The goal of a nerf is to balance the game.

Raptamei·Feb 25, 2015·38 votes·2,129 views

are no longer champions in League of Legends. (You could add with 45% winrate and whose intended build is no longer viable and who has 46% winrate, but at least people hate them enough to perhaps justify it)

The intention of a nerf is to balance the champion. But anything Riot touches becomes an unplayable, worthless, garbage waste of tons of people's time and skin money. Yes, people invest real money into their champions, only to have them rendered reportable offences. Meanwhile is healthy, gets buffed into the stratosphere and is "under close scrutiny" despite being the best or second best jungler for 2 years now.

Riot WTF.

44 Comments

RaptameiFeb 25, 201513 votes

I forgot XinZhao still has The Bug and Syndra still has hitbox problems. I bet if Lee Sin's second Q didn't work, he'd be disabled and hotfixed.

JunkοFeb 26, 20152 votes

Xin Q now works properly. Syndra hitbox is still shit though, i really doubt they touched it.

Malix FarwinFeb 26, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I forgot still has The Bug and still has hitbox problems. I bet if Lee Sin's second Q didn't work, he'd be disabled and hotfixed.

nah they would never disable Lee Sin. They would instead bring the server down to fix the problem.

Immortal StrifeFeb 25, 20157 votes

You forgot Gragas, he was my main mid :(

thinking manFeb 25, 201511 votes

[{quoted}](name=Immortal Strife,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iAQEmQwp,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-02-25T22:22:28.789+0000)

You forgot Gragas, he was my main mid :(

Old AP Gragas needed to go very badly.

New Gragas was faceroll and a bit overtuned, but I think the thing that hit him too hard was the reduced damage to minions.

RaptameiFeb 25, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Old AP Gragas needed to go very badly.

No, he didn't.

thinking manFeb 25, 201510 votes

{quoted}

No, he didn't.

He needed a lot of tuning then because getting one-shotted by QR isn't exactly healthy.

I think his old W/Q (minus the damage) was actually better for a tank Gragas kit, but this one is pretty okay for a tank kit aside from being weak.

OrbvFeb 26, 20151 votes

I actually really dislike his new W. For jungling he's actually a weaker jungler early. The surprise burst on the first auto is nice, but he's basically the disengage Sejuani, with less damage but more sustain.

thinking manFeb 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I actually really dislike his new W. For jungling he's actually a weaker jungler early. The surprise burst on the first auto is nice, but he's basically the disengage Sejuani, with less damage but more sustain.

his new W is really OP as far as power budget

OrbvFeb 26, 20151 votes

How so? It does do great damage early, but he just seems a lot worse than Sej.

His E is a stun, affected by tenacity. While Sej's Q has a knock-up.

Grag W starts at 8% health, while her's starts at 4% (huge difference), but they both end up at 12% at rank 5, hers still doing AoE.

Grag's Q is a slow, Sej E is a slow (no comparison otherwise)

Then Grag has a game shattering engage or disengage that could go awry. Sej is far more reliable with higher scaling

His damage reduction and health regen separate him in the long term if he has time to regen. But Sej gets the resistances immediately, and also generally scales with health and AP. She does more damage and remains tanky for longer periods of time. I think he has more allowed in his budget.

thinking manFeb 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

How so? It does do great damage early, but he just seems a lot worse than Sej.

His E is a stun, affected by tenacity. While Sej's Q has a knock-up.

Grag W starts at 8% health, while her's starts at 4% (huge difference), but they both end up at 12% at rank 5, hers still doing AoE.

Grag's Q is a slow, Sej E is a slow (no comparison otherwise)

Then Grag has a game shattering engage or disengage that could go awry. Sej is far more reliable with higher scaling

His damage reduction and health regen separate him in the long term if he has time to regen. But Sej gets the resistances immediately, and also generally scales with health and AP. She does more damage and remains tanky for longer periods of time. I think he has more allowed in his budget.

The mana restore is far greater far more quickly and the burst from it is a lot stronger on Kassadin than the sustained damage from the old one. It's only ever weaker in lane.

shit you were talking about gragas and I thought you were talking about kass

ya his new w's a bit weaker

Malix FarwinFeb 26, 20151 votes

old gragas was tanky with insane damage and burst. Yes he needed to go...

Toru ItaiFeb 25, 20157 votes

QQ what about my WW? Warwick

JunkοFeb 26, 20157 votes

despite being the best or second best jungler for 2 years now.

4 years*

Mal the RedFeb 25, 20154 votes

Do you really think Veigar was nerfed? You poor poor simpleton.

Mal the RedFeb 25, 20154 votes

Downvote me all you will you won't make me wrong.

Knight SoIaire Feb 25, 20155 votes

he wasnt nerfed, he was changed thats just a diferent thing but it seems to have the same effect as op mentioned

revliledpembrokeFeb 26, 201510 votes

No, you're right. It's the facts that make you wrong. Any delay on the stun is a nerf.

Mal the RedFeb 26, 20151 votes

Delay the stun yes but the other three abilites are stronger than ever. Do you noobs even PLAY Veigar?

revliledpembrokeFeb 26, 20153 votes

Yes, I played him in a custom bot game, and while the q skillshot changes made it much easier to farm, even the freaking beginner bots could dodge the stun, making the w nigh worthless. And his ult ratio was reduced, that's a nerf.

Mal the RedFeb 26, 20151 votes

W and R have lower mana costs and cooldowns. Even if the R damage was very slightly nerfed.

And seriously? Bots? You're gonna tell me that you're using Bots to gauge the worth of skills?

Bots don't have the kind of readability that human players do.

New Veigar has more potent Zone control. If they try to dodge Event Horizon, place Dark Matter where they're moving to. They can take the Damage, the stun, or if they panic, BOTH.

It's that simple.

OrbvFeb 26, 20152 votes

Having played him/vs him pvp 4 times, I can say that he DOES NOT have "MORE" Zone Control. Everything you said was applicable before regarding, Dodge Event Horizon, but get hit by Dark matter"...

Dark Matter, if placed in the center of Event Horizon, will not hit anything at it's corners. That being said, if it is placed off center, there is definitely a safe spot that the enemy can walk to. And because Veigar needs to pause and take .25sec cast time and .75 animation time, that's a whole second that someone can see veigar is getting aggressive, and back up.

A champion with a 850 Range Q will never need to get within a smaller range for any reason post lvl 6...unless he's aiming to kill you. It's VERY obvious when he is aiming to kill you. Also he no longer can flash event horizon. He will almost always lose to annie early now.

Mal the RedFeb 27, 20151 votes

Event Horizon got a buff in casting range, mana cost, and cooldown.

Dark Matter still maintains it's role as "don't stand here or get hurt bad" area designator, even more so with the mana cost and cooldown buffs.

And because Baleful Strike is now a skillshot it's another thing opponents will try to dodge.

revliledpembrokeFeb 27, 20152 votes

Wut? I said the bots could dodge the stun, thus making it far more likely the intelligent, human players will as well. Old Veigar could stun the bots every time they were in range. Now, half the time, the bots dodge.

Mal the RedFeb 27, 20151 votes

Bots and Humans are very different opponents that make for very different situations.

Using them for your argument does not help your case.

revliledpembrokeFeb 27, 20152 votes

Yes, they are very different. However, we can both agree that the bots are stupid, correct? If the bots are stupid, and THEY dodge the stun easily, that means a human player can dodge the stun even better. My argument is if the kid with the IQ of five can figure out that 2 and 2=4, than the Doctoral Engineering student should be able to as well.

Mal the RedFeb 27, 20151 votes

Bot intelligence and human intelligence is an Apples/Oranges argument.

You CANNOT compare them AT ALL and retain your arguments integrity, humans become blind to certain things bots don't and vice-versa.

A human too busy farming might not see an indicator, a bot can't. A human can lag and not be able to do anything about a situation, a bot can't.

Bots can be stupid, yes. But so can humans.

revliledpembrokeFeb 27, 20152 votes

But I shouldn't have to rely on my opponent's tunnel vision or thier lag to land my stun and W.

Yulen XoshxiusFeb 27, 20152 votes

I fought a human tank as fiddlesticks, and I just kept spamming the drain on him, and healed through his damage. He didn't try to run or anything, but the computer would have run.

But aside that: there is sadly not a reliable number of players this dumb/out of it.

Malix FarwinFeb 26, 20153 votes

You make yourself wrong. Cant exactly say the change to veigar wasnt a nerf when it make 1 of his abilities completely useless(W)

JunkοFeb 26, 20156 votes

0.75 delay on E that a Cho'gath with no boots can walk out of. No longer able to hit W. -20% ratio on ult

Yep didn't get nerfed

TrídentFeb 27, 20151 votes

totally. And the delay actually adds up to 1.25 seconds, not just .75 item 3070

Kowe The EwokMar 1, 20152 votes

Only an idiot can deny a 15% drop in winrate.

Mal the RedMar 1, 20151 votes

Only an idiot can look at Win Rate with the kind of tunnel vision you'd expect a Bronze player to have.

Win Rate is based on a combination of factors, or do you really think players can adapt to change instantaneously?

Meep ManFeb 26, 20153 votes

The champions dont become garbage they just become considerably weaker than 1-3 champions that are dominating a lane.

RaptameiFeb 26, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iAQEmQwp,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-02-26T18:56:51.448+0000)

The champions dont become garbage they just become considerably weaker than 1-3 champions that are dominating a lane.

Weaker than the best = not viable, because why not pick the best instead?

ForgiveColourFeb 25, 20152 votes

the fact that you leftthese out JarvanIV Katarina Leblanc Lissandra Nidalee RekSai prob means you play in a shit elo

Knight SoIaire Feb 25, 20151 votes

those arent such a hot topic for riot to actualy say much about them

ForgiveColourFeb 25, 20152 votes

are you stupid?

PartholonianFeb 26, 20152 votes

{quoted}

But anything Riot touches becomes an unplayable, worthless, garbage waste of tons of people's time and skin money.

In the minds of forum whiners, certainly.

Have you seen any of those "reportable offences" given away in nemesis draft? I did see Azir, and gave him once myself, because he's really hard to play if you don't know him well. But if you happened to give him to someone who actually DID know him, he wrecked. All of those other "overnerfed, terrible" champions would never be given away because they're not actually weak.

Instead, they're "unplayable" because they ARE balanced. Why play a balanced champion when you can play an OP one? With 120 champions in the game, there's bound to be some and they make the balanced champions unattractive by comparison. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't be nerfed down to balanced (read: "unplayable") levels.

The goal of a nerf is to balance the game. The goal of champion select is to unbalance it in your favor. That's why players and Riot are so often at cross-purposes -- most players literally don't want to play balanced champions, so when a champion is balanced, players don't want to play them.

P.S. They probably should do something about LeeSin and if they're going to leave mana items in the current state of being weakest when you need them most (i.e. early game), Zed . But you know if they did, there would be even more nerf whine threads about how those champions are now garbage.

RaptameiFeb 26, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I did see Azir, and gave him once myself, because he's really hard to play if you don't know him well. But if you happened to give him to someone who actually DID know him, he wrecked. All of those other "overnerfed, terrible" champions would never be given away because they're not actually weak.

Azir 38.78% winrate in solo queue. If you pick him, you're pretty much 15% more likely to lose than if you pick Kat instead. That IS useless.

The goal of a nerf is to balance the game. The goal of champion select is to unbalance it in your favor. That's why players and Riot are so often at cross-purposes -- most players literally don't want to play balanced champions, so when a champion is balanced, players don't want to play them.

There is NO reason not to pick the best champion. At least Dota has multiple metas so "the best hero" depends on what your team and their team are doing. Not so in League. The game offers you a choice between Jarvan and Eve, but Jarvan is better and the choice requires the same effort in both cases. So there is 0 reason not to pick the best champions.