You know what would allow junglers their 200+ EXP camps and megacarry champion pool?

Inari Fox Orrion··46 votes·14,024 views

Vision. That's the simplest answer. The problem with being ganked at low levels is that you have been slowly removing the counterplay, Riot. Pink wards are useless if you don't have complete lane dominance. Popping one down is a free 30g for the enemy team unless they die for looking at it (or you place it too close to the wall so ranged attacks can reach.)

Think of this: the basic warding trinket has a CD that's thrice the duration of the ward itself, meaning -- using Bot as the best, least annoying example -- you can be aware of the fact you can (or cannot) make plays for the first three minutes of the game. Then on, you'll need to be playing like a bitch under tower or to the rightmost side of the lane (not that it helps against champions like Sejuani) for the next nine minutes. Nine freaking minutes. I'll have my finished support item before I can place another ward.

The lack of vision is a problem. It's what has caused this hate for a role, and the regret that it was trashed. Junglers decide the game because you have no way to know about them. Sure, you can be somewhat aware of where they are on the map, but humans will be humans and do unusual and inefficient or improper things that may end well (or badly) for you and your team. Lv2 ganks. Lv1 ganks. Lv3 cheese. Ganks after the enemy team has recalled. I can go on.

If you allow us all reasonable vision, you can allow the enemy jungler to be as healthy and well-leveled as their Mid... because you, like, have a way to deal with them before they leap onto you because you left tower range. Don't like that enemy Kha'Zix? Buy three wards for 45g a pop and place them down in the small bushes within the river. Don't like the enemy Kayn? Place a ward behind the walls in the enemy jungle.

...or you can keep on the path you're currently walking where it's the most impactful role solely because it's the most unknown and snowball-oriented, all because you can't actually see them until they're on top of you or a teammate. That's O.K too.

Edit: buying wards to be aware of the enemy jungler's movements would become a viable strategy, if dangerous. Caught warding them out? U's a ded boi. Caught them low on health because they're being reckless? They's a ded boi instead. The price attached to wards would allow both early junglers their clears unless the Mid or Top or AD or support gave a large portion of their buy money up for what's basically a complete gamble that could even get them killed for warding it out, and in general having vision off a timer and on a budget would do well for alleviating the issues people have with "support has too much money!" as well. It kills two birds you had set loose, with one stone.

66 Comments

U R Good At Game27 votes

Bot lane is the best example? Which ever top has tribush is fucked all game. At least bot has 2 people. Tribush top is literally bot vision cut in half. That's a huge reason why people feel like JG wins top. You can't even keep 100% uptime on ONE of the gank paths in top let alone all 3 of them. Combined with the fact that most top laners have little to no mobility. Your basically dead past river if you can't 1v2.

The amount of times I'm like "Welp, I have 120 to next ward, they destroyed my pink so gg" is insane. You should not be allowed to be forced to play blind top.

/rant

Inari Fox Orrion1 votes

[{quoted}](name=I Play This Game,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iExEfluc,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-07-11T17:49:18.799+0000)

Bot lane is the best example? Which ever top has tribush is fucked all game. At least bot has 2 people. Tribush top is literally bot vision cut in half. That's a huge reason why people feel like JG wins top. You can't even keep 100% uptime on ONE of the gank paths in top let alone all 3 of them. Combined with the fact that most top laners have little to no mobility. Your basically dead past river if you can't 1v2.

The amount of times I'm like "Welp, I have 120 to next ward, they destroyed my pink so gg" is insane. You should not be allowed to be forced to play blind top.

/rant

"Best" as in "least frustrating". It's still shit either way though, so I can see why you'd get confused.

Cubical3 votes

[{quoted}](name=I Play This Game,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iExEfluc,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-07-11T17:49:18.799+0000)

At least bot has 2 people.

Do you really think ADCs ward?

FSRER4 votes

At platinum and higher, you ping that you have ward on cd as support and the adc will most of the time ward

Voluug131 votes

Really on my experience climbing is that outside bronze, a lot of adc on SoloQ ward decently (in lane), some even buy pink wards if we are dominating.

U R Good At Game1 votes

{quoted}

At least bot has 2 people.

Do you really think ADCs ward?

More than the lack of second person top..can be confirmed by any vision placed counter on scoreboard.

Z3SIeeper1 votes

He said "best, least annoying" aka the best version of vision control (cuz bot lane has 2 laners with warding trinkets).

He was using it as an example of how even the best lane for vision control has massive vision downtime.

Teh Song13 votes

It's all about happy mediums.

With too little vision, it can be too easy for a jungler to gank. With too much vision, jungler becomes unplayable, among other problems.

From all the experience I have with multiple mobas, I tell you with certainty that having too much vision is a much bigger problem than having too little.

That said, I don't know who's been in your matches, but the experience I've been having in LoL (talking present day here) has been that wards are always up. When I a jungler using Duskblade, I swear it reveals an enemy ward every single time I get near a lane.

Inari Fox Orrion3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Teh Song,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iExEfluc,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-07-11T16:16:48.623+0000)

It's all about happy mediums.

With too little vision, it can be too easy for a jungler to gank. With too much vision, jungler becomes unplayable, among other problems.

From all the experience I have with multiple mobas, I tell you with certainty that having too much vision is a much bigger problem than having too little.

That said, I don't know who's been in your matches, but the experience I've been having in LoL (talking present day here) has been that wards are always up. When I a jungler using Duskblade, I swear it reveals an enemy ward every single time I get near a lane.

Fair. In my experience though, there're almost always too few wards -- especially early-on when ganks are the most common. It contributes even further to an irritating snowball meta on top of that. Die to a gank you had no way of knowing about, because you left tower range? They're now fed and you're going to have one hell of a time getting back into the game.

I Spread Cancer1 votes

Comming from someone who ward far below the average. Of course if everyone is like you in your team you have no vision.

Inari Fox Orrion2 votes

[{quoted}](name=l Main Cancer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iExEfluc,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2019-07-12T09:07:55.331+0000)

Comming from someone who ward far below the average. Of course if everyone is like you in your team you have no vision.

??? My wards are never off-cooldown. I don't know what you're talking about. It's part of what inspired me to make this post, actually: I was in a match and I had been making sure never to let my wards go on-CD, and to always have a pink ward down, and even then someone bitched about how 'low' my vision score was when it was on-par with the ally team. I wasn't a support, so I had no access to more vision.

I Spread Cancer2 votes

I just reviewed your profile. You ward barely more barely more than a silver. If you're suppose with spelltheif you should complete your quest by 5-6 minutes and take down a lot of enemy ward. You could you ward a lot on your main Glacial Ahri support, but for a ingenious hunter user you still ward way less.

I remember the specific reason they nerfed vision is because people would spam it instead to place them at optimal place and there was no risk taken at all. By the way you talk, you don't take any risk, that's not how you play league.

Inari Fox Orrion1 votes

I like how you're trying to invalidate my point based on my own experience with warding. If I ward more than everyone else in a match, that's my goal. I'm just here to say that the lack of vision even when it's """plentiful""" is the source of junglers' misery.

I wonder if you've ever thought that a lower # of wards placed and a higher vision-score is indicative of someone placing wards in a useful spot, like... say... the enemy jungler's blue or red bush. It just sits there for a while until they take their blue. I can't do anything about my jungler ignoring the opening, I can just hope that they think "Oh, their blue is up and they're Bot but I'm Top..."

If I wanted a higher ward count without it providing any utility, I'd sit in spawn and place wards all game. It's that simple. I can do better with warding (like everyone can) but that certainly isn't why I posted this in the first place. You'll notice my recent jungle matches. You'll understand when you put two and two together: I jungled to understand why and how they feel so weak, and I concluded that part of the source was the current vision woes, hence the clear nerfs and the scuttlecrab to further divide the EXP up.

6 minutes? From minute 0 (which isn't possible but w/e) and proc it every ten seconds. 60 divided by 10 is 6, 6 multiplied by 11 is 66. That's one minute, for 66 gold, plus 120 from ambient. Best case is, 186 gold at minute 1. 372 at minute 2. 558 at minute 3, which is when you upgrade it and the passive gold goes from 66 to 132. By minute 3, you have around 198 gold for the quest, right? Add an extra 30 for the passive GP5 (66 + 66 + 66 + 30) which leaves you at 228. 132 + 132 + the extra GP5 (20) and you'll have it done at 5 minutes. This does not account for the first minute-and-a-half, nor laners' champions, nor if you have free & safe poke. Lets just say that it's going to be 6:30 minimum, if the enemy laner is a literal target-dummy.

Hyperbole is not smart, my friend. You might want to strive to proc it as often as possible but unless you are hardcore smurfing, you aren't going to be finishing the quest at 6 minutes. Laners return to base. Champions fight back. You need to ward. You need to roam. You sometimes die. There's a reason even Grandmaster streams showcase an average of 9 minutes' quest completion time.

That said... I do need to clear enemy wards more often.

Teriyaki Bukkake2 votes

Yeah but at the moment the jungle is too easy. You farm JG and then look for gank opportunities, but it takes so long for the jungle to come back up, that you can usually clear top, pull two ganks off (extremely lucky situation) and maybe even counter jungle a camp in their jungle, back, go to clear bot after recalling, and be half way through bot before your top camps are coming back up.

It's too easy to choose between farming and ganking for a jungler, because the jungle in terms of farming is pretty forgiving, so the lack of vision only feeds into this gank heavy meta.

Perhaps if the jungle made clearing a more consistent and necessary act, then this lack of vision could be "forgiven" in a gameplay sense? Not sure, but at the moment jungle is a pretty braindead role imo

Theorex3 votes

Duskblade, shouldn't remove wards. That is one of the dumbest mechanics in the god damn game.

Not only is it a DAMAGE item, it is a utility item as well. ON TOP OF THAT. Only one class of champion can realistically use that item. AD Assassins.

If AP Assassins, Bruisers, Fighters, Battlemages. Could all use an item like it. I would be fine with it.

But just by simply having that item, gives you an advantage. A team advantage. Very few items give team advantages that are also damage based.

Duskblade and Redemption are the only ones that give damage and are team based. But at the very least Redemption has a fuck ton of warning time for the damage on enemy team.

nLyHorace2 votes

AP Assassins are better then AD assassins, Bruisers have trinity and DD, mages have zhonyas among other bs, go away with your bs Alot of dumb items

kaijukitten1 votes

{quoted}

AP Assassins are better then AD assassins, Bruisers have trinity and DD, mages have zhonyas among other bs, go away with your bs Alot of dumb items

Yea but none of those items give you the ability to see and one-shot wards. Which I'm pretty sure was their point.

nLyHorace1 votes

It also doesn't give you a 3 sec immunity, 30$ dmg reduction over time, or all this other ish, all items do different things. People just complaining about dumb things zzz

kaijukitten1 votes

{quoted}

It also doesn't give you a 3 sec immunity, 30$ dmg reduction over time, or all this other ish, all items do different things. People just complaining about dumb things zzz

I wouldn't say it's a dumb thing, vision has already been severely nerfed with the cooldowns and short duration, so an enemy jungle being able to easily spot and one-shot wards makes a big difference on playstyle. You might as well not even ward if they can be found and taken down so easily.

vyoda4 votes

item 2050 was actually removed from the game, but overall informative post

[poppy-wink]

General Esdeath 4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitsuné Orrion,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iExEfluc,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-07-11T15:48:49.235+0000)

Vision. That's the simplest answer. The problem with being ganked at low levels is that you have been slowly removing the counterplay, Riot. Pink wards are useless if you don't have complete lane dominance. Popping one down is a free 30g for the enemy team. The basic warding trinket has a CD that's thrice the duration of the ward itself, meaning -- using Bot as the best example -- you can be aware for the first three minutes of the game and then you'll need to be playing like a bitch under tower or to the rightmost side of the lane (not that it helps against champions like Sejuani) for the next nine minutes. Nine. I'll have my finished support item before I can place another ward.

Now imagine how it feels top lane, where there aren't 2 champions

SgtAwesomeness4 votes

Honestly? I used clairvoyance when it was around, if someone went missing I'd give em a peek.

Troll for Trump4 votes

"oh he was pathing top, you should've played safer" So Everytime I don't have vision on jg:

  • After I see them mid *After I see them bit
  • When our botside jg respawns
  • When our jgl paths not

I should play safe? Aight, guess I "have to" play safe for 60-70% if laning phase. And Everytime they make a crappy play that should be punished? If jgl comes, "you should've predicted that". Nice one. They get to play terribly but get away with it due to jg presence, but I can't do anything other than play safe because our jg is eve/yi/udyr, or botside or smth.

Jglers like to complain about laners dying, but most of those deaths are attributed to jgl or roam ganks

Beerstein4 votes

Easy fix, give junglers the green jg item back with wards. If they choose to not use it, you can blame JG instead of Riot. (As a JG I miss using it)

FSRER4 votes

And nerf Lee'sin the same patch they are brought back.

5050BS1 votes

Jax too

Daddy Ants1 votes

{quoted}

Easy fix, give junglers the green jg item back with wards. If they choose to not use it, you can blame JG instead of Riot. (As a JG I miss using it)

If they undo some of the lee sin buffs he received after that item disappeared then sure,

Dotty LB4 votes

Before with the old green wards as well it helped drive down gold income as well while at the same time making farming junglers a viable option.

Ephixus4 votes

Junglers game deciders?

They kept nerfing XP more and more, what the fk are u talking about?

Soon we will have to AFK farm 15 mins to reach lvl 6 and die to a mid laner who is 5 lvls ahead.

Although wards (trinkets) are free along all game.

SEKAI4 votes

Riot doesn't give a shit.

They will keep balancing the game as if the players on the team are 5 cooperative and coordinated players synergising on mics. The ward would be barely just enough for them, and what, you solo queue every day players? Well sucks to be you.

Sure the old days when enemies get ahead meant that they would ward the entire map and you basically just sat in base waiting to lose. But the current stage where no one has vision is just the far extreme on the other end and needless to say it's still trouble.

Jinzo Torrance3 votes

Add back Clairvoyance /s

Reaper Soraka2 votes

swear to god I would take it.

And I would Nidalee support again.

pseudo dionysius3 votes

I wouldn't mind having old wards back.

Rit0 is SJW2 votes

If you're going to improve vision in the game, make ganking more possible at lower levels.

5050BS2 votes

lvl 1 (lvl 2 by junglers) is a common thing and its stupid

Mitsuk32 votes

I understood nothing .

huhndog2 votes

There was too much vision back in s7 w/ sightstone and trackers knife . Instead of completely removing them, rito should've lowered the amount of wards granted by them

Voluug132 votes

I think a biggest issue is that right now the junglers with best ganks (ganks that can even outright bypass warding thanks to mobility) are the ones that also have great or best clear time/safety.

We couldnt need all those jungle exp nerfs (that hurt like 80% of jg champion pool) if they actually nerfed ladder meta junglers for once that have insane ganks at level 2-3 and the safety/speed to do so constantly.

season10balanced2 votes

Pls upvote this we need more vision item 2050

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