

Meep Man3 votes

Yorick : The Tri-Lane Push is strengthened.

Oglaf1 votes

Personally, I feel like the entire Aegis line of items were rendered worthless with the removal of the Magic Resist aura.

DeathBurst7 votes

No, that was a needed change. Aegis was just too strong before, and being FORCED to buy it no matter what, when you already were on a tight budget as a Support, was very annoying.

Oglaf1 votes

{quoted}

No, that was a needed change. Aegis was just too strong before, and being FORCED to buy it no matter what, when you already were on a tight budget as a Support, was very annoying.

I disagree on the caveat that Locket was a solid Support item in the end. It is not like they forced you to build a crappy item only for the Magic Resist aura.

DeathBurst5 votes

It was a solid defensive item. What if we are dumpstering our lane and I want to go for offense? Well, nope, build this Solari first or get rekt when team-fights come.

Oglaf1 votes

{quoted}

It was a solid defensive item. What if we are dumpstering our lane and I want to go for offense? Well, nope, build this Solari first or get rekt when team-fights come.

Isn't that a curse inherent to the Support role as a whole?

DeathBurst1 votes

Well, I need to do a few tests to make sure, but first impressions from the patch that just came out is: no, it's not anymore. You can rush an Eyestone for 1900 gold, and then you're free to build whatever feels appropriate, and not the same OP items over and over.

Oglaf1 votes

{quoted}

Well, I need to do a few tests to make sure, but first impressions from the patch that just came out is: no, it's not anymore. You can rush an Eyestone for 1900 gold, and then you're free to build whatever feels appropriate, and not the same OP items over and over.

And "whatever feels appropriate" is still the same old support items except Locket/Banner. If anything, if you like the beefier supports like myself, it was just replaced on the "must have"-list with the new Knight's Vow. Because... why wouldn't you pick it in Braum or Taric? Especially combo'd with BoS.

DeathBurst1 votes

Honestly, not sure about that.

For Tanks, Knight's Vow and the new Solary feel like 2 really good picks depending on the situation, instead of 1 being a must-have and the other a luxury item.

And for Enchantresses, basically all Idol upgrades are viable and more or less situational. You ahead and willing to take trades? Go for Censer. You're doing okay but the enemy mid-laner is snowballing hard? Mikael is probably a good idea. You have a wombo comp, Redemption is your best bet. And if you don't want Mikael, Athenes is another interesting alternative.

The Blue Rajah4 votes

Well this is a step towards changing that.

Imperial Japan1 votes

I agree, I've never built banner on tanks and never will. The only people I've built it on were Morgana, Zara, etc

Oglaf2 votes

[{quoted}](name=DLTD Stuart,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=emEjKt0t,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-11-09T15:40:24.438+0000)

I agree, I've never built banner on tanks and never will. The only people I've built it on were Morgana, Zara, etc

There were times where I built it on Sejuani

DeathBurst2 votes

Does Amumu count? :D

Imperial Japan1 votes

{quoted}

There were times where I built it on Sejuani

Just a question but why?

Oglaf1 votes

[{quoted}](name=DLTD Stuart,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=emEjKt0t,comment-id=000400000001,timestamp=2016-11-11T11:23:29.371+0000)

Just a question but why?

  • Our support didn't build Locket, so the Aegis MR aura (RIP MR aura...)
  • AP, while not great, is semi-useful on her
  • Being a jungler, you can just pop out into a lane that has an pushing advantage and use the active on a siege minion at your leisure.
DeathBurst5 votes

Well, that's normal, it WAS NOT designed for Tanks before. But now, it has very clearly been re-focused, and you should build it on Tanks, but I have difficulties understanding this decision.

Imperial Japan1 votes

{quoted}

Well, that's normal, it WAS NOT designed for Tanks before. But now, it has very clearly been re-focused, and you should build it on Tanks, but I have difficulties understanding this decision.

Same

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

Just bought it together with ZZ rot as naut top. Singlehandedly carrying the game. I like the new banner tbh. And also collosus. I felt very impactful as a tank.

Imperial Japan1 votes

{quoted}

Just bought it together with ZZ rot as naut top. Singlehandedly carrying the game. I like the new banner tbh. And also collosus. I felt very impactful as a tank.

Does the new mastery stack with the amount of enemies hit? Also it's not a good thing at a balance point to have you single Handedly carry

Immortal spax1 votes

Most of "enchantress" supp have a some sort of push wave ability (Morg W, Raka Q, Janna Q, Nami Q, Lux Q,E and R) so its fair that tanks have banner too.

ModKnightsKemplar2 votes

but tanks already have zz'rot... I don't see how two wave pushing items for tanks is helpful. I think that's his point.

warpenguin5551 votes

I agree. I say get rid of ZZ'Rot. Banner is more healthy

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

I was thinking the same thing. This idea they had isn't BAD, per se, but it needs refinement. In another post, someone mentioned how weird it is to put armor on banner at all. It's a mage-counter item, primarily, because it stops mages from being able to push as hard. Why put armor on it at all?

Taken together, the existence of Zz'rot and the niche that Banner really ought to fill make it very strange to me that they designed it to build out of the new aegis. Zz'rot should build out of aegis, and Banner should build out of something else entirely.

DeathBurst1 votes

Yeah but Solari is also an anti-mage item with the AoE shield to counter Burst. And Supports don't want so much MR, they need armor too.

And ZZ'rot from Aegis? That's kinda a neat idea, but I really like Raptor's cloak, and I wouldn't like to lose this passive on ZZ'rot...

DeathBurst1 votes

I'm gonna resurrect this thread from a year ago. It's even worse now, both items offer exactly the same kind of stats: Armor, MR, a bit of Regen, and their active. The only difference is the price range, and the banner active being more generically useful. What's the point of differenciation between those two items? Why keep them both for the same class?

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