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Yasuo waveclear and safe laning simply too oppressive.

Chuck Charles··61 votes·6,382 views

I am finally at that point where i can definitely deal with a yasuo in lane, i know how to trade and punish his weaknesses, etc predict movements whatever. its fine.

Yasuo is a great champion in my opinion and his design is fine. he's fun to play for sure. But his lane phase is just too much. his wave clear while being resourceless and having two ways of dealing with harass is just too much in lane. (flow and windwall). this allows him in matchups where the enemy laner is playing well and punishing him to simply fast push a wave to tower and force enemy laner to use all their mana to clear the wave to CS. he also gets time to clear side camps and expand his CS lead during this time. he then comes back, does the same thing. and before you know it, the enemy laner will be out of mana and have to back. he then fast pushes another wave and gets tower damage. rinse repeat.

yasuo pre-shiv is strong, but not overly oppressive and his wave clear is not insane, but once he gets the shiv, without jungler interference, he is basically going to auto win his lane CS wise. even in the c9 vs AHQ game with professionals, incarati0n heavily out farmed westdoor. granted, it was a bad match up for west door, but yasuo was able to just keep hard pushing in and there wasn't anything westdoor could do. even heavy wave clear champs like lux, twisted fate, ziggs, will eventually run out of mana.

and never mind that that yasuo can push super fast and then roam to snowball if you are playing smart and snowballing him yourself.

I mean I don't know how you remedy this to be honest. maybe remove or reduce damage to minions on the E dash? reduce damage to minions for his Q so he can't just spam dash Q, aoe crit? i honestly have no idea. but his ability to push a lane almost completely uncountered while also being able to duel quite well and outplay makes his lane phase feel honestly too oppressive.

his raw damage vs champions does not feel OP, but his utility to basically do whatever he wants in lane does.

104 Comments

A Loyal Support11 votes

Azir Heimerdinger Jayce are the worst to lane against.

IcyPepper2 votes

Isn't Azir kind of in a bad spot for solo queue?

Rufus Crabmiser7 votes

No, Azir is in a bad spot for people who are bad at him.

IcyPepper2 votes

Isn't that every champion ever? o.O

I'm just saying Azir seems a little... "meh" in solo queue at the moment. Like how Kassadin was when his ult range was nerfed. Azir is in a bad spot compared to other champions, I'm not discussing player skill at the moment.

Although Azir will probably always have a sub-50% winrate, and probably should if I remember what the Reds said correctly.

Rufus Crabmiser1 votes

No you can be bad at garen but still win a good bit because garen is super easy

IcyPepper3 votes

Are you just ignoring the rest of what I said?

Azir is never going to be on par with every champion since he's one of the most difficult. I recognize that. Solo queue Azir is not as good as solo queue Garen, whereas LCS Azir is definitely stronger than LCS Garen.

I'm just wondering if he's just a bit weak in solo queue, even for a champion like him. They managed to buff Lee Sin somehow, so it's not like Azir can't get some love (although I'm not advocating any buffs) if and only if he needs it.

Rufus Crabmiser1 votes

I think Azir is still really strong in Solo Queue as well. And I think Lee's been pretty meh in solo queue for at least a year now

Bhagswag1 votes

Azir is hard, I agree. But i have seen both good and bad ones in solo Q. More bad ones. Including myself.

Which is funny because the only two pentakills I ever got were with Azir in normals...LOL. Fly high Azir

LGBTCute1 votes

Azir is in a bad spot for people who don't want to hear any more about Shurima OMG AZIR SHUT UP ABOUT SHURIMA ALREADY I DON'T HAVE TO WITNESS JACKSQUAT OKAY????!!!!!!

Actually xPeke10 votes

Yasuo has to much defense, his windshiel needs some tuning that it can block like 3/4/5/6/7 spells per rank idk. There was also a thread about yasuo his windwall needing to cost Flow. and lasting longer based on the amount of flow consumed

AquariusGine9 votes

I have absolutely no way of dealing with Yasuo in lane on mana champs. and no I don't want to play Malzahar!!

I feel that if his windwall duration scaled with level, it would relieve mages so much in lane.

Chuck Charles6 votes

{quoted}

I have absolutely no way of dealing with Yasuo in lane on mana champs. and no I don't want to play Malzahar!!

I feel that if his windwall duration scaled with level, it would relieve mages so much in lane.

windwall duration is definitely an issue for sure, but his ability to push wouldn't be solved by this either. I've always felt the windwall lasts so damn long so its hard to find opportunities to trade with him as by the time windwall is down he has backed off and stays out of range until his flow is back up.

Feathermane6 votes

I like how he can windwall his minion wave and basically deny you half the minions under the tower. Not exploitable at all.

Keevalroy4 votes

Yasuo is a great champion in my opinion and his design is fine.

https://media.giphy.com/media/Fml0fgAxVx1eM/giphy.gif

yasuo pre-shiv is strong, but not overly oppressive and his wave clear is not insane, but once he gets the shiv, without jungler interference, he is basically going to auto win his lane CS wise.

Would you call this a fine and fair design?

What he needs is a full rework from the ground up so he isn't so overloaded and toxic to play against. Maybe he'll be healthy for once, but in the meantime, I'm all for nerfs so he isn't so agonizing in lane.

Only Play Darius3 votes

If Yasuo shoves you to your tower early game he's an idiot because that's asking to get ganked and he is actually extremely vulnerable ganks so long as your jungler isn't some novice who gives him a free escape dash or tries to gank while Yasuo has his Q3 available.

Although he has amazing melee waveclear, his ranged waveclear (which is the only type of wave clear that matters in LCS) is piss poor and once other players start coming mid to force down his tower he has absolutely no way of defending it.

Chuck Charles27 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NGeExGxA,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-10-12T05:18:17.681+0000)

If Yasuo shoves you to your tower early game he's an idiot because that's asking to get ganked and he is actually extremely vulnerable ganks so long as your jungler isn't some novice who gives him a free escape dash or tries to gank while Yasuo has his Q3 available.

Although he has amazing melee waveclear, his ranged waveclear (which is the only type of wave clear that matters in LCS) is piss poor and once other players start coming mid to force down his tower he has absolutely no way of defending it.

so you're saying to beat him, just outnumber him? oh ok. my post is about his lane phase 1 v 1.

you cannot depend on teammates in solo queue.

Only Play Darius2 votes

I know you cannot depend on your teammates in soloQ.

That Yasuo has the same issue you do. He struggles in team fights if he doesn't have a reliable knock up on his team.

He suffers more than most midlaners once people start crowding mid since he has no ranged waveclear and low base damage. That's his tradeoff for his 1v1 potential, which means nothing in League because it's a team game. All you have to do is not feed him and his power will significantly drop off once other people start coming to your lane.

Chuck Charles20 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NGeExGxA,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2015-10-12T05:50:34.569+0000)

I know you cannot depend on your teammates in soloQ.

That Yasuo has the same issue you do. He struggles in team fights if he doesn't have a reliable knock up on his team.

He suffers more than most midlaners once people start crowding mid since he has no ranged waveclear and low base damage. That's his tradeoff for his 1v1 potential, which means nothing in League because it's a team game. All you have to do is not feed him and his power will significantly drop off once other people start coming to your lane.

drop off? what are you on. he only gets stronger the longer the game goes on. by two items he has either 80 or 70% crit. by 3 items he has 100% crit, and really short cooldowns. after that it doesnt what he builds. he will melt you in seconds and he is great in team fights even without a knock up on his team. generally speaking, however, there is usually at least one displacement on a team besides yasuo. it is very rare for a team to have no interrupting CC on their team.

sure, his weakness is that once he dives in he will explode when focused. no doubt. I agree with that and always have.

but just because he explodes when he dives in does not mean his lane phase should literally be a free win in the right hands. (assuming you are left uninterrupted by junglers). that is just not fair.

diana has similar style to yasuo of dive bombing and her lane phase isn't as oppressive as yasuos. a lot of champions dive in...ekko, akali, etc. and none of their lane phases are as oppressive as yasuo.

DokiDokiTodoroki1 votes

In theory, I suppose he drops off because once he reaches 100% crit he can't go any further. He's used up all his steroids on a stat that's not going to improve and his damage is permanently lowered because of the 100% crit. I don't know who you are that he's melting in seconds, because if you're a tank then Randuin's will greatly reduce his damage and if you're a squishy then he shouldn't be allowed to reach you unless your teammates are literally sitting potatoes or you positioned badly. If it's rare for a team not to have any interrupting cc, then that should also apply to your own team.

As for a "free in" in laning in the right hand- the reality is that most mid lane champs are countered by Yasuo. Yasuo is an assassin, and assassins counter immobile mages. However, he's arguably one of the weakest assassins. Diana, Zed, Akali, and Riven are all considered counters to him, just because they do his job better. In exchange for his glass cannon early game (he HAS to build crit items), he gets a basic shield to avoid burst damage and good mobility for the laning phase. He also has no escapes if he shoves to tower.

Diana trashes Yasuo once she hits level 6. Akali is a walking snowball with zero counterplay besides the obvious "cc them." Ekko gets a massive nope with his ultimate. Yasuo really only has one way to go- forward. If he rushes statikk, he auto pushes the wave. If he wants to fight, he has to all in with no escapes except well placed dashes. If he's behind, his damage is even weaker than the other assassins and he's not even allowed to counter build his laner because of his crit passive. It's hardly a free lane, which is more evident if you see him top lane and let him get trashed by a Garen.

Chuck Charles2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Squishy BunBun,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NGeExGxA,comment-id=00020000000000010001,timestamp=2015-10-13T03:10:17.725+0000)

In theory, I suppose he drops off because once he reaches 100% crit he can't go any further. He's used up all his steroids on a stat that's not going to improve and his damage is permanently lowered because of the 100% crit. I don't know who you are that he's melting in seconds, because if you're a tank then Randuin's will greatly reduce his damage and if you're a squishy then he shouldn't be allowed to reach you unless your teammates are literally sitting potatoes or you positioned badly. If it's rare for a team not to have any interrupting cc, then that should also apply to your own team.

As for a "free in" in laning in the right hand- the reality is that most mid lane champs are countered by Yasuo. Yasuo is an assassin, and assassins counter immobile mages. However, he's arguably one of the weakest assassins. Diana, Zed, Akali, and Riven are all considered counters to him, just because they do his job better. In exchange for his glass cannon early game (he HAS to build crit items), he gets a basic shield to avoid burst damage and good mobility for the laning phase. He also has no escapes if he shoves to tower.

Diana trashes Yasuo once she hits level 6. Akali is a walking snowball with zero counterplay besides the obvious "cc them." Ekko gets a massive nope with his ultimate. Yasuo really only has one way to go- forward. If he rushes statikk, he auto pushes the wave. If he wants to fight, he has to all in with no escapes except well placed dashes. If he's behind, his damage is even weaker than the other assassins and he's not even allowed to counter build his laner because of his crit passive. It's hardly a free lane, which is more evident if you see him top lane and let him get trashed by a Garen.

For perspective, because of the way crit works, even yasuo's reduced crit, every item after his core 3 (trinity, ie, shiv) will be worth double its ad. A bloodthirster is effectively worth 160 AD because of the guaranteed crits at that point. Now it is not the same as say buying a 160 AD item as other champions can still crit but items have more value to him later than other champions because he has a guaranteed crit in every auto

So no he doesn't fall off after 3 items

And guys please understand I have never been advocating against Yasuo outside of lane phase or claiming that he is "op". Just that his lane phase is toxic and oppressive even at the highest level. Just watch any of the Yasuo games at worlds this year and you will see what I mean

LGBTCute3 votes

I don't think OP wants to actually learn how to deal with Yasuo. He just wants to complain.

Yas is easily beatable in lane. Disagree and argue, or listen and learn. It's your choice.

Chuck Charles2 votes

{quoted}

I don't think OP wants to actually learn how to deal with Yasuo. He just wants to complain.

Yas is easily beatable in lane. Disagree and argue, or listen and learn. It's your choice.

did you even read my posts? I have beaten him in lane on more than one occasion. Ive been able to kill and punish yasuo's mistakes all the time. i have never ever said he is without weakness or unbeatable.

just that his lane phase is oppressive in the sense that he has the fall back of simply fast clearing your wave and backing off endlessly if you are better than him. which feels like BS as I have limited resources and he is resourceless

lHikariAi1 votes

You're just being stubborn beyond comprehension. Another useless topic with low skill OP to the 'ignore' list.

Chuck Charles1 votes

{quoted}

You're just being stubborn beyond comprehension. Another useless topic with low skill OP to the 'ignore' list.

that really hurts man. we were such close friends too. I guess times and people do change.

JayenKei1 votes

Idk... I think yasuo's laning sucks O_o the only real thing he has going for him in lane is the insane mobility with creeps and if he does hard push lane that gives you the opportunity to freeze lane fairly easily. He also would lose out to other 1v1 champions in my opinion in lane but that's just me

Llanite2 votes

He's designed to be a lane dominant. There are 2 ways you win this, either get help, or wait for teamfight.

Hayaishi23 votes

I find it hilarious when every time Yasuo is in the meta he's unfair to play against and he always has some keyboard warriors defending his shitty design using pathetic arguments that have nothing to do with it like "Mages forget to autoattack because they one shot teams from 1k range"

We know you like the champion, but don't discuss balance if you can't set your personal bias aside.

Guy Fox Teemo2 votes

Yasuo has a lot of weakness's

1: No mobility if theirs not a lot of enemys around 2: INSANELY squishy, shield doesn't much at all and has been repeatedly nerfed since release (Rightfully so it was to strong) 3: His ult REQUIRES a knock up, although strong if he doesn't get it off on the right person as the right time, well he doesn't do much as he's easy to catch. 4: His play pattern requires him to push the wave to have early pressure on the laner, making him very vulnerable to ganks 5: Windwalls easy to play around early to mid game, as it has a very long CD and doesn't move. 6: Yasuo is EXTREMELY item dependent, if he doesn't get ahead early's he's pretty much just ignored for the rest of the game unless it goes on for like 40-45 MINS, or if his entire team comp is built around him.

Battlecast Sona5 votes

The main issue with this argument is that Yasuo's ability to splitpush is very high, and with only a little time spent splitpushing he can catch up from any laning deficit. Proper ward placement with Yasuo makes splitpushing incredibly safe due to his innate mobility in combination with his ability to dodge ranged initiations with windwall.

Guy Fox Teemo1 votes

Yes, he can take towers fast because of his build, he's not a good split pusher though as he's easily engaged on. And caught out due to have no mobility if he doesn't have a lot of enemy minons near by.

Battlecast Sona4 votes

Try again, I already explained why he's not really as prone to a lot of engagement tools. How do you engage on Yasuo from range when he has windwall? How do you surprise a splitpusher who is warding properly? Because if Yasuo does have proper vision, he's a fantastic splitpusher, and it's fairly easy to supply yourself this vision with a small gold investment. While he may not be able to use E to dash away without nearby minions, he's hard to catch with just 1 person, and if they send more people to stop you you've already accomplished a lot as far as map pressure goes anyway.

Guy Fox Teemo1 votes

You seem to assume that the person going to defend the split push is the mage or adc. (Range) Which 1: If they do that the enemy team is a complete dumbass. and 2: If they don't they'll send their top laner which is generally gonna be a brusier like Darius, Wukong, Olaf, etc. Who can easily shut down yasuo. If not their jungler, Amumu, Elise, gragas, etc. Which just as well can shove yasuo out of the turret.

Battlecast Sona3 votes

but the point is for yasuo to apply pressure and catch up in cs, not necessarily to take the turret. He accomplishes those things if those people come top for him. Additionally, Elise and Amumu are two of the junglers that Yasuo specifically stops from being able to engage with his windwall. Just because he can't get the turret doesn't mean he can't provide splitpush pressure for his team and get some CS if his lane goes poorly, which was the scenario I described.

Guy Fox Teemo1 votes

1: Your assuming Yasuo actually wards (Most solo queue players don't) 2: Your assuming that by the enemy team coming top (1-3), that the opposing team would take immediate action and take an objective (Again most won't maybe dragon, but probably not) 3: Elise can easily jump on Yasuo and burst him down idk what your talking about. 4: You assume to many things.

Battlecast Sona3 votes

We're having a different conversation here.

I'm saying that Yasuo is CAPABLE of doing these things, not that he will. I'm not assuming anything, I'm stating facts - Yasuo is capable of stopping an Amumu or Elise from engaging on him, and split pushing provides pressure. I never said that this makes him super omg op amazing, just that he can do it.

I never said it regularly happens, I never said it'll happen in solo queue, I never said players actually DO it, but Yasuo's kit is CAPABLE of being used that way by a skilled player. I also thing it's disheartening that you just assume the lowest common denominator - I know the boards like to shittalk solo queue players, but it's like they don't realize that they are ALSO solo queue players, so statistically not all of them can play like garbage.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

balance around high elo, they will ward and play safe. assuming the yasuo is bad and wont ward is not an argument of balance.

Galejin2 votes

Once I saw that some champions don't use mana/energy, I was floored. I don't understand or think I will ever grasp the concept of manaless champions. I think that is rubbish. Maybe I'm too old-school, but I'm sure if something other than cooldowns governed skill usage, there would be a bit more fairness in League.

YossarianSensei1 votes

It's for simplicity of design

If Yasuo had mana costs they'd be so low that they might as well not be there.

Kaokentake1 votes

shiv first yasuo is very easy to kill

provides waveclear but dies in 1 second

gank him. he doesnt really have escapes

Chuck Charles5 votes

{quoted}

shiv first yasuo is very easy to kill

provides waveclear but dies in 1 second

gank him. he doesnt really have escapes

and if your jungler decides to not gank which happens in solo queue often?

Cynika4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chuck Charles,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NGeExGxA,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-10-12T04:59:11.644+0000)

and if your jungler decides to not gank which happens in solo queue often?

You lose lane and then have everyone on your team tells you how bad you are. God bless soloQ :/

Handin Out Naps1 votes

Yasuo does not have ranged wave clear, his wave clear forces him to get into the minion wave which is suicidal if the enemy team is pushing up to your turret. And Yasuo's laning phase is the complete opposite of safe. If he is using his kit to harass you he auto pushes the wave. A champion with no escape, who auto pushes to harass is just asking to get camped. That's why Yasuo is such an easy target for ganks, his kit just welcomes them. Honestly complaining about Yasuo is almost as pointless as complaining about Zed. It just takes time for you to realise how easy it is to beat them.

Chuck Charles6 votes

{quoted}

Yasuo does not have ranged wave clear, his wave clear forces him to get into the minion wave which is suicidal if the enemy team is pushing up to your turret. And Yasuo's laning phase is the complete opposite of safe. If he is using his kit to harass you he auto pushes the wave. A champion with no escape, who auto pushes to harass is just asking to get camped. That's why Yasuo is such an easy target for ganks, his kit just welcomes them. Honestly complaining about Yasuo is almost as pointless as complaining about Zed. It just takes time for you to realise how easy it is to beat them.

Why are there so many comparisons to zed? Zed has a safish lane phase due to an on will escape in his kit. He does not have anything in his kit that allows him to instantly get rid incoming harass or negate it though. Being "shifty" and hard to land skill shots on is not enough similarities imo.

My complaints about Yasuo are not that his mobility is ridiculous. Even though it is. It's his identity whatever. It's that he also clears a wave super fast with said mobility. Then he can leave while you waste all your mana trying to farm under tower. Most mages have really low base and certain last hitting techniques don't work like they do with an adc for example. You HAVE. To use your abilities sometimes or risk falling behind.

If he could keep his mobility but not clear the wave so fast he wouldn't feel so oppressive imo because you CAN kill him 1 v 1. Recently against a good Yasuo in one of my last games I did indeed solo kill him but he was in the end able to out farm the shit out of me by pushing insanely non stop forcing me to go oom. This happens to me a lot against Yasuo. I can harass and beat him but CS is important and he wins the matchup anyway.

Also, saying ganks are his main weakness is ridiculous. Hoping your jungler ganks and ganks at right time and well is like praying for a miracle in solo queue. It's not going to happen most of the time

Handin Out Naps1 votes

He is often compared to Zed because of the way that everyone complains about both, but both can be beaten with knowledge. Not because of their similar kits, only because people love to qq about both. Being prone to ganks is a HUGE weakness in kits, wtf? If you are complaining about your jungler not ganking to take advantage of that weakness then this is just brought down to a low elo problem, and nothing else.

Llanite1 votes

FYI, you don't need to spend mana to farm under tower. For melee minions, let tower shoots twice then AA, ranger = 1 AA -> tower shot -> AA.

If he pushes the wave to your tower, stall it at your half of the lane and ask for gank. Yasou is easy target, due to having no escape, plus, if he's farming raptors as you said, his jungler basically has no presence (no oracle buff) which should make your laning even safer.

Battlecast Sona7 votes

this last hitting mechanic on AP champs is not applicable for the entire game (at least not on AP champs) - at a certain point the melee minions require an additional AA, and hitting them properly with the low aspd of a caster and the ability for an incoming friendly minion wave to disrupt your last hits is too high to say that "you don't need to spend mana under tower". You will, eventually, have to use mana to avoid missing CS if you're constantly under your tower, unless you're an AD champion.

Zero Engine1 votes

[deleted]

TwinkiePro5 votes

autos draw minion aggro, and if he stays back, thats an uneven trade for you. If your spells don't peirce or go over minions, you have to go around, at which he can dash through your minions and away. if you get close to your own minions, he dashes in and gets tons of damage if you have no escape ready.

Zero Engine2 votes

[deleted]

MLDzXnRRR1 votes

{quoted}

??

You're so contradictory I'm actually astonished

Have you EVER seen a melee vs ranged match up played properly? Melee takes a fuck ton of aa dgm. Are you face diving the ranged minions for 5 years or some shit? Lmao. He CANNOT stay back unless he wants 10cs at 10mins. He is melee.

Seriously, go watch a pro stream playing ranged vs melee and watch the abuse that comes out onto any melee.

The fuck do you mean he gets "tons of damage" if you have no escape ready...? Why the fuck do you need to escape in your own minion wave? All he can do is e-q if he doesn't want aggro, compared to you who can freely AA and use your spells. And if he AA's you, IN your minion wave, guess who draws minion aggro, resulting in, wait for it, AN UNEVEN TRADE? Even if he doesn't AA, he loses the trade. He cannot win trades vs your spells and AA's with 2 shitty early spells alone.

God I'm regreting logging back on, people literally have no clue what they're talking about here; its actually cancer

+1 People just want to shit on melee champions and rage, because Yasuo can deal with the ranged mids and carries.

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