If you nerf Malzahar like it's currently planned, you are going to nerf mid Malz VERY hard and he will be in an near unplayable state. He's already not great. If you guys could think of some ways to nerf Malzahar that wouldn't hit his mid too hard that would be great.
Ultîma51 votesWho would've thought point-click suppression and a passive that gives CC-immunity would be a bad combination.
RavenMagus11 votesThe passive sucks now anyways. It stops him from getting picked by Blitzcrank and that's just about it.
Silent Pace27 votesIt makes it more frustrating to stop his ult, but that's not a big deal for me.
The real problem is how consistent he is because his abilities are point and click.
A moment of silence for pre-rework Malzahar mains.
NichtHurz13 votesSeriously, I hate this rework so much. A little bit before the rework I was getting really good with AD Malz jungle and felt really good about it, since it was such an uncommon pick and you could do things merely possible with other champs. They've dumbed down his kit so hard...
warmcorntortilla7 votesIf you're too lazy to auto attack Malzahar one time to break his cc-immunity, then you deserve to waste big cooldowns on him. It has a long cooldown and, once again, it's broken by ANY champion damage of any kind, tower shots and jungle creeps.
And yes, a point-and-click suppression that does %HP damage, pretty much useless against squishy burst mages and assassins, who all either out damage you or have shields/sustain (or maybe both!)
The only way Malzahar is going to kill you is if you let him, or he gets jungler help. If you break his passive (just like with Yasuo), he is easy to abuse because of his terrible base movespeed and pithy damage and non-existent waveclear. Make him decide between farming or trading, and watch him either lose all his cs to tower, or get beat around the ears by the enemy mid with no ability to fight back.
Orangesilk12 votesYou're basically outlining why he's best played as a support, the only way he's going to kill you is if someone else is dealing the damage, like, for example, the ADC. He is easily abusable in a lane with long range mages and gapclosing assassins, so yeah, taking him to a lane where most of the enemies he will be facing are within his ideal range sounds better.
He has terrible waveclear, great, that's yet another reason to not send him on a lane on his own.
I'm sorry, he has many weaknesses but none of them apply on the support role, he's a fantastic support and a mediocre midlaner now:
Welcome to the club of being balanced around botlane.
Elikain7 votes were never mid lane mages to begin with. The fact they could go there means they have to be balanced around their primary role and have their secondary be OK.
Lulu and Karma can still be played mid successfully.
is a mid lane mage that transitioned to being a bot lane support. 
had the same thing happen to her. And not because they sucked on mid but because their kits were strong but unreliable against mobile targets. Morgana's AP ratios are through the roof and her Q alone (insane base damage as well) holds enough power to wipe you out in an instant, her W securing the kill during that 3 second root. If both of them are being played as damage supports and are good at it, how can access to a solo laners gold income make them worse?
People have just gotten used to playing them as supports, not realizing how strong they actually remained as mages.
Swarovsko13 votes was never a mid lane mage to begin with? What a joke please if you don't know Karma don't even bother to talk about her lmao
ZeichiVos1 votesMan, not everyone was around for pre-rework Karma. It's been years since she was designed for mid lane.
MisterShameless2 votesPre-rework was designed for mid. Rework was 3.6 designed for mid. 5.10 mini-rework was a split of mid and support. Patch 6.6 made her a support. This was less than a year ago, so it wasn't years. She is still viable mid, however Riot seems to aim nerfs at her solo lane rather than her support role aka shield bot role.
Elikain1 votes
IxtaliKing1 votesBased on this champion spotlight she was intended for both solo and duo lanes :/.
Elikain1 votesThat's right. If she was meant to fulfill both positions, then Riot didn't rework her as a support. She's still equally viable at both but the meta says she's now played as a Support.
IxtaliKing1 votesOh okay. I definitely wouldn't say "equally viable", she's more viable as support because that's what Riot is balancing her around, she just works mid as a niche pick atm. Imo that's not good enough and doesn't do her justice.
Elikain1 votesWell, if you level her Q instead of her E, that would be a different scenario suited for more damage and waveclear. Karma, since her full relaunch and the balance update, hasn't had almost any damage changes focusing around her Q and W. It was all E changes, trying to balance it out around her support position, considering that if she sinks enough AP into her build (which she does on mid no problem), her shield values are insane. Meanwhile, she shouldn't be doing the same with base shield values + mantra bonus.
I don't even know where the meme "Karma is not a mid laner anymore" originated from. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Karma , go to History tab and then scroll past her old kit and go to Patch History notes.
IxtaliKing2 votesI don't even know where the meme "Karma is not a mid laner anymore" originated from.
It comes from Karma losing her damage options and dueling power in favour of a longer root and higher shield values. A very unsatisfying trade off, making her better suited to supporting and mid a niche pick. Before she was a choice when you wanted a damaging support like Morgana, now she's competing directly with Enchanters like Lulu and Janna.
Taliyahc11 votesKarma was mid to begin with, but her rework just turned her into a shield battery for the bot lane which feels rediculous, shes still viable mid but she falls off pretty quickly
Euthenaasia9 votes
People have just gotten used to playing them as supports, not realizing how strong they actually remained as mages.
Karma never mid? You must be new here
Derfel31 votesRemember when Malzahar was a niche anti assassin mage mid laner played by a small but dedicated base of fans with favorable match ups into many of Riot's clear favorites like Yasuo but even or bad match ups into long range poke mages. Remember that? Remember also when Malzahar could be played in the jungle as an AD mage that scaled into a split pusher that specialized in melting towers by swarming voidlings, with a high skill floor but rewarding ceiling? Remember that?
Last tweet by David Capurro in May "Probably hotfixing Malzahar tomorrow. Is he OP in mid lane as well? Or mostly in the jungle?"
lol, truly a job well done. Just give it up, David Capurro has long forgotten who Malzahar even is, the only people who care are the handful of Malzahar players that were there since before the rework, praying he wouldn't fuck him up like they did 3/4 "juggernauts" and watching as Riot's neurotic balance team fumbled again and again trying to fix David Capurro's mistakes while he was hiding in a corner somewhere preparing to rework the assassins (good work there too lmao).
Paroe12 votesRemember when Malzahar was a niche anti assassin mage mid laner played by a small but dedicated base of fans with favorable match ups into many of Riot's clear favorites like Yasuo but even or bad match ups into long range poke mages. Remember that? Remember also when Malzahar could be played in the jungle as an AD mage that scaled into a split pusher that specialized in melting towers by swarming voidlings, with a high skill floor but rewarding ceiling? Remember that?
Last tweet by David Capurro in May "Probably hotfixing Malzahar tomorrow. Is he OP in mid lane as well? Or mostly in the jungle?"
lol, truly a job well done. Just give it up, David Capurro has long forgotten who Malzahar even is, the only people who care are the handful of Malzahar players that were there since before the rework, praying he wouldn't fuck him up like they did 3/4 "juggernauts" and watching as Riot's neurotic balance team fumbled again and again trying to fix David Capurro's mistakes while he was hiding in a corner somewhere preparing to rework the assassins (good work there too lmao).
Riot never knew who malzahar was to begin with. Like sona, malzahar was seen at his "surface identity" - not as an extremely niche anti-assassin who specialized in bursting down champions who attempted to assassinate HIM.
Pre-rework malzahar was not only worlds more balanced, he was more fun and had EXTREMELY clear niches he excelled at. Support malzahar is a product of the rework, not malzahar himself. When riot dumped all his damage into his voidlings and took OUT 1140+3.4AP damage FROM HIS BASE DAMAGE ALONE and gave him the passive he has, they gave him all the tools of a damage oriented support. Malzahar has BEEN an auxiliary support since the rework. Him getting picked botlane has less to do with actual strength and more to do with counter picks and synergy with the meta marksman.
ModAcademy Kayn5 votesOne could argue the health of a character who shuts down any assassination attempts instantly, withholding QSS, in general. Sure it's a Niche, but is it a healthy one?
Derfel7 votesThis is just a lazy analysis of Malzahar and a needless attempt at reducing the complexity of league's systems to further a flawed argument. Pre rework Malzahar never had an overwhelming match up into any assassin simply because his laning was not only extremely vulnerable to jungle pressure, but pre rework Malzahar was actually quite weak before his first back (any experienced yasuo player can tell you how easy it was to all in an inexperienced Malzahar at lvl 1-2). Coupled with high mana costs and a propensity to shove the lane you can see how pre rework Malzahar can't simply be boiled down to "well he can press r on an assassin NOT HEALTHY". That's just nonsense.
ModAcademy Kayn13 votesI remember old Mal vividly, I played him a lot, but I'm not blind to his problems before then. A good Malzahar was a brick wall for his opponent, limited only by the jungler. The whole "weak before first back" hardly means a lot for the rest of the game he's in. Jungle pressure is easily avoided by playing safe by E'ing the wave, then walking back to turret.
And I'm not boiling down Malzahar as a whole. I'm boiling down the concept of "niche anti assassin mage". Old Mal wasn't that interactive with his laner, when the Malzahar was good.
Fondling Gems1 votesDidn't help that he was one of the max a point and click damage mages either. Point and click dots that do the majority of a champions damage have always been highly uninteractive for others in the game because they naturally have longer CDs (Due to their being dots) which means they go in to trade even less frequently and their trade is the equivalent of one AA except it does 70% of their damage minus ult.
Both Swain and Malz pretty much required changes to those because it wasn't interactive for opponents. Did the changes fall flat? Sure, but that doesn't change that fact that changes were needed to make them interactive champions for everyone in the game.
ModAcademy Kayn1 votesPeople tend to think that whatever they enjoy is what is right, but it's so easily to be blinded by nostalgia or the fact that they are not on the receiving end of it. Old Malz was a brick wall for everyone who didn't outrange him, or couldn't outrun.
ZyniX3 votesSo you mean he had clear strengths and weaknesses? He had no mobility, his only hard cc made him a sitting duck, but he was good at shutting down assassins.
ModAcademy Kayn1 votesYou are over simplifying to make your point, disregarding the actual interactivity (lack of it) of Malz with his opponent.
ZyniX2 votesDodge his Q, stay away from the last minion in a wave with E on it. His ult was also easy to play around because he had to get close to use it while being a squishy immobile mage. Let's not forget how broken sash was agaisnt him too. Maybe if you have an argrument you should make it instead of throwing around your favorite league catch phrases like interactivity, counterplay, etc.
ModAcademy Kayn1 votesYou're once again simplifying, and isolating everything from each other. You know what Malz's kill pattern was? Q-W-E-R, and if you put that all on a person, they're going to get hit unless they have god-like reflexes, but even if they flash, R follows no matter the distance.
And you talk about individual abilities functions and how to avoid them. That is true, but you are isolating them from how they are actually used in game. Malz never had to fear the jungler, because he could rather safely E a minion, clear wave, and then return to his turret waiting for the next wave, hence why he is rather low when it comes to being interactive. Malz was The Safest wave clearing mage once he backed. A Malz who used Q to poke is a moron, he doesn't need to poke, he just needs to get to Level 6.
You can't get close to your own minion wave while E is hoping around (it doesn't prioritize minions over champs), and if you're anyone who doesn't have the range of Lux, Xerath, Ziggs, than you're going to get completely fucked when trying to engage upon him unless the Malzahar is stupid. "But what if i catch him with the CC for my one shot combo??", well congrats, you're beating Malzahar the same way he'd beat you.
And I don't know where you're getting Squishy from. Early game, maybe, but late game old Malz could get some pretty nice health from ROA, Rylais and Liandries, with a Zhonya's for Armor. That may not be tank status, but that makes him a hell a lot harder to blow through.
In the end, Old Malz is a brick wall. You either smash the thing to bits with a Wrecking ball from afar, or you get nowhere against him, for he is a wall. Teamfights aren't as simple as you think, as Malz isn't going to stupidly ult the first person he sees, rather using it as a safety measure if someone get's close to him/carry. A Malz who holds onto his ult is one of the scariest things I ever had with old Malz, as I never knew when i was truly safe to try and kill him.
That a real enough argument for you?
ZyniX2 votesYou are ignoring the early game. He had to play very scared for fear of junglers more then most mages. He couldn't just E a wave and leave until he actually had damage. Until level 6 he could really be abused especially vs any poke champ. Yeah after that any mage could wave clear and walk away. He was supposed to prevent assassins from doing their job and he did it well. Maybe malz rubbed you the wrong way too many games lol.
deadlychuck15 votesHave riot ever considered actually moving some of that power away from the voidlings to begin with?
I know that they wanted to make him an amalgamation of the old AP and AD play styles, but as far as i can tell, it seems like giving the voidlings a substantial role in the AP malz kit is impossible to balance. Though i do blame this partly on the fact that they're completely adverse to putting power back into his E and R, as they could easily reach the same levels they did before the rework, and then all that the rework would've accomplished was making him even more "low agency" -RiotRepertoir .
They've already, more or less, overhauled the W mechanics in 6.23, but they are still at an impossible spot of being too good at one thing, and terrible at another thing. At some point, riot has to recognize that the almost non-existent problems that pre-rework malz caused were less substantial than the problems that the new malz is constantly bouncing between. It took riot 315 days to revert the kog'maw rework. They've got 38 left on malz.
Onkel Malte10 votesYou're goddamn right. Old Malz was awesome and I'd do a lot to see him back!
This "keep AD Malz alive" mentality was probably the only reason why his new gameplay ended up like this.
Derfel9 votesThe saddest thing here is AD Malzahar is less viable then it ever was pre rework, bordering on unplayable as his voidlings are now terrible at taking jungle creeps AND towers (in that they can't).
LankPants12 votesSame for Zyra. Riot's balance team is doing a pretty bad job at handling mage 'supports' right now IMO.
GayFluffyUnicorn9 votesAh zyra support. Dealing more dmg with liandries than a two-three (boots) items orianna. Lovely.
LankPants15 votesYeh, I've always had a problem with Zyra's damage scaling. It takes her 760 AP to double the damage on her plants, I don't know of any other champ in the game with that sort of AP to double on any of their abilities. Even abilities that you think of as having shitty scaling with AP like Janna's W take somewhere in the 500s of AP to double their damage.
The problem with Zyra is clear as day, her bases and scalings are out of line. Her bases are too high and her scalings are too low. If I could make one change to Zyra I'd change her plants damage/level to 3 from 5 and the AP ratio from 0.15 to 0.27 (0.25 needed too much AP, 0.3 too little). This would reduce the base damage on her plants at 18 from 114 to 78, She'd need 16.67 AP/level to get her damage to the same level, at level 18 that's 300 ability power for the same damage. Support Zyra might reach this very late into the game, but for most of the game she'd take a damage loss. Mid Zyra however would get this number at around 3 items, before she even hit level 18.
This change wouldn't fix Zyra, it would probably leave her weak in both roles due to the massive drop in midgame power. She'd need some follow up but the important thing this change would do is put Zyra into a position where she'd actually be balancable.
Eedat11 votesThey just need to give him a VGU at this point. There really isnt a way to nerf support Malz without hurting Mid Malz
YumaS2Astral18 votesThey just need to give him a VGU at this point. There really isnt a way to nerf support Malz without hurting Mid Malz
Or they could revert his rework like they did with Kog'Maw. Old Malzahar was more balanced and arguably healthier. He didn't relied on an in-built Banshee's Veil to work, yet he did significantly more damage.
SnowFall5 votesCan't stress that enough
Onkel Malte11 votesAt this point I will still stand for a revert or full VGU!
There's so much potential in Malzahar and there are waaaaaay too many issues since his voidlings are either to weak or too strong.
Sure he needed work back then, but back then I was able to determine how much damage my target will take instead of hoping that the voidlings will do the work.
Paroe5 votesAt this point I will still stand for a full VGU!
There's so much potential in Malzahar and there are waaaaaay too many issues since his new kit got released.
Sure He needed work back then, but honestly I liked his old version better because then I was able to determine how much damage my target will take instead of hoping that the voidlings will do the work.
The current malzahar has a huge lethality issue. He does damage - but he has a very hard time killing people and is really good at holding them in place so others can kill them.
Rather than a VGU, id just like a reversion. Ive said this before, but the nerfed voidlings (before the additional damage to minions was given to make him capable of laning properly) on his old kit should have replaced the pool and his passive should have been a spellblade passive that made his voidlings target something.
Onkel Malte3 votesSpellblade passive sounds at least better than his spellshield. Still I don't like the new iteration of his voidlings at all, they are too inconsistent overall and the multiplication thing is just awkward.
But I have to agree he does tons of damage, but rarely can kill someone on his own which actually makes him good as a support pick.
Troll for Trump5 votesThey do that a lot.
There's almost no way you can nerf Malz supp without nerfing him mid.
Same with stuff like 
support.
morris111 votesNerf his mana pool / regen or increase costs (preferrably W) and compensate with more mana restoration on E kills (edit: by kills I mean creeps too).
Make voidlings spawn from killing minions again at the cost of removing or lowering bonus damage towards them.
Make his E not proc all 3 Spellthief charges.
Bonus: refreshing E with Q shouldn't proc Thunderlord's (most midlane Malzahars take DFT anyways, only supports get it for the burst)
INoble KnightI2 votesTahm Kench is designed to be a support
SpongebobIsLife2 votesincorrect, he was designed to be a top laner.
Requiemsfire1 votes[deleted]
the weeaboo9 votesI said it in the post. Change E to last-hit mana refund, refund more mana. Bump up all mana costs.
Requiemsfire8 votesYeah but then Malzahar can no longer harass his opposing laner as effectively as he currently can and he'll essentially be forced to sit back and farm while champions like 
do both.
Bump up the mana costs too high and you end up with a champion who can't sustain themselves through a long fight even with 
.
the weeaboo3 votesHmm. Good point. Oh well. Guess I'll edit post.