Ok Ill finally admit it, Lee Sin is a bit much right now

Chuck Charles·Jan 3, 2016·70 votes·5,714 views

I feel no problems with his "overloaded" kit that people complain about. my issue I've noticed every game is that his raw damage is simply overtuned. while I'm ok with an early game jungler being strong early and having utility, what feels overbearing right now is that he can oneshot just about anyone with only two dmg items and the rest of his kit can be full tank/utility. With the jungle item and maybe a ghostblade or cleaver you are basically donezos. not sure if ghostblade is simply too strong now or its Lee sin, but too often do I see him assassinating carries and fast as hell while being somewhat tanky. It just feels oppressive as his early game is good, and now his mid and late are good because he can still assassinate someone. meh.

92 Comments

Robbit MangJan 3, 201615 votes

200% bonus ad scaling

if lee takes 15 AD from runes, then 60 from warrior and another 65 from ghostblade

thats around 280 bonus damage from just two items.

with rank 1 ult that alone does 480 damage, rank 2 680. rank 3 880

The horrors of a full ad lee sin with 300+ attack damage. Q R Q E hydra = 2500 damage burst and you're literally dead instantly

RalanrJan 3, 201610 votes

And it turns you into a missle that hurts allies if you collide with them.

What. The. Fuck?

Auz the RipperJan 4, 20161 votes

Actually, it won't turn corpses into deadly projectiles.

Lee sin has to be satisfied with only insta-murdering one person.

RalanrJan 4, 20161 votes

Or kicks the tank into the squishy.

IGotScuttleCrabsJan 4, 20161 votes

Don't forget when your ally knocks into you you're displaced (knocked up/back/channel interrupted)

AhristocatsJan 4, 20167 votes

[{quoted}](name=Robbit Mang,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fTX8cPEL,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-01-03T16:23:46.600+0000)

200% bonus ad scaling

if lee takes 15 AD from runes, then 60 from warrior and another 65 from ghostblade

thats around 280 bonus damage from just two items.

with rank 1 ult that alone does 480 damage, rank 2 680. rank 3 880

The horrors of a full ad lee sin with 300+ attack damage. Q R Q E hydra = 2500 damage burst and you're literally dead instantly

the base damage should be tunned down to force lee to build AD

beside, CAN PEOPLE REALISE that his ulti has 2 mini-stun and asks riot to remove them? one applied in the begining of the kick and an other applied in the end.

I GANK LANESJan 4, 20161 votes

great. and he can be blown up just as easily and he's melee

The Yetii RiderJan 3, 201610 votes

Lee Sin's damage isn't the problem. He's an assassin, just like all the other assassins. He should be able to burst you down if he builds damage, that's what assassins do.

Lee Sin's issue is simply that there's no way to starve him out like other assassins.

Ganking is getting stronger and stronger as the seasons go on. Warrior gives more AD and immobile ADCs like MF and Kog are being played again, which is just a feeding ground for him. You can't steal his jungle to deny him gold, he has free vision on his AD SIGHTSTONE and he's going to invade you early and slow YOU down so that you can't get farmed up in time to duel him mid game.

Lee Sin is an early game, feast or famine assassin with huge utility and mobility. He just does not have a weakness to exploit. His damage is not the problem, if anything it's nice to see him behaving more like an assassin and less like a fighter this season.

MohawkBirdJan 3, 201627 votes

[deleted]

RetillinJan 3, 20169 votes

But he is an "assassin", at least that is what Riot has him listed as.

His problem is, he's too good at ANY role you wish to play him. He has no weakness.

Tails DollJan 3, 20164 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXxcpaCr1hw

You all thought it was a joke didnt you?!

HighH1Jan 4, 20163 votes

lol, Phreak foreshadowing played off as just a joke

AuroramancerJan 3, 20164 votes

His play pattern is assassin-like, but his ratios are not healthy for an assassin play pattern.

Best princess EUJan 4, 20168 votes

{quoted}

His play pattern is assassin-like, but his ratios are not healthy for an assassin play pattern.

his play pattern is assassin-like, and tha'ts why he has a strong AD ratio

the problem is his utility+his mobility, combined with high base damage.

none knows yet, but his 2 mini stuns on his ulti make the spell broken af

The Yetii RiderJan 3, 20161 votes

{quoted}

He must be the first assassin than to build that many tank items and still see success in his burst.

Not really. Ekko, Kha'Zix, Akali, Elise and Rengar have all been built tanky in the past with little impact on their damage output.

Unlike Lee Sin, most other assassins have such poor scalings that building no damage doesn't hurt them that much. That's why the Last Whisper change destroyed them, penetration is their stat, not damage.

AbyssphereJan 3, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Not really. Ekko, Kha'Zix, Akali, Elise and Rengar have all been built tanky in the past with little impact on their damage output.

Unlike Lee Sin, most other assassins have such poor scalings that building no damage doesn't hurt them that much. That's why the Last Whisper change destroyed them, penetration is their stat, not damage.

They all got nerfed for that, though. Ekko, Kha, Akali and Rengar all have to build somewhat close to full damage to blow people up and even Elise is building more AP right now than she ever has before. If Lee is actually scaling as an assassin late game despite building his standard very tanky build (which isn't something I've seen to be honest, but if it is happening...) then that's a problem, just like it's always been a problem in the past. Elise got gutted for doing damage while being tanky and Akali, Kha'Zix and Ekko all had their tankiness hit/flat out removed.

AekoJan 4, 20161 votes

I dont know. Master yi with deadmans and steraks gage can kill carries in a matter of seconds while still being resilient.

Khada Jhin GDJan 8, 20161 votes

{quoted}

He must be the first assassin than to build that many tank items and still see success in his burst.

Eve, Fiora (new) , irelia, poppy, vi, xin , diana ( Not tanky as the others but still) , these ppl get too much free damn damage. One to 2 damage items they can go tank and just fuck you man.

Bears Dont CareJan 3, 20165 votes

{quoted}

Lee Sin's damage isn't the problem. He's an assassin, just like all the other assassins. He should be able to burst you down if he builds damage, that's what assassins do.

Lee Sin's issue is simply that there's no way to starve him out like other assassins.

Ganking is getting stronger and stronger as the seasons go on. Warrior gives more AD and immobile ADCs like MF and Kog are being played again, which is just a feeding ground for him. You can't steal his jungle to deny him gold, he has free vision on his AD SIGHTSTONE and he's going to invade you early and slow YOU down so that you can't get farmed up in time to duel him mid game.

Lee Sin is an early game, feast or famine assassin with huge utility and mobility. He just does not have a weakness to exploit. His damage is not the problem, if anything it's nice to see him behaving more like an assassin and less like a fighter this season.

He isn't feast or famine. Riven is, Talon can be, warwick can be, but not Lee Sin because he doesn't need kills and items to be useful. His kit in itself makes him relevant throughout all points of the game.

SithesisLordJan 3, 20163 votes

Shyvana summoner 11 summoner 3 - "Oh so the blind monk is coming to invade me and steal my things to try to put me behind? Well, he just became a jungle monster himself for me to farm."

The Yetii RiderJan 3, 20164 votes

{quoted}

- "Oh so the blind monk is coming to invade me and steal my things to try to put me behind? Well, he just became a jungle monster himself for me to farm."

Shyvana is actually pretty difficult to play though, and if she screws up and gives Lee one kill he will go destroy her lanes while she tries to catch up.

FrickendaChickenJan 4, 20161 votes

He does have one major weakness though, and it revolves around one of his strengths.

The Strength: He destroys carries in an unorganized team. He is designed to be able to get behind and opponent and either kill them or place them out of position. Possibly both.

The Weakness: An organized team that understands how to ward effectively against Lee Sin (to the side and behind) and play against him. Meaning that the ABSOLUTE MOMENT he is in range to Q to you, you should be careful, let your team get in the way, let them be a wall. Although his W and Flash can get past this wall, they can stop his combo (which is the source of his damage). If his combo with his Q can be stopped, 50% of his damage from that ability has been stopped. His W was likely used to get to the point he is at, but if not, then he can simply dash to a ward, flash behind the carry, then ult them. BUT SIMPLY BECAUSE HIS Q HAS BEEN STOPPED, he can't get the enemy carry in range of his team. The carry likely has moved back to their team and is in safety. Lee has no counter in his kit to deal with a smart team that uses teamwork.

IGotScuttleCrabsJan 4, 20163 votes

The ward and form a wall around your carries was an effective strat till they buffed his ult. Now kicking the frontline into the backline can be just as effective of a strategy if needed.

MLDzXnRRRJan 3, 20169 votes

His R is too strong.

Dominick DestineJan 3, 20165 votes

It's about Runaterra-ing time more people realized that Lee Sin is absurdly overpowered.

At bare minimum, his movespeed needs to be chunked down to 325 so he is required to use his skills to move around efficiently rather than having huge movement speed on top multiple of low cooldown gap closing mobility skillls and escape mechanisms.... that's on top of being MANALESS. Who TF thought he was balanced with such overpowered kit?

jawd55Jan 3, 20162 votes

I'm not necessarily disagreeing to lee sin being overpowered, but being manaless is not an issue, its actually bad for lee sin. Yes it helps his early game, but imagine that he was a mana champ and his passive worked in a similar fashion as it does now and returned mana on auto attacks. His early game would suffer some but not much and then late game he would be able to spam all of his spells at once without need to auto attack to regain energy l. So be thankful that he's an energy champ or else he'd wreck even harder once mid-late game comes around.

AbyssphereJan 3, 20163 votes

{quoted}

I'm not necessarily disagreeing to lee sin being overpowered, but being manaless is not an issue, its actually bad for lee sin. Yes it helps his early game, but imagine that he was a mana champ and his passive worked in a similar fashion as it does now and returned mana on auto attacks. His early game would suffer some but not much and then late game he would be able to spam all of his spells at once without need to auto attack to regain energy l. So be thankful that he's an energy champ or else he'd wreck even harder once mid-late game comes around.

I've never seen a Lee Sin run out of energy to be honest.

jawd55Jan 4, 20162 votes

That's because they don't tend to straight spam q-q-e-e-w-w. The fact is if a lee sin uses all of his spells he will run out of energy. A problem he could never potentially run into if he was a mana champ. Meaning he could spam q-q-e-e and still have the energy to w away, which he does not have the ability to now, he has to wait, albeit very shortly, for some energy regen to use his w to get away if he spans his other spells without auto attacking for his passive regen. Its a very small difference but it is there.

Baron of BreadJan 4, 20161 votes

Actually being a mana champ would be very punishing for Lee Sin. He wouldn't be able to fish with his Q like he does now since it would likely run him out of mana reasonably quickly. To be able to deal with that he would have to reduce the stats he builds in exchange for a mana item. There would be no dive in and out play because he would run himself out of mana in no time flat.

Meaning he could spam q-q-e-e and still have the energy to w away, which he does not have the ability to now, he has to wait, albeit very shortly, for some energy regen to use his w to get away if he spans his other spells without auto attacking for his passive regen

With mana he could do that very few times before being out of mana. As is, he can do that without waiting for energy regen if he skips out on wasting energy on the second E since it does no damage and provides him no benefit to use immediately.

jawd55Jan 4, 20161 votes

It would punish his early game but imagine that his passive remained similar to how it is now and provided mana return on auto attacks. All it would take is a couple autos and you've barely gone down any mana from where you originally were. That would eliminate the need for a mana item, unless his passive was different. As it is now you can gain back I think all of the resources taken to use a skill. So even if he was mana champ he wouldn't have early game jungle clear issues. He just might have to back after a gank. So early game he wouldn't be able to spam as easy but late game he would be able to without punishment. While the second e doesn't provide much benefit it slows so there is even less ability to follow him than without the second e. I'm not saying that there is huge benefits to the difference. But there wouldn't be huge nerfs either.

Tribbles FoxfolkJan 3, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=C9 TOXlC MID,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fTX8cPEL,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-01-03T12:29:35.913+0000)

I feel no problems with his "overloaded" kit that people complain about. my issue I've noticed every game is that his raw damage is simply overtuned. while I'm ok with an early game jungler being strong early and having utility, what feels overbearing right now is that he can oneshot just about anyone with only two dmg items and the rest of his kit can be full tank/utility. With the jungle item and maybe a ghostblade or cleaver you are basically donezos. not sure if ghostblade is simply too strong now or its Lee sin, but too often do I see him assassinating carries and fast as hell while being somewhat tanky. It just feels oppressive as his early game is good, and now his mid and late are good because he can still assassinate someone. meh.

There's a reason he's one of the single best junglers at least 2 seasons and 3+ preseasons running. His damage comes so far out of his ass that you'd swear his head was empty (probably is cause most Lee Sins are douchebags).

It's disgusting how he's being blatantly untouched in terms of balance when there's a clear problem.

CattCallerJan 3, 20163 votes

The reason for this is that riot has an incredibly biased and unfair interest in keeping him playable through any season they can. He is, in a sense, their poster child for 'flashy plays' and helps keep the competitive scene interesting and entertaining for the viewers. It was proposed once in the past that he would be getting a substantial change to his kit, because at the time he was incredibly oppressive.

The large majority of the players that played Lee Sin during this time were up in arms about it, and the aforementioned god forsaken reason, they chose to not touch him. Since then, there have been countless debates, endless discussions and a plethora of statistics players have given riot, shown opinions and footage proof of the foolhardy they took action with in their inaction.

As long as this game has a competitive scene, a place in E-sports, they will do whatever they can to keep the entertainment going, to keep viewers entertained, and if that means completely ignoring a very glaring deficiency in their balance philosophy, then so be it.

I myself have been playing this game since the early moments of Season 1 and there has not been a single champion who has been favoured in such a reprehensible fashion as Lee Sin has and it will continue to be so as long as he, again I hate to repeat it, keeps viewers entertained and keeps the numbers rising, if not steady for their publicity of their E-sports scene.

MohawkBirdJan 3, 20163 votes

[deleted]

RetillinJan 3, 20162 votes

A Rioter said this:

(pro) players play Janna mid because she was bullshit

This was when Janna was too good of a wave clear and could just push all day. He then followed up with this:

players play Lee Sin because he is fun (in pro games)

AbyssphereJan 3, 20163 votes

{quoted}

A Rioter said this:

This was when Janna was too good of a wave clear and could just push all day. He then followed up with this:

I still remember being absolutely speechless seeing that. Like, I still do not know how Phreak could possibly have missed the contradiction there. Pros cannot simultaneously play champions because they want to win and because they want to just have fun.

RetillinJan 4, 20163 votes

Well either Phreak is mentally very weak (doubtful he seems smart) or he was trying to protect Lee Sin. Only two options really.

NarasimhaJan 4, 20161 votes

Just to jump in, why not? Where does it ever say that to be strong, a champion can't be fun to play?

Say what you want about Lee, he IS fun to play. I can't even pull off half the stuff people can with him, yet it still feels good to do the little things he can.

Baron of BreadJan 4, 20164 votes

I won't argue that Lee Sin can't be fun, but just because a champ is fun is not going to be a reason that pros pick them. Pros play to win, not to have fun but potentially lose.

They might pick Lee Sin over another jungler of equal strength if Lee is more fun, but they wouldn't pick him over a stronger jungler. That means if they are playing Lee Sin he must be at least one of the best junglers, if not the best.

Chespin2013Jan 3, 20162 votes

Your name is oddly familiar are you perhaps C9 Incarnation?

MephistophilisJan 3, 20162 votes

He has too much of everything. What I hate the most is that you can't never escape him, with his 2 low cd dashes and the high movement speed. I could accept he being the king of mobility, but packed with this we have a very high damage R ( also with %hp), who can also send people back as he please. But we all know that Riot has his favourites.. I just ban him every time I can

LuggJan 4, 20162 votes

Right now? Lee has been OP since release.

Clockwork MadokaJan 3, 20161 votes

While Lee Sin is difficult to play (due to his combos, and "trick plays") , the fact that once someone reaches the muscle-memory stage of playing him, there's no way outside of professional teamwork to stop him.

Tribbles FoxfolkJan 3, 20164 votes

{quoted}

While Lee Sin is difficult to play (due to his combos, and "trick plays") , the fact that once someone reaches the muscle-memory stage of playing him, there's no way outside of professional teamwork to stop him.

Difficult to play? Since when? For clearing: Q > Auto x2 > Q > Auto x2 > W > Auto x2 > You get it from here. It's practically impossible to die while clearing unless you're trying to play AP Lii Song (I've actually tried Rylai's on Lee Sin...It's terrifying in a pubs).

Clockwork MadokaJan 3, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Eevee Girl Alex,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fTX8cPEL,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2016-01-03T17:33:25.925+0000)

Difficult to play? Since when? For clearing: Q > Auto x2 > Q > Auto x2 > W > Auto x2 > You get it from here. It's practically impossible to die while clearing unless you're trying to play AP Lii Song (I've actually tried Rylai's on Lee Sin...It's terrifying in a pubs).

To be honest, I've never played him...I assumed that he at least had some skill involved while jungling.

Speaking of "difficult jungle champs", hows Udyr been? People say he's difficult....nah.

Tiger-Turtle-Tiger-Turtle-Clear

Tribbles FoxfolkJan 3, 20162 votes

{quoted}

To be honest, I've never played him...I assumed that he at least had some skill involved while jungling.

Speaking of "difficult jungle champs", hows Udyr been? People say he's difficult....nah.

Tiger-Turtle-Tiger-Turtle-Clear

Bear > Tiger > Bear > Tiger > Slam head on desk > Fall asleep from how boring he is > Repeat

You literally need 0 levels in Turtle when clearing the jungle, besides the shield if the camp's low and you're close to dead.

Alternatively, you can slam your face on the keyboard like a Katarina player and probably do just as well.

BloodArmagusJan 4, 20161 votes

Udyr is difficult because he's an all melee champ with no true gap closer in the league of mobility. Why would anyone think they were talking about how hard a jungle clear is when we're talking champ difficulty. It has some bearing but not much.

QuephaJan 3, 20161 votes

480% AD ratio burst

DorkunedAurasJan 4, 20162 votes

Bonus AD on all of those. Huge difference.

QuephaJan 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Bonus AD on all of those. Huge difference.

It actually isn't. Lee sin buys a long sword, his burst goes up by 48 damage. The only time that makes a difference is for Sterakk's Gage, and even if Lee's abilities scaled with total AD, that item would really only be mediocre on him.