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So for the longest time I have hated the vayne QQ on this forum

Chuck Charles··31 votes·2,584 views

but...I just went a game vayne support. 9/0/21 masteries. I built no dmg items and only two attack speed items (shiv/pd) i got zerker greaves and i got a sightstone and what not. with significantly less gold than enemy kalista, I could not only 1 v1 her, but melt her in a matter of moments with ulti and condemn into wall. the true damage just cut through her like butter and the AD steroid from the ult was more than enough with my insane attack speed scaling. I had no gold. I want to say I had 4k less gold. If i landed a condemn on any one person they were dead. and even if I didn't I was able to kite here and there. granted, vayne support was trash and didn't offer much...but I only went vayne support to see if she was still strong with no gold. maybe starting to see why people think she is so strong. I mean I've never had a problem beating vayne in lane personally, but I can see why people are annoyed with her right now.

remember, I am not advocating that vayne support is viable. It was terrible and when ganks happened I offered next to nothing. sure in lane you can harass decently but overall the only reason I went vayne was just to see how strong she is with next to no gold income.

48 Comments

The Sword Saint5 votes

Cool story, and I once 100-0 a kalista as full build ap leona. Clearly this means leona is too strong.

Chuck Charles2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Sword Saint,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i3BE5yfl,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-09-24T05:22:02.238+0000)

Cool story, and I once 100-0 a kalista as full build ap leona. Clearly this means leona is too strong.

huehue i get your point man, but big difference between building full ap and one shotting someone before they can react and being able to auto attack someone to death as a support with 4 to 5k less gold than their carry.

SorryBoysImLes30 votes

Wait; you had 6 full items, full AP (damage), on a character with decent AP (damage) scalings and did...damage?

NO WAY.

Because that relates to an ADC posing as a support, building no damage items, and still being able to duel and beat a dedicated counter-part ADC who DID build damage.

Chuck Charles6 votes

{quoted}

Wait; you had 6 full items, full AP (damage), on a character with decent AP (damage) scalings and did...damage?

NO WAY.

Because that relates to an ADC posing as a support, building no damage items, and still being able to duel and beat a dedicated counter-part ADC who DID build damage.

This is basically what I feel is the problem. I linking my match history. now I intentionally built like ass. I gave vayne zero damage while giving her bullshit tank items for the hell of it. because why not? i have true damage. the point of the experiment so far is to see if I can be a major threat with no gold and no damage items built. because if I am that would mean vayne's kit is probably overtuned. so far I have yet to have a game where I go positive, but in most games I have been heavily focused as well despite being the support. In my last game I was able to 1 v 1 chase down the shen with my ultimate late game and help seal a baron because of it.

http://s18.postimg.org/44rvg2owp/Screen_Shot_2015_09_24_at_12_27_15_AM.png

darkmatchwaldo3 votes

yo imma have to try this right now

BestTristMyHaus2 votes

I just want to note that of the five games posted, you lost 1. One which (of course) had ANOTHER Vayne. (In all of your wins, the enemy (obviously) did not have a Vayne)

Hyrum Graff7 votes

{quoted}

Wait; you had 6 full items, full AP (damage), on a character with decent AP (damage) scalings and did...damage?

NO WAY.

Because that relates to an ADC posing as a support, building no damage items, and still being able to duel and beat a dedicated counter-part ADC who DID build damage.

> item 3087 item 3046 item 3006 > No damage items

No AD, maybe, but I don't really buy "no damage items."

Celeste Benal1 votes

Something something... stuns all day... something ranged gap closing engage... something something... tanky as shit.... something something, hard CC....

Stephenizgod1 votes

How is this the same thing? Seriously no one knows how to compare two things anymore... of course full build AP Leona can 100-0 Kalista, support Leona can 100-50 a Kalista with just one rotation of her kit.

HentRex5 votes

Played Taric 1V1'd a 4-0 diana with nothing but sightstone and chainmail. Taric nerfs incoming? Honestly just trying to brag. I think the reason for your, and my, success here were bad enemies more that likely. Is Vayne strong atm? Yes, but that's more so meta shifted to juggernauts and she's one of the few able to deal with them.

Tails Doll2 votes

She was strong before Jugg mess happen.

HentRex1 votes

She still can be. She'd already used her shield ability on the zed that barely got away when i walked in. Then missed her ability that marks me and ulted in anyways. So I aa w aa e aa r aa q, zed came up tossed a shuriken got the ks. I walked away going from 3/4 hp to 1/8.

WaruMonzae4 votes

Yeah there is a reason i say gut the base damage and leave it just as a percent. the base damage alone is strong against squishys and adds a lot of damage alone against a tank. Atleast if its just a percent you will be able to shread tanks but not completely destroy a squishy with base true damage.

Jari1 votes

Another thing too to add to it. Doing this will not destroy her identity, since she's meant to be a tank shredder that can do it from a distance. The reason why the base needs to be looked at is because, % wise, a squishy takes more % damage than a tank does.

It'd at least mean she can't just max it first if the enemy is two squishies.

LadyRenly3 votes

how the hell did you not get wrecked?

Sorry, but you got dominated a casual kalista it seems. one game is just anecdotal evidence

Chuck Charles2 votes

{quoted}

how the hell did you not get wrecked?

Sorry, but you got dominated a casual kalista it seems. one game is just anecdotal evidence

I agree, it could just be an anomaly. Im going to try a bunch of troll shit out in normals and see if i keep winning. just won a game as tank support vayne with a janna as my adc who also built support. my kda in both games so far has been pretty bad, but the amount of focus I get is quite high as vayne and so far has allowed my teammates to do whatever they want.

Sona Ping4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chuck Charles,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i3BE5yfl,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-09-24T04:54:09.581+0000)

but the amount of focus I get is quite high as vayne and so far has allowed my teammates to do whatever they want.

So... the reason you won isn't because of Vayne, but because your enemies played really dumb?

HeadHonchkrow5 votes

Possibly.

Tails Doll1 votes

Yes you can see how in most games he got carried.

Chuck Charles1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tails Doll,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i3BE5yfl,comment-id=0001000000000001,timestamp=2015-09-25T00:54:26.718+0000)

Yes you can see how in most games he got carried.

you are missing the point. my point is not trying to make that support vayne is viable. I am not saying I am a great vayne. or that you can carry as support vayne. the point is that even with troll builds, no gold income, and piss poor play (I am a bad vayne) I am still a major threat solely because I picked vayne. and while I have hated the QQ of vayne on this forum. that I can do this and still win a lot of my games is kind of sad. because I'm NOT playing well. I'm playing pretty poorly and still have a decent chance of winning. I'm not useless even when I should be.

Any other ADC...if you go 0/5 in lane, you are useless. you are garbage. you offer NOTHING to your team. Vayne does not have this problem.

Loken Stoneheart3 votes

Its like they nerfed Kalista to do 10% less damage than every other ADC because Kalista's kit overall is overloaded and bullshit, so she isn't really that hard to bully around if she actually tries to fight you instead of doing what she's good at-- running away at mach speeds.

Shonjl4 votes

To be fair, 10% isn't anything fancy. Ohh no other adcs hit 50s at the start of the game while I hit 45s. Ohh no by end game they are hitting like 300s and critting for like 700, I only do 270 and 630. It really is not a big difference in the grand scheme of things. You rarely are gonna lose a fight due to 5 damage early game or 30-70 at late game.

The Sword Saint4 votes

It's the equivalent of everyone having ninja tabi against you from level 1.

Tails Doll1 votes

Ninja tabi also gives armor, so not really.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

{quoted}

To be fair, 10% isn't anything fancy. Ohh no other adcs hit 50s at the start of the game while I hit 45s. Ohh no by end game they are hitting like 300s and critting for like 700, I only do 270 and 630. It really is not a big difference in the grand scheme of things. You rarely are gonna lose a fight due to 5 damage early game or 30-70 at late game.

I think you underestimate how big of a deal 5 damage early game / 70 damage late game is.

5 damage is a little bit more than two flat AD quints. Try playing a game with fewer ad marks/quints, and see what it feels like.

Shonjl1 votes

I have, until only recently, I didnt even have runes PERIOD, and I was still doing fairly well if not winning against people that had them as ADC. Are you at a disadvantage? Yes, but not a huge one.

I know their power, but like I said, at the end of the day, its not really changing much. By late game, you aren't just barely killing someone usually as an adc, you are usually overkilling them. When I kill someone, it isn't like I am hitting them for 300 when they only have 295 left. Its more like they have like 100 left and hitting them for 300. So that -10% isn't a big issue, not to mention Kalista gets past it by building more AS.

Amélie Cauchemar3 votes

You can build anything on Vayne and still top damage charts honestly.

item 3153 item 3165 item 3115 item 3020 item 3050 item 3748

Guarantee you'll still kill just about anyone.

Chuck Charles3 votes

{quoted}

You can build anything on Vayne and still top damage charts honestly.

item 3153 item 3165 item 3115 item 3020 item 3050 item 3748

Guarantee you'll still kill just about anyone.

just for fun I'll try that build for you. because why the fuck not. might need to swap out the nomicon for a sightstone though as I will be support.

Amélie Cauchemar1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chuck Charles,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i3BE5yfl,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2015-09-24T07:36:54.163+0000)

just for fun I'll try that build for you. because why the fuck not. might need to swap out the nomicon for a sightstone though as I will be support.

ok

Chuck Charles1 votes

{quoted}

ok

well I did your suggested build. we lost but despite feeding in lane and going 0/5 early on I was able to 1 v 1 and single handedly take out their fed veigar for the last baron fight with just a nashors tooth, sorc boots, and botrk. It was a pretty terrible build as expected, but could still melt people. I kind of want a better vayne to try this. because I honestly don't play that much vayne and I feel like if I was better at positioning as such as such a short range carry I could still do work. I might hit up my diamond 2 friend who mains vayne and him duo with me for a game or two trying shit like this.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chuck Charles,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i3BE5yfl,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2015-09-24T07:36:54.163+0000)

just for fun I'll try that build for you. because why the fuck not. might need to swap out the nomicon for a sightstone though as I will be support.

No, nomnom is core to that build, so you get 40% cdr and GW. Swap out the titanic.

AzureInTheDark2 votes

Oh no, you beat a squishy ADC with another ADC that scales great with crit and attack speed. Clearly OP.

Kingopants2 votes

It makes sense you know, Vayne gains a TON of gold per level based on the stats she gets. And with the whole percent true damage that scales based on level (Opposed to AD/AP scaling) it wouldn't be too hard to just end up with a lot of damage.

Bard in a Diaper2 votes

had shiv/pd/sightstone/zerkers

had no gold

uh no

kalistas ultimate is an AOE save/knockup she is terrible 1v1 if you arent easily kitable. You had more then enough items to kill a squishy

CISTERN1 votes

Yeah, vayne's kit is k(not broken), but vayne is too powerfull, her damage is the problem, not her kit

FistOfSharkiesha1 votes

I mean she's the only ADC that isn't item reliant with her massive AD steroid and true damage that's saying something.

Chaotic Reks1 votes

full tank vayne cancer incoming

Silents4291 votes

I don't see this game in your match history anywhere, would you mind linking it? Because no doubt you are either lieing or their is more to this then you are caring to reveal.

I only see 2 Vayne games from the summer, and you lost both of them.

Chuck Charles1 votes

{quoted}

I don't see this game in your match history anywhere, would you mind linking it? Because no doubt you are either lieing or their is more to this then you are caring to reveal.

I only see 2 Vayne games from the summer, and you lost both of them.

I posted a picture of my match history earlier in one of my posts. In ranked I lost both my vayne games yes. I dont even know if i have played vayne in ranked. but if i did i probably lost. i am a TRASH vayne player. I am currently testing this out in normals.

and as for saying having shiv/pd/sighstone/zerkers is NOT having no gold. comparatively thats about 7k gold to someone who probably has 11k to 12k gold at that point in the game.

Silents4291 votes

Well checking for that picture, I don't see this 9/0 Vayne game, I see 4 attempts at Vayne support where you didn't do that well, and 1 game where you went 8/10 which can easily be a fluke. After all 1/5 games you did well as Vayne without "damage" items.

(attack speed is still a damage item on a DPS character)

I still want a link to the game, because a picture does very little in gaining context on what occurred.

Chuck Charles1 votes

{quoted}

Well checking for that picture, I don't see this 9/0 Vayne game, I see 4 attempts at Vayne support where you didn't do that well, and 1 game where you went 8/10 which can easily be a fluke. After all 1/5 games you did well as Vayne without "damage" items.

(attack speed is still a damage item on a DPS character)

I still want a link to the game, because a picture does very little in gaining context on what occurred.

I had 9/0/21 masteries...not 9/0/21 score. read the post please. also, vayne support is bad. I am not suggesting the vayne support is viable. i have said this a thousand times. that is NOT the point of this thread or discussion I started. I just wanted to put myself deliberately into a bad spot for me and my team where we are at a distinct disadvantage and see if despite that fact that I am not only out of position, building horribly, and have low gold income, am I still be able to solo people I shouldnt be like the enemy adc? I'm simply test if her kit is as "overloaded" as the QQ on this forum makes it feel. I feel by putting myself in deliberately terrible scenarios I will see if it is truly just the kit that is overloaded.

Silents4292 votes

Well my bad, In that case.

Building attack speed on an on hit DPS champion even with a low gold income doesn't change anything or make them overpowered. I don't believe you called her such but your post is fueling that fire anyway.

It especially means less when the games weren't even that successful, in comparison to a normal ADC build.

Chuck Charles1 votes

{quoted}

Well my bad, In that case.

Building attack speed on an on hit DPS champion even with a low gold income doesn't change anything or make them overpowered. I don't believe you called her such but your post is fueling that fire anyway.

It especially means less when the games weren't even that successful, in comparison to a normal ADC build.

not overpowered, but overloaded kit MAYBE. i havent tried this enough and im still working on if there is a bare minimum build path that will make her ridiculous with no gold. it might just be a string of fluky games against bad people but thats why I keep testing it. Its just for fun anyway.

Is vayne op? even my tests won't say for sure, but I'm starting to see why people hate vayne more and more. i mean the things I can do as a BAD vayne player in these games is pretty absurd.

Stephenizgod1 votes

Played with a Vayne Jungle, when i saw he was building only tank i asked him "what are you building?" his response was "Vayne does True Damage i dont need damage". Sure enough not only could he melt anyone he also didnt freaking die... ended up carrying us hard, every lane he went to ended with him getting a kill.

So is Vayne OP? Probably... yes

LaserDeathBlade1 votes

And then you realize you could've done the same thing with Annie/Vel Koz/LB/Zed/Yasuo/Irelia/Jax whatever 'support', it doesn't take much to kill an ADC

The point of a Support is to provide utility that a team would otherwise lack because like all good things in life you get diminishing returns on stacking more damage in a team comp, but obviously in solo queue it doesn't really matter because as Dunkey put it, 'solo queue is 3 decent players and 7 retards.'

Chuck Charles1 votes

{quoted}

And then you realize you could've done the same thing with Annie/Vel Koz/LB/Zed/Yasuo/Irelia/Jax whatever 'support', it doesn't take much to kill an ADC

The point of a Support is to provide utility that a team would otherwise lack because like all good things in life you get diminishing returns on stacking more damage in a team comp, but obviously in solo queue it doesn't really matter because as Dunkey put it, 'solo queue is 3 decent players and 7 retards.'

does anybody read the actual post. dude. i said this isnt about vayne support being good. vayne support is trash and I have said so multiple times in this thread.

LaserDeathBlade1 votes

And my response wasn't about the fact that you were support, it's the fact that almost assassin can 1v1 a squishy carry even with low income

The design of the game involves comebacks, if gold lead were truly the only determining factor in fights then nobody would play League.

Vicarious1171 votes

I have a friend who's been going top Vayne, build botrk and zerker greaves, then FULL TANK. No one can 1v1 him and he out damages everything while just waltzing into the enemy back line to 100-0 the enemy carry on his own. Even focused cc doesn't always work cause of all the tank stats.

He hasn't done it in ranked, albeit, but so far in normals he's dominated nearly every single game as full tank Vayne.

She needs to be straight up nerfed, make her early game bad again, like it's supposed to be but isn't, so she can be bullied by early game adcs who don't have her stupid OP late game. Instead of her being able to go toe to toe with most other early game adcs but still having her stupid late game.... I mean that's only fair. That or nerf her late game so she can't fuck everything up while being 0-9-2 with enough peel.

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