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Manamune is in desperate need of buffs

Chuck Charles··49 votes·3,582 views

I tried out ADC kog after his recent hot fix and it wasn't too bad. I figured since he is an on hit attack speed beast come late game, what better item than to get manamune which does tons of on hit damage when it reaches muramana. the AD it gives in the meantime is an absolute joke, but i figured it would be worth the scaling?

well, not only does it not scale well damage wise until it hits muramana, it takes FOREVER to get to that point. i rushed this item and at 22 minutes only had 600 stacks out 750 stacks in a romp of a game. And yes I spent a lot of time farming despite our romp.

This item should feel super rewarding for the huge risk you take buying it early and saying "Im going to scale". the other ap scaling items in the game are top tier when they are completed.

Seraphs Embrace gives around 140 ap with its 1000 mana and a nice shield active. Rod of Ages gives 500 health, 120 ap, and 800 mana when fully stacked.

Muramana has a pretty awesome on hit effect, but gives a low amount of AD even when completed and fully stacked. It also can't stack faster than 4 mana at a time, unlike archangels which does 8 mana per ability. Muramana should probably stack at 8 mana per auto/ability when u get it as well. If it stacked faster and had even a slightly higher AD ratio per % of mana it would be very viable for scaling champs like the new Kog Maw.

SIDE NOTES: Another issue I found is there is a distinct lack of on hit effect items that are related to AD users in general. You basically have rageblade fully stacked, muramana when fully stacked, bork, and thats it. nashors, wit's end, trinity, etc. all don't apply to people who want to abuse on hit because they are either ap focused or only next auto on hit so it doesnt really help people who want to use it. Kog Maw is built to be this on hit effect machine gun monster but how? besides bork what is a strong item? nothing really. I feel like the idea of Kog Maw in the rework is actually fun in that he could feel like THE late game hyper carry. but there just aren't any items out there for poor koggy and the ones that are currently suck.

63 Comments

xxxMadLionxxx13 votes

You also have to consider once you build murumana, it is extremely annoying to toggle it off and on when farming. this sometime leads to you entering battle with it turned off because you were farming mininons beforehand.

Not only that, once it is on, the on hit active literally eats mana per hit. I would not be suppress to see Kog mow go from 100%-0% mana in like 2 secs at max attack speed. It does damage based on current mana so that means, anything less than 75% mana makes it less effective.

I love the item consept, but it's much easier to get sated and rewarding too. The item has too much micro management attached to it.

kaltenashes1 votes

i think that item 3508 is way too good over maramurame (what is it called again?) i used to build item 3042 on ashe, but never again i'll do it

Cherysse7 votes

Build BOTH, add another crit item, watch miracle damage occur

Prospector Pete1 votes

Too bad Kog'Maw doesn't build crit.

yay nibbers5 votes

I've actually built Crit'Maw on the 5.22 PBE cycle and it went pretty alright. Critting during W gives you 110% autos (137.5% with IE), evening out the damage and having both Firecannon and Shiv gives you silly burst every few seconds.

Bonipherus11 votes

Well manamune is sort of a self defeating item because you build it to relieve mana issues but it just steals your mana away when using the active. Also the passive is simply not good for ad casters because they don't build mana!

Auz the Ripper6 votes

Urgot disagrees with that last statement

sp4415 votes

Well, Urgot is sort of the only Champion who actually uses the damn thing.

And nobody uses Urgot. Because most people are idiots.

manliestdino4 votes

Jayce is the only other one I can think of also.

drbob20123 votes

I play Yorick, and it's a first buy every game. The ability to spam my spells with some bonus ad is OP.

sp4412 votes

And Ezreal on some avant-garde builds.

Blitzedlegend8 votes

Yorick

Bonipherus1 votes

Urgot is such an outlier in this whole thing that his kit was actually more catered to the item than anything else. Besides, riot already knows he is less than healthy and will get a full rework like poppy, sion, and taric anyway.

Moulin Rouge4 votes

It stacks way too slow and it's not even worth it unless you're Jayce

and even then, it's better to buy something else on him and not worry about stacking.

Davy Crockett1 votes

been playing a lot of jayce, and I agree. I almost never build manamune unless im snowballing and have enough gold to buy tear and pick axe, or even manamune itself. while jayce has painful mana costs, blue buff can help, and essence reaver is a nice bandaid. mana regen runes might be viable but im bronze so what do i know ;)

It Hertz When IP1 votes

Well, according to the boards, you're lucky you even know how to dress yourself and work a keyboard, so I figure you're ahead already.

Dalanin1 votes

it was way easier to stack it on him when you could get mana from r lol

Blitzedlegend4 votes

Urgot Yorick

Moulin Rouge6 votes

{quoted}

Urgot Yorick

who are they? I've never seen those champions before...

xxxMadLionxxx3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moulin Rouge,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FTXMsyYL,comment-id=000000020000,timestamp=2015-11-28T01:14:08.009+0000)

who are they? I've never seen those champions before...

They have been living in riot basement in cages. Riot never lets them out as they are chained to the walls and never see the light of day. They have never been outside and know nothing of the world we live in. All the know is the for walls of the basement and the guy that feeds them.

Sometimes late at night, people could hear them howling in the wind as they walk pass the riot building. Some say the building is haunted, some say there is a dreaded terror that will one day rise and curse us all.

In reality, it's just them howling for freedom.

Rebonack3 votes

Manamune could probably use some tweaking on Rift, that's for sure. It takes way too long to charge, especially with the average game time getting lower.

As far as Koggy goes, try running Rageblade and then building Kog more or less like a ranged Juggernaut. Rageblade, Tabi, Wit's, Mallet, and then two pure tank items depending on what the enemy team is packing. People will dive you. And even with just and handful of offensive gear Kog's damage output is still frightening. The goal is to be a big enough damage threat that you can't be ignored, but durable enough that trying to dive you is VERY risky.

ThePartyLeader3 votes

Isn't attack damage very similar to on hit damage.

TwinkiePro2 votes

AD is not as useful on Kog because Of his W, which doubles his attack speed, but reduces his AD to 55%, meaning on hits are several times more effective.

Rebonack3 votes

{quoted}

AD is not as useful on Kog because Of his W, which doubles his attack speed, but reduces his AD to 55%, meaning on hits are several times more effective.

Flat AD is incredibly useful on Kog since he (effectively) gets 110% total AD plus 2.5% of the target's max HP per 100 AD in damage by pressing W. The bonus AD ratio on his Ult is also rather amazing.

The most important offense stats on Kog are, in order, raw attack damage, OnHit damage, and attack speed. AP and Crit are gravy if they come bundled with the other three. This is why you rush Rageblade on Koggy. It provides all three of the stats he wants most. Mura is a pretty decent choice if you're running glass cannon Kog (don't run glass cannon Kog).

Sneak Dog2 votes

I disagree.

Kog'maw gets 10% increased value from ad and the rather meagre on-hit damage. (2.5% per 100 ad isn't that high. you need ~120 ad to 'equal' a borks 6% current health.)

He gets 100% increased value from on-hit effects! You can stack on-hit items to win. Rageblade is op right now, but bork and wit's end are solid items on koggles too.

I'd order his offence stats as on-hit, ad, as, ap, crit.

Rebonack1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sneak Dog,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FTXMsyYL,comment-id=0004000000000001,timestamp=2015-11-27T11:55:22.416+0000)

I disagree.

Kog'maw gets 10% increased value from ad and the rather meagre on-hit damage. (2.5% per 100 ad isn't that high. you need ~120 ad to 'equal' a borks 6% current health.)

He gets 100% increased value from on-hit effects! You can stack on-hit items to win. Rageblade is op right now, but bork and wit's end are solid items on koggles too.

I'd order his offence stats as on-hit, ad, as, ap, crit.

2.5% per 100 pans out to 50 extra damage against a 2000 HP target, which is where soft targets will be sitting by the time level 18 rolls around. So 100 attack damage effectively gets boosted up to 160 damage. Comparable to Draven's spinning axe DPS without having to worry about catching them.

The trade-off with AD on Kog is that while it typically doesn't boost his raw DPS quite as much as OnHit damage does, it also augments his Ult's damage. That 0.65 ratio with a bit of AD to back it up is a death sentence for anything under 25% HP. That's why I feel AD juuuuust manages to edge out OnHit damage as most attractive on Kog.

This is why Koggy's core item provides both item 3124.

Sneak Dog3 votes

However, items give up to 75, mostly 65 ad now. Whereas on-hit items are quite cheap and provide both good on-hit and as, rather than ad and crit. Not that crit is a bad stat, attack speed is just a whole lot better as it also improves your on-hit damage.

I think it's an interesting question though.

Rebonack2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sneak Dog,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FTXMsyYL,comment-id=000400000000000100000000,timestamp=2015-11-27T15:54:51.465+0000)

However, items give up to 75, mostly 65 ad now. Whereas on-hit items are quite cheap and provide both good on-hit and as, rather than ad and crit. Not that crit is a bad stat, attack speed is just a whole lot better as it also improves your on-hit damage.

I think it's an interesting question though.

Pure OnHit items aren't bad by any means, so long as they offer something else that augments Koggy's damage.

It's why I like Wit's End on him still. It gives a nice chunk of OnHit damage and attack speed, but it also strengthens all the rest of his magic damage via the resist stealing.

dr lichdeath1 votes

how come i dont see you discuss how youmu is also stron on him???

Auz the Ripper1 votes

Youmuu's is far more an assassin item Kog'maw doesn't benefit enough from armor pen to make buying youmuu's worth it

dr lichdeath2 votes

im talking more about the 65 ad and 6 sec long 40% attack speed which coincides with w duration

Cherysse3 votes

It is not a good idea to add extra scaling on the mana passive, but it could be good to add more flat damage to the Icon, if it granted 40 flat AD it could be totally worth. Also IT NEEDS TO CHARGE FASTER, it takes FOREVER

Sire Hippington3 votes

my biggest problem with muramana is the active effect. usually, if i go for a mana item, i do so because i want to have sustained impact in a fight. I want to be able to fully contribute even after 20sek of standoff followed by 20sec of fighting.

The active however goes into the opposite direction, it makes you weaker the longer fights go. It costs alot current mana, so despite haveing a 1000mana item, you still often get pretty low on mana in longer fights with it, and mostly the damage is tied to current mana, so the damage of the active decreases constantly over the fight.

So the mana it gives would help in extendet fights, but the active sucks in extendet fights... It also means you can only make great use of the item if you have spamable singletarget damage. Aditionally, ad champs lack other options with maxmana, you don't have a sweet combo like AP with AA+RoA. And aditionally.

i think manamune should get increased to 3100g(AAs current costs), giving similar amount of stats(so ~55ad +2%mana->ad) and also granting the active shield rather than the current. With the canges to ER, Manamune is now the ad-caster mana option(or should be), as ER is for AA-focused champs only now. But for most ad-casters manamune just sucks. With granting more ad and not costing mana, it would be better for most of them, and since nearly all of the pootential users are all in melees, haveing that shield would be damn great. Like jumping into the midle of the enemie team as wukong for the ult and then useing the active to survive their answer.

It also should have seperated manastacking for skills and AAs, so if you use both, AAs and abillitys, you can stack wice as fast as now, matching AA in that.

And for your ad-on-hit issue: 90% of all on-hit are ap, and for the rest you have BotrK. Kog has really good ap ratios, there is no reason to not get rageblad+nashor's+wit's on him, they all work great with his kit. The reason for on-hit beeing nearlly fully ap is easy: the purpose of on-hit is to empower AAs, increaseing your sustained dps. If you want to increase your physical aa damage, you have AS+AD+Crit, so no need for on-hit. If you want magical dps, you go on-hit. You just have to let go the idea that Kogmaw is a physical dps carry. Or go for a crit built, he still has a good bas AS, W atleast gives 10% more dps for normal AAs, Runaan's + BotrK adds up nicely, and ER would allow ult-spam while massively increasing the W uptime. You could also ad shiv for the aoe proc ever second(each aa gives 12 stacks, woth hurricane thats 36, so you get that proc every 3 aas, with max as thats nearly 2 procs/sec)

Penguin Eclipse2 votes

I'd argue the tear and both the items that build from the tear need some work. The tear is one of the weakest items in the early game because it does absolutely nothing other than provide mana. And it doesn't even do a very good job of that until mid game. Both the Seraphs Embrace and the Muramana take forever to reach. With most games being decided in the first 15 min, both the tear and the final items are out of place.

Pierce The Veal2 votes

When you look at seraph's you'll notice that with ~2000 mana it will give 120 AP, at the highest tier of ap from an item (excluding max stack mejai's). Muramana gives 60 AD at 2000 mana, which is less than the highest tier AD item, and unlike seraph, it ONLY gives damage. And unlike AP champs, AD champs don't have good options for a second mana item besides a sheen which doesn't really give much AD from muramana's passive. Considering the ability to build synergistic items for tear as an AP, it's only fair that muramana is somewhat stronger (because there's no synergy to be had with it, it's not even that good on ezreal).

KING OF MASKS2 votes

Has anyone tried building item 3508 + item 3042, then building 100% crit? How does the math work out for Essence Reaver's mana restoration and Muramana's mana consumption?

Sire Hippington5 votes

with 100% crit, you will dance around 50% mana, cause at 50%, the 3% curretn consumption and the 3% missing gained just equal out. If you drop below 50%, you gain back more than you use per AA, if you get above 50%, you consume more than you gain

dr lichdeath1 votes

which isnt good :( it shuld better balance around 75%-80%

Cherysse4 votes

with 100% crit you will always have 100% mana, because Reaver returns mana equal to max mana

dr lichdeath1 votes

no because muramana spends so much that only when around 50% of max mana return equals mana cost thus balancing it around 50% which isnt eough 75-80% is way better

Cherysse5 votes

Essence Reaver grants 3% of MAX mana restored on-cit, while Muramana Spends only 3% CURRENT mana... make your maths sir

dr lichdeath1 votes

....wait ye soz mb still had the old reaver in mind that one restored 3% of ur missing mana

Miku Lv991 votes

Manamune seems fine to me. Consider this: Ezreal item 3004 item 3508 item 3085 item 3031 item 3094

Why is this so strong? Your attacks hit 3 enemies, you get the mana from all the ones that you crit, you have a lot of attack speed, and since you get like 9% of your mana back per attack then you almost always can deal the full muramana damage or close to it to up to 3 targets almost every attack. And with the bolts also being able to crit, they could deal a lot of damage, too.

It's just probably a bad item on everyone but ez since he's the only one that's likely any good at using it with Runaan's.

Chuck Charles2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Miku Lv99,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FTXMsyYL,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2015-11-27T08:05:03.367+0000)

Manamune seems fine to me. Consider this: Ezreal item 3004 item 3508 item 3085 item 3031 item 3094

Why is this so strong? Your attacks hit 3 enemies, you get the mana from all the ones that you crit, you have a lot of attack speed, and since you get like 9% of your mana back per attack then you almost always can deal the full muramana damage or close to it to up to 3 targets almost every attack. And with the bolts also being able to crit, they could deal a lot of damage, too.

It's just probably a bad item on everyone but ez since he's the only one that's likely any good at using it with Runaan's.

so manamune is viable because it works on one champion when paired with around 3 or 4 other items. got it.

Nagma1 votes

you know riot cant do it because Jayce and Ezreal exist ?

Silents4291 votes

I rather we didn't buff and rework another item around marksmen, you guys got plenty now, I want a mana item tailored towards the other folks now.

In the case of a manamune, I think it's active is terrible and could use a new one, as well as letting it stack up just /slightly/ faster.

SoMNia1 votes

Uh...if you want to "abuse" on-hit effects, you have Rageblade, Muramana, BoRK, Nashor's Tooth, and Wit's End...so why is this a problem? How many items do you need? Or are you implying that Kog'Maw doesn't have AP scaling or magic damage in his kit, so he can't use Nashor's Tooth or Wit's End? Because both of those are pretty effective on Kog'Maw (especially Wit's End, but I know people like to pretend that's a worthless item). On-hit is not related to AD. It's related to attack speed.

Anyway, I agree that Manamune/Muramana is a bit underwhelming, especially after the Archangel's/Seraphs buff. Personally, I'd go for an Essence Reaver build if I wanted to use Muramana. Your mana would never drop very far below your crit chance, even if you never turned it off — 70% crit = always about 70% mana. And you could easily fill up after repeated R's.

Cibreca1 votes

It charges way too slow. Charging once every 4 seconds in battle is no good. Late game a wave or minion camp can take 3 seconds, then what?

Make +8 mana or even +12 mana. Right now its too slow.

Carpe Victoria1 votes

I tried making the muramana A LOT of times recently attempting to test damage with its toggle and i have yet to even get it to transform because of the current shorter game durations. The time it takes to get the stacks is stupid.

LadyRenly1 votes

That's why I NEVER, EVER buy manamune. I always wait until it's Muramana

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