Mordekaiser's rework should tackle the problem of him not having a strategic "niche"

Malicious Metal··66 votes·4,299 views

I've been asked this really often recently; If I like Mordekaiser so much, why do I seem to always put him in a negative light? Well it's quite simple; Because I like Morde this much I want him to be the best champion he can possibly be, delivering on his core theme and giving him a place in the game that can be sustainable (looking at you 100% pick/ban rate Morde).

Anyways, let's get started!

What's a strategic niche? Riot has been reworking champions that seemed "fine" because of this very topic. They want there to be a reason to pick certain champions. That's why the mage update strives to make them all more unique and differentiating them, giving them unique strengths. Taking a look at the other Juggernauts we can easily make out their strategic niches Garen Anti-Carry. His villain mechanic gives him the tools to deal with snowballing champions and really shut them down. A very solo-q oriented champion Darius Penta-kill clean-up machine. Darius is a ticking time bomb in team fights. Pray he doesn't kill anyone with his ultimate or you'll see the other four soon follow. With Noxian might Darius can tear entire teams to shreds by only getting the killing blow on ONE champion Skarner Skarner is the objective control/utility Juggernaut. He clears the jungle with ease and can contest objectives easily. He's more of a mix between Tank and Juggernaut though Illaoi She's harder to pin down but Illaoi primarily thrives in engage heavy teams where she can follow up with devastating ultimates. She heavily punishes the enemy's mistakes

And then there is Mordekaiser , whose strategic niche was supposed to be a replacement ADC, which we saw bummed due to him having to be blatantly over tuned and relying on unfair mechanics to work.

But what could this be replaced with? Well, there are several different niches he could fill, from Anti-Diver, to Objective control and Drain-Tank.

No pain, no drain! This is the niche I feel matches Mordekaiser's theme the best. He's an unyielding Revenant bringing with him the black mist, a conqueror of both territory, body and soul. A Mordekaiser kit that would be based on this strategic niche would tap into Drain Tank elements and be heavily tied to his passive and ultimate capabilities.

Some of Mordekaiser's problems are the lack of consistent durability when behind, lack of utility and not having a real reason to be picked other than being OP at times. As a Necromancer-Warlord, like Sauron's usually depicted, A Dark Lord character with sinister power over forbidden magics of life and death, Equal parts physical prowess and magical mastery, I feel a kit expanding on this theme would be suited for the Iron Revenant. Not to mention revenants often being linked to the coming of winter, hardships, disease and other calamities.

But enough of fancy words; What SHOULD this kind of kit include?

STEALING of stats Mordekaiser already taps into this Drain-Tank fantasy with his passive and ultimate; Inflicting pain shields him from death, with his ultimate he makes your allies his thralls, their power now serving him. So why stop there? What could be added to the mix would be a sort of Armor/MR stealing ability, probably as his W skill. A shroud of metal shrapnel and black mist surrounding him and draining the remittances of his enemies would make him thrive fighting in the frontline, effectively wearing down the opposing fighters and tanks. Not only would this be a blast from the past, seeing his old W used to give him resistances, but it would tie his durability to going balls to the walls and wading into the opposing front line. ->Mordekaiser is somebody you really don't want to be around. He's this unholy entity on the battlefield, plants withering and dying in his presence so why shouldn't the living feel a chill being around him?

By upping Mordekaiser's draining aspect he could finally have a niche other than to pick him solely for gimped/unfair mechanics like the dragon ghost and xp passive. He could function as a team's frontline by becoming tanky by proxy; By simply doing his job of leading the charge he'll provide his team with not only a way to weaken the enemy's defenses but also a powerful front line they can rely on.

So to recap this: Mordekaiser is a conqueror, he's an undying warlord Wraith who leads the march of the dead and brings with him the black mist, he's supposed to be this horrifying legendary Tyrant-King who haunted most of Runeterra's continent and a "real" rework should embrace this aspect by giving him all the aspects attributed to a Revenant. Think the eastern european legends of the Wild Hunt and their parallels to the Black Mist. By expanding on this fantasy and giving Mordekaiser the niche of Drain-Bruiser he would not only have the strategic niche of being a great pick against teams with a heavy frontline but also have much-needed utility in his kit.

(Not to mention him building Rylais upps the Wild Hunt-feel by bringing with him not only death and despair but also freezing northern winds)

http://orig11.deviantart.net/ddb5/f/2013/251/d/e/king_of_the_wild_hunt_by_scratcherpen-d6lk0ph.jpg

51 Comments

Subject 59 votes

Old Morde:

Could actually push waves Had AOE Q Had AOE E Had AOE W

New Morde:

Hold on let me just hit this minion 2 times and wait for my flush to come up Hold on let my minion wave or an ally come help me Hold on let me wait for my ability to be a little less garbage Ability should be renamed to 'dragon catcher'

Khâmul6 votes

He doesn't need to steal stats ( Trundle is already doing that). But he should have inner tankiness linked to his shield,which should be more than extra hp. http://skilllift.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/latest1-1-1.png

Malicious Metal9 votes

The reasoning behind the Drain aspect is giving Morde an incentive to brawl in the enemy front line, not only building up a massive shield on the enemy fighters and tanks while SHREDDING their defenses.

It also provides Morde with much needed utility and allows him to invest in health/ap/ad rather than resistances, Juggernaut's primary stat is hp after all.

Snowplosion5 votes

I always thought that Morde should be a champ that stole stats from the enemy. Just seemed to fit him really well.

Beldori5 votes

ahh Leoric, what Morde should have played like

Big Lincoln5 votes

i've been saying for the LONGEST time that he should be a drain tanking, life-stealing bastard. (even wasting my time doing a fan-rework about it, complete with stickman sketches)

it would probably be much healthier than giving him the life-sap directly, too. That way, Riot could place emphasis on using stolen resists to make his shield beefier, and he'd have to buy sustain if he wanted health steal. (possibly might stay, who knows)

it'd be great for actually making him WANT to be anywhere near tanks, too; right now he just kind of charges down your carry and hopes he doesn't get CC locked and die trying. Mordekaiser should be a champion who's willing to take down anyone that gets near him.

also AoE, we need more AoE

Malicious Metal6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i19J0oTT,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2016-03-13T01:17:13.412+0000)

also AoE, we need more AoE

AoE; Because we hate everything equally

Big Lincoln1 votes

since this is a mordekaiser thread i'll just go on a tangent and talk about shifting his Q more to long-term ramping DPS like riot intended as part of what i'd love to see for him

what if it was functionally the same as it is now, an AA enhancement with 3 levels, but instead of being 3 straight hits it worked something like; first activate of Mace of Spaces, hit someone, then get a buff for a portion of that damage on your AAs for a while. attacking refreshes it, so if you keep it up long enough, MoS comes off of cooldown and you can charge to level 2, and then level 3 where even the passive damage makes him hit hard.

and then add growing AoE to that because Mordekaiser does not settle for conquering one person at a time. Level 3 gives him huge AoE so he can slap your ADC while he's fighting your tank.

54340481_DEL3 votes

I would play the crap out of this Morde!!!! Stealing stats is a cool idea that Trundle sorta has but Morde would provide less CC & tower pushing in exchange for personal tankiness & creating 4v6 scenarios making him UNIQUE!!!! It would be a lot better than the steaming pile CertainlyT shit out for us like a 3rd grade art project.

Malicious Metal2 votes

He could be a real Blight Knight^^

Elikain1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i19J0oTT,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-03-12T10:22:01.710+0000)

He could be a real Blight Knight^^

Mordekaiser's strategic niche is not a replacement ADC. His niche is soul enslavement. Meaning his mere presence (and killing/assisting kills on ult) is enough to turn the enemy ranks against them. His most notorious non-ultimate move is Dragonforce, where he enslaves the soul of the Dragon and uses it to assert lane dominance, push towers and zone them off defending objectives or simply winning fights unfairly.

That mark was hit when Riot updated his kit however, his damage and tankiness (and free exp) was massively overtuned. Even without trading a single blow with you in lane, he was leveling as a solo laner, had a really good clear, was getting too tanky by overstating people and therefore just dying to him once or simply getting sent to base meant you definitely lost the lane and dragons. Then all the nerfs came (which were deserved) but i think Riot nerfed him too much, to the point of not even being a threat because he is not scary close range without any major items and now you're the one getting harassed by going into a ranged matchup, no matter who it is. You simply aren't tanky enough to deal with aggression this early and items you're getting aren't stopping the enemy ADC (who buys a BF Sword) from constantly hitting you. Now you're the one having to wait minions to be pushed to your tower if you don't want to get poked for free and laning phase is incredibly boring and unsafe, even to the point of being afraid of getting roamed/tp'd on or ganked because of the lack of escapes.

His kit has high risks involved and his playstyle doesn't reward him enough for taking them, outside of one good use of his ult to enslave a Dragon or the most fed opponent and use his stats in your advantage.

Changes?

I think his kit right now is on solid ground but his damage is just not good. I think that keeping his IMMENSE 3rd-hit-almost-one-shot-Q should have been kept as a reminder that if you want to harass Morde, you better be ready to die as well or at least be backed up by a jungler, a proper disable, or having support who can make the damage go away rather than him being forced to face tank harassment and hope he won't feed or get pushed around by everyone because they're range. Also, his attack speed on active Q is pretty slow, he could benefit on doubling his AS on active Q (to smash faces faster) and he should never be 1v1'd if you don't have the proper tools to kite him.

This is exactly how i imagine him being, a quite scary dude who you should not take lightly, even if he is so damn slow. Once he finds a way to get to you, you're like putty in his hands.

Lord Graves III1 votes

This is exactly how i imagine him being, a quite scary dude who you should not take lightly, even if he is so damn slow. Once he finds a way to get to you, you're like putty in his hands.

I feel like mid and late game though, that is exactly what he does. Especially with the right items, Morde can realistically 2v1 a support and marksman late game if he gets the drop on them (yeah that is really rare and hard to do, but he still kills them all by himself then goes to push a lane).

Mordekaiser's early game could use a buff I agree, but I think it is ok that the early game is the time where the dark lord is weakest and must consolidate his power. I feel like his early game is noticeably weak, but I really do feel this is in exchange for his mid and late game.

Elikain1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Graves III,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i19J0oTT,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-12T23:50:36.058+0000)

Mordekaiser's early game could use a buff I agree, but I think it is ok that the early game is the time where the dark lord is weakest and must consolidate his power. I feel like his early game is noticeably weak, but I really do feel this is in exchange for his mid and late game.

I too also agree that for the power he can offer in a team, there has to be a low point where he eats and then grows big, strong and scary but i feel like top and bot lane are opposites. Top lane is tank/fighter lane that can sustain itself 1v1 and take a gank or two but bot lane is 2v2 and putting a self sufficient mono-a-mono guy upsets the balance as then your support is an extra pair of hands that you don't necessarily need and they can roam or whatever. I'm not sure how would you balance someone to function in a 1v1 and 2v2 without weakening or strengthening the positions you're not supposed to.

Lord Graves III1 votes

In what horrid realm do you want to make Morde a worse pusher than trundle?

He already does create 4v6 senarios. He also has disgustingly high objective control once he gets going. When mordes team takes dragon, Morde also takes all the front teir towers. His single target damage on stationary targets is also really really good, meaning he is rather likely to get that ghost dragon.

54340481_DEL1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Graves III,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i19J0oTT,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2016-03-12T18:32:16.066+0000)

In what horrid realm do you want to make Morde a worse pusher than trundle?

He already does create 4v6 senarios. He also has disgustingly high objective control once he gets going. When mordes team takes dragon, Morde also takes all the front teir towers. His single target damage on stationary targets is also really really good, meaning he is rather likely to get that ghost dragon.

Trundle is a superior tower pusher unless Morde kills someone to become his thrall. I know he already creates 4v6 scenarios, that is what I was saying would make him unique from Trundle if he also stole stats. Also, the Dragon Ghost was just a gimmick to get him to be "solidified as a bot laner" or whatever crap CertainlyT shat out at the time from his mouth hole. Every time I've seen it taken it gets killed after 1 tower is gone, if that much, cause making it too strong would be incredibly unbalanced.

Lord Graves III1 votes

Trundle is a superior tower pusher in that he has higher attack speed. Given a Trinity Force (or a lich bane if thats how you roll), or a dragon, or a thrall, or a minion wave.

I'd argue morde is a superior pusher in general due to his ability to make the minion wave a non factor once he hits level 8 or so.

And regarding ghost dragon I thought the same way you did, but ill be damned if controlling that dragon and his AOE autoattack isnt fun as balls. Dont say shit about ghost dragon mother******. Hes my homie straight outta compton.

I feel that morde is in general less safe than trundle, but calling Trundle a superior tower pusher is kinda disingenuous. I feel the reason trundle gets a rap as a pusher is because he bullies the opponent out of lane and then pushes with his lousy pushing abilities, then kills your tower with his slightly above average attack speed (and damage he stole from your minions). Its that bullying that enables the tower kill though. Hes not exactly master Yi in terms of tower pushing.

For that matter I'd consider Mordekaiser well above Trundle's league in terms of pushing. Mordekaiser chills with the truly obnoxious pushers. Like Master Yi and Heimerdinger. Or Viktor.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

I would play the crap out of this Morde!!!! Stealing stats is a cool idea that Trundle sorta has but Morde would provide less CC & tower pushing in exchange for personal tankiness & creating 4v6 scenarios making him UNIQUE!!!! It would be a lot better than the steaming pile CertainlyT shit out for us like a 3rd grade art project.

this is the problem i see with this. its already trundles nieche. it makes him kindof an anti-bruiser/anti-tank bruiser.

honestly, i like the idea that they put morde into bot lane. its about time other champions than adc can get into this position. especially now that they have changed adc to be able to consistently jungle and solo lane.

just my personal opinion though. i hoped theyd also get urgot back into bot lane next as an anti-adc.

you can argue that morde has "unfair mechanics" to be able to lane on bot vs. an adc and a support. but this is only because technically adc/support duos have unfair mechanics that prevent anyone who doesnt have range themselves to lane against them. we can see this happening aswell when adc are going top lane against melees.

adc are opressive lane bullies, and they need equally opressive mechanics to be able to be dealt with in lane. thats why theyre owning the duo lane for 6 years in a row now, as supports simply make them more safe while the adc still has all the bullying potential. its just that no one is questioning anymore if it is even ok that theyre pushing out any other options from bot lane, because it has become the normal situation.

but technically theyre just as bad and unfair as mordes duo lane mechanics.

if you dont believe me, try running 2 melee champions on bot lane, or a mage and a support and see how well youre doing against an adc/support duo.

54340481_DEL1 votes

Then they nerfed the crap out of him so now he can't be played anywhere, let alone bot, without feeling horrendous. GG Riot for sticking to your guns the whole pbe cycle & a few months post release before proceeding to bitch out in an attempt to avoid some of the backlash your horrendous experiment caused.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

DragonShea3 votes

Morde as an alternative to an ADC is the most fucked up thing i have ever heard. The Niche this guy is about is being tanky and hard hitting as fuck while using his attacks to sustain his shield. You either poke him down from afar or get the hell out of the way. Morde now is just a mess.

MorganFreemanBot3 votes

Whilst I like this idea, we already have a champion who does this.

Trundle

Trundle fills exactly the niche you're talking about. He steals his enemies armor, MR, and health to turn himself into a tanky beast who wades through the front line with impunity. He steals his enemies AD to make himself punish them harshly. He heals from the death of his enemies through his passive.

Everything you seem to want Morde to be.. Trundle is, Morde would just do it differently (his W stealing stats rather than his R, dealing damage giving him a shield rather than things dying healing him).

As a result, were your wishes to be fulfilled, Trundle would have to be re-built from the ground up so that they wouldn't be two champions who fulfill the same 'niche', something you yourself acknowledged that Riot is trying to avoid. And quite frankly, as a trundle main (or sort of, I'm playing less of him recently) I'm against reworking Trundle simply because Morde needs to be something else. Trundle has had a monopoly "I steal your stats to kill you with them, your death keeps me alive" niche since s1. Taking it away from him, to give it to Morde, to give him something else, would be asinine.

Lord Boltrix1 votes

The thing is, Mordekaiser and Trundle do operate on different wavelengths, and I can describe some differences between a tank-busting Mordekaiser and Trundle.

Trundle is able to force fights between his Pillar of Ice and his Frozen Domain, and once in range he can easily stick onto you unless you happen to be able to consistently kite him. Trundle is easily capable of taking towers by his lonesome, his auto-attacks naturally take down towers, and this is even after he lost the ability to Chomp towers. And Trundle can escape just as easily as he comes with the same combination of pillar and domain, and unless you're something ridiculous like a Quinn, Riven or an Udyr in terms of movement over the map, you aren't going to catch a Trundle unless you happen to lock your crowd control on him.

Mordekaiser as a tank buster would have the ability to steal stats (and more if my suggestion is followed), but he lacks so much of the innate movement that Trundle takes for granted, needing an ally with Harvester of Sorrow on them to follow up on an engagement unless he uses up a summoner spell. Mordekaiser is not self-sufficient, needing to either have his team take the dragon or to secure a kill on a cursed champion to make the most of his ultimate. Mordekaiser lacks the tools to be able to force a one on one engagement unless he expends a summoner or his opponent is really bad, giving this to him would just allow him to answer people who engage on him but underestimate him.

MorganFreemanBot1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Boltrix,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i19J0oTT,comment-id=000e0000,timestamp=2016-03-13T01:59:37.536+0000)

The thing is, Mordekaiser and Trundle do operate on different wavelengths, and I can describe some differences between a tank-busting Mordekaiser and Trundle.

(Snip)

To be blunt, that's not good enough.

What you're basically talking about is the difference between Velkoz and Brand or Anivia, or even Malz (Brand and Velkoz being the best comparison).

These champions are all different.. But really they're not. They're all ranged and bursty AP champs who have heavy combo potential, CC, and a massive ulti nuke. Sure some of the window-dressing is different (Anivia's ulti doesn't hit so hard and is a static effect, Velkoz gets to direct a massive lazer bear, Brand's bounces between targets!) but they do the same thing with some slight thematic and execution differences. The clearest outline of that being that they all murder a stacked team.

What's being proposed here, for Morde, would lead to that sort of situation.

"Trundle's a bit faster and better at catching people! Morde also does AP damage!"

Okay, great. So instead of simply a champion copy > pasted twice (Darius and Darius2) you have.. Two champions who share the exact same niche (drain tanking), go about it in almost the exact same way (survives by damage / death of enemies, steals large amounts of defensive stats, steals offensive ability). It even gets more asinine when you consider what Morde's W does, as it would be seriously similar to Trundle W. They both heal (well Trundle's makes his healing stronger, tomato tomoto), they both deal damage (Morde's literally does damage, Trundle's increases his damage output via increasing attack speed) and they both have work-arounds / requirements which Dashes do not (Trundle's is an unmoving zone where he moves faster, Morde moves faster moving towards the buffed target).

Similarities will happen between champions, it's inevitable. Darius Q is similar to Garen Q in some ways. Xin's charge isn't very distinctive from Irelia's charge, Janna's tornado and Zyra's root (the straight line skillshot) are striking similar. There's nothing inherently wrong with a few champion's having abilities which feel / operate in similar fashions every now and again, like I said it's inevitable.

The problem here is how much overlap these two would have in this case. This sort of overlap muddies their unique identities / niches and makes both of them the weaker for it. This is exactly the reason we see Velkoz (and many of the other mentioned champs) being reworked; their similarities are extremely glaring and the differences between them are largely thematic or small.

It's worth noting that, in my opinion, this is fine. I'm not on the "Everything needs oodles of counter play! Game health! Ra!" hype train that so many people are riding, I very much dislike the Morde rework and think something like this would work for him.

I'm merely pointing out why this is not going to happen - or at least should not - with Riot's current mentality. It would lead to not just stepping on Trundle's toes but actively murdering him, then wearing his skin as a suit. As a result we would either see Morde reworked again as a result (which Morde mains don't want) or Trundle reworked into a totally different Niche, and you shouldn't dump on one player base simple because another feels bad.

Spoofghoul2 votes

What if That Morde you described had 2 passives

1 The shield: pretty much works like it does now except it now works on all damage dealth. Shield generation increases by 1% ofr every 2% missing health

2 Black mist: Mordekaiser is permanently surrounded by a blackmist. This mist damages nearby enemies by 6 + 1 per level and restores health equal to the amount of damage dealth Increased 1% for every 2% missing shield. Damage dealth by this mist does not generate shield. It does apply spell effects

Mist gives great draintank power and works with his shield to keep him going and then allows for ways to use shield as a resource without him dying immediatly due to health drainage

he can then use both health and shield as a potential resource. It could also free up W possibly

crippler381 votes

maybe make his w let you move the mist around and increase the damage kinda like aurelion sol's w? instead of it surrounding morde he could control it and have it move like a separate entity for some shield into hp drain maybe? something small but noticeable so that if you miss with the mist you lose quite a bit of hp but if you hit with it from far away you keep your hp up. Maybe make it move slowly?

Spoofghoul1 votes

Yea like a big black fog when he activates his W reducing sight and dealing more damage, would drain shield to keep it up or something and then it fades away when his shield reaches 0 or it is deactivated

crippler381 votes

don't think it should reduce sight but yeah

Lord Graves III2 votes

Mordekaiser's Niche is as a team's core. Mordekaiser is a brutal damage threat that becomes harder to kill the better his damage is. Moreso than Garen, Darius, anyone short of Nasus, Mordekaiser ruins the goddamn day of anyone near him provided he has finished at least 2 items.

I'd argue he already IS the drain bruiser you want. He doesnt steal stats anymore because that strength was put into just killing people. His W doesnt give stats anymore because it just straight up steals health. His ult also steals health. Mordekaiser is a conquerer. He conquers everything he walks towards. Everything that stands against him stands briefly. (seriously. The only things that really oppose morde without help are specialized duelists like vayne or warwick, or equally scary late gamers like Nasus.)

Yes mordekaiser has to work some to make this fantasy a reality, but do you want to be just handed your wins? You wanna become undead Sauron you gotta farm it up.

His early game vulnerability does perhaps clash with this all powerful fantasy, but he has to be vulnerable somewhere. Also new Mordekaiser is so much less feast or famine than old mordekaiser that it is almost a joke.

I've read many of your Mordekaiser threads and I haven't been able to get a solid idea of what you want out of morde besides 1. Better. and 2. Solo laner. Can you help me better understand your wants for mordekaiser? Specifically with what you are willing to NOT have to get it? Cause I straight up think current Morde is a work of art. I wish he had a more complex model and more voice work but the kit is kinda beautiful. Ive even over time fallen for how he makes his support his lacky through their interactions. It feels hella Sauron/Eredin man.

Malicious Metal2 votes

What I want is simple; Giving Mordekaiser a kit that Riot's able to fully support. A kit without issues of game health and counterplay. A kit that takes Mordekaiser's defining aspects, Lore-wise and gameplay-wise and builds on what Morde's supposed to be.

In short; giving Mordekaiser a solid kit that can fit into the current state of league

EROTIC RAID BOSS2 votes

I mean, he did kind of have one as a bot lane non adc carry. Which makes a lot more sense today when you have quinn top kindred jungle etc

Just no one liked the role change and no one likes playing against morde either. I kinda think if they do a full vgu they should really do a full update. Just start over like they did with sion. literally the only good thing I can think of about his kit is his e looks cool. They should focus on making him fun to play as and against, and scrap that all damage no cc/mobility identity he has

Over Innsmouth1 votes

As much as I like Wild Hunt...

http://37.media.tumblr.com/51a4d76bf8658cf755ea7c1da4e46110/tumblr_mondhjBhpw1r60ay5o1_500.gif

Actually, when I started Morde was known as the undisputed king of 1v1, why not return him to that?

Meep Man1 votes

I kind of wish, like in Mordekaiser's lore, he killed armies and then brought them back from the dead to fight for him as his army. I wouldn't be against Mordekaiser being a barbaric Undead Army Leader. Make a ghost army with the enemy's minions and be their general. maybe sap their stats from them as well.

ViashinoWizard1 votes

While I agree it's very thematically appropriate for Morde, isn't stat stealing already Trundle's gimmick?

Lord Boltrix1 votes

See Metal, THIS is why we can't have nice things!

XD

But in all seriousness, you touched the nail on the head my friend: as someone without mobility or crowd control, Mordekaiser needs SOMETHING other than damage or healing to give himself openings. At the same time, it has to be something that enemy champions can answer to, otherwise Mordekaiser starts getting closer to that oppressive and unbalanced state he was in prior to his rework.

In fact, I could accept Mordekaiser having relatively low base defensive base stats (namely armor and health) if he was able to make up for this by draining said stats from enemies instead; in fact it would be appropriate balance-wise to have that, so Mordekaiser has times of vulnerability enemies can capitalize on, and which Mordekaiser players have to adapt around.

But how could we give him more team-based utility, since Riot already wants to make him interact more with his teammates (hey, metalheads need their groupies, right?) Let's go on your bit about territory conquering... perhaps if Mordekaiser is within his ultimate's cast range of a cursed target (650 at the current moment), he can cast Harvester of Sorrow on the cursed champion.

Now, this does not affect the cursed champion themselves (they already have the curse on them, even we need to cut them a break), but instead everything else... the cursed champion is treated like an ally minion/champion in this instance. So being near that enemy champion is a health hazard to the enemy team, and Mordekaiser is able to zone the enemy team away from the cursed champion, if one guy (say maybe a Braum trying to jump to protect and shield the cursed champion) is too close they can be caught with the Harvester reactivation... well, bad things can happen, especially if Mordekaiser is rocking Rylai's (again, the freezing northern winds, right?).

I'm not sure if it should apply the speed boost and/or crossing circles aoe damage if Mordekaiser and the cursed enemy champion are in range, I'm hesitant because I'd have to see how well Mordekaiser benefits just from being able to use an enemy champion that is cursed as a zoning tool. Another thing I would like to see is Mordekaiser being able to shred tanks, considering that his Mace of Spades is meant to be the ultimate in auto-attack damage, and simply building magic resist and health is able to just stonewall Mordekaiser.

In fact, I think as people are noting similarities in the comments, Mordekaiser could function off-hand as a tank-buster like Trundle in between stealing stats, and I think the best way to do this is to also include an extra in Mordekaiser's Mace of Spades: when damaging a cursed enemy champion with auto-attacks (normal or enhanced by Mace of Spades), Mordekaiser steals 1 / 1.5 / 2 / 2.5 / 3% of their maximum health as magic damage (based on the level of Mace of Spades) every 4 / 3 / 2 seconds (depending on the level of his ultimate.)

This built-in Grasp of the Undying (only instead stealing based on THEIR health) addresses tanks building health to wall Mordekaiser specifically and only applies onto a cursed enemy champion, so Mordekaiser has an opt to take down tanks if they try to duel him... however he has to make a choice in cursing that tank, and not anyone else later down the line.

In the meantime, building health and magic resist will still be the best way to deal with Mordekaiser since this isn't true damage (I'd rather avoid any true damage in Mordekaiser's kit, it tends to cause more problems than it solves it seems); yet building such will not be so supremely effective against Mordekaiser, and I think that is something that we can all agree is rather fair.

Khâmul1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Boltrix,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i19J0oTT,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-03-12T17:32:31.888+0000)

See Metal, THIS is why we can't have nice things!

XD

But in all seriousness, you touched the nail on the head my friend: as someone without mobility or crowd control, Mordekaiser needs SOMETHING other than damage or healing to give himself openings. At the same time, it has to be something that enemy champions can answer to, otherwise Mordekaiser starts getting closer to that oppressive and unbalanced state he was in prior to his rework.

In fact, I could accept Mordekaiser having relatively low base defensive base stats (namely armor and health) if he was able to make up for this by draining said stats from enemies instead; in fact it would be appropriate balance-wise to have that, so Mordekaiser has times of vulnerability enemies can capitalize on, and which Mordekaiser players have to adapt around.

But how could we give him more team-based utility, since Riot already wants to make him interact more with his teammates (hey, metalheads need their groupies, right?) Let's go on your bit about territory conquering... perhaps if Mordekaiser is within his ultimate's cast range of a cursed target (650 at the current moment), he can cast Harvester of Sorrow on the cursed champion.

Now, this does not affect the cursed champion themselves (they already have the curse on them, even we need to cut them a break), but instead everything else... the cursed champion is treated like an ally minion/champion in this instance. So being near that enemy champion is a health hazard to the enemy team, and Mordekaiser is able to zone the enemy team away from the cursed champion, if one guy (say maybe a Braum trying to jump to protect and shield the cursed champion) is too close they can be caught with the Harvester reactivation... well, bad things can happen, especially if Mordekaiser is rocking Rylai's (again, the freezing northern winds, right?).

I'm not sure if it should apply the speed boost and/or crossing circles aoe damage if Mordekaiser and the cursed enemy champion are in range, I'm hesitant because I'd have to see how well Mordekaiser benefits just from being able to use an enemy champion that is cursed as a zoning tool. Another thing I would like to see is Mordekaiser being able to shred tanks, considering that his Mace of Spades is meant to be the ultimate in auto-attack damage, and simply building magic resist and health is able to just stonewall Mordekaiser.

In fact, I think as people are noting similarities in the comments, Mordekaiser could function off-hand as a tank-buster like Trundle in between stealing stats, and I think the best way to do this is to also include an extra in Mordekaiser's Mace of Spades: when damaging a cursed enemy champion with auto-attacks (normal or enhanced by Mace of Spades), Mordekaiser steals 1 / 1.5 / 2 / 2.5 / 3% of their maximum health as magic damage (based on the level of Mace of Spades) every 4 / 3 / 2 seconds (depending on the level of his ultimate.)

This built-in Grasp of the Undying (only instead stealing based on THEIR health) addresses tanks building health to wall Mordekaiser specifically and only applies onto a cursed enemy champion, so Mordekaiser has an opt to take down tanks if they try to duel him... however he has to make a choice in cursing that tank, and not anyone else later down the line.

In the meantime, building health and magic resist will still be the best way to deal with Mordekaiser since this isn't true damage (I'd rather avoid any true damage in Mordekaiser's kit, it tends to cause more problems than it solves it seems); yet building such will not be so supremely effective against Mordekaiser, and I think that is something that we can all agree is rather fair.

item 3116 item 3151 : congrats,you can shred tanks (no troll,it's working)

Dataless1 votes

Stat stealing and tank busting has always kinda been Trundle's thing though...

chipndip11 votes

A lot of champs are suffering from lacking a strategic niche in the game. Other champs are suffering from niche overlap. The problem with the Juggernaut patch is that, outside of Darius (who was luckily a certified melee lane bully before now), NONE of the reworked champs were given anything relevant to the game's progress with. Garen is set up to kill the last person to land a kill, but what if that's the support? Why not make it so that he goes after the guy with the highest bounty? So he has a useful target to go for? Skarner controls his own objectives that are littered on the map...but they're all so far out of the way from the lanes that they don't benefit him while he's in lanes after laning phase. Why not make it so that he gets some benefit for controlling them even if he's not in those circles, so this "objective control" thing can be more influential without him having to invade, contest a drag/baron/herald/scuttle, or get invaded? Illaoi...has no niche. Her kit just doesn't add up to anything. She's just slowly walking damage.

Another thing is that Morde's kit is so...bad. I'm sorry, it's just bad. It has no real means of linking his moves together. He has no slows, he needs someone to help him gain movement speed unless he has Ghost (which I doubt he takes), he can't dash, he can't blink without Flash, and he can't pull champs to him or pull himself to champs. If we're going to get past this CertainlyTrainwreck of a rework attempt, he needs a tool that can allow him to properly utilize his own kit on his own. Right now, Mordekaiser is just a confused mess. Just cause he's a Juggernaut doesn't mean he can't have some relatively mild ways of sticking to opponents. Most others have one, and those that don't are Illaoi really bad Illaoi right now.

Veraska1 votes

In his lore, mordekaiser was a ancient warlord who had a massive empire and was bound to a giant suit of armor so he could forevor rule his domain with a literal iron fist, now he's returned and made his kingdom in the shadow isles. One day he'll reclaim the rest if his thrown.

I think if there's a morde rework coming I'd like it to focus on that narrative hook, his micro counterplay Is pretty low, and with his combat patterns it'll always be so, so with the bot lane rework they wanted to focus his counterplay from a macro perspective, I think morde should retain that aspect while having the vesatility to play duo and solo lane (depending on what side of the map you want him to rule)

So to me mordekaiser thematic and strategic niche should be that of a conqueror, someone who takes control of the board by spreading his deathly mist across the rift.

That's my light thought on it at least, I'm in the middle of a 24 charity stream so I might not be too coherent but you were talking about strategic niche and "mordes empire" is something I've been ideating for awhile

La Barbotte1 votes

cool ideas, on a side note have you seen the video of morde soloing baron at 20 minutes ? youtube video from PhyLol (i look like a sellout)

ForeverLaxx1 votes

I think the problem stems from the idea that Riot thinks a generalist is bad and believes that every champion should fit into a specific "best in this situation" model. What ends up happening is that you either end up with a ton of overlap (where multiple champions fit the conditions, removing the idea that one is best for the job), or you end up with a roster of over-specialized choices that almost never have their designed niche come into play. Generalists are good because they can sorta-fill rolls if the primary choice gets banned out while tending to be good choices to get comfortable with the game on. Maybe the problem is that Riot doesn't know how to make a generalist without them being too good at everything instead of passable at most things.

Now, I'm not saying that Morde is a generalist. He really wasn't before, and he's definitely not after his terrible rework. I'm just commenting on what I think is the underlying problem with Riot's current design goals. They're trying to force Morde into a mold he was never built for.

Saphixia1 votes

Last time we had a generalist they dominated the meta cough Jarvan cough

ForeverLaxx1 votes

Which is Riot's fault. That's why I'm saying that it seems Riot doesn't know how to make a generalist without making them too good at certain things instead of just passable at them.

NazZomLord1 votes

Strategic niche: Winning

Dengeden1 votes

I'm not sure how I feel about an AP version of Trundle but he wouldn't have old Mord's problem (too much a lane bully to be a teamfighter or splitpusher). +1

MealReadytoEat1 votes

As happy as I am he's now semi-viable in solo lanes, I really want Morde to be viable as bot lane, I've got over 200k mastery from playing him bot lane, but right now it makes me cry. I'm still doing it though.

As a side note, what I think he needs most is the cast time on his e and reactivation of w removed, loosing .25 seconds on whats already the slowest champion in the game makes them feel extremely punishing to cast, especially considering the delay means any ranged champion will get out the range during the .25 second windup.

Du Ma Mi1 votes

I happen to LOVE his new niche!

"Mordekaiser, he can Q you 3 times if your team has enough CC to keep you there for 4 seconds".

I find it to be one of the most interesting niches in the game - The Dependent Q'er.

Kappa.

Neobus1 votes

I have almost every morde skin, he was my first top laner back in 2013. or sooner. no idea. anyway with the current morde he just feels. well. bad. unhealthy. assassin like and requiring a lead or just falls SOOOO behind with his lack of durability. MM 's idea is amazing and i really hope a red/ riot employee reads this. League is a huge game, with ALOT of players and riot is doing their best to reply to as much feedback as they can, but we outnumber them probably 1/1000 easily Cut riot some slack guys and be patient.

Need Gold 4 Tent1 votes

Lol, I leave LoL for 2 months and you're still around about Morde. That's dedication alright, how are things looking on the PBE for him?

Glory to God1 votes

"Mordekaiser's rework".

Alright. Hold on. Why are you so confident that he will be reworked? He already got 'one' last year. It's not morde's fault that he works so bad. There are a ton of champs that need attention first. A lot. Besides it's not only morde's problem. It's a juggernaut problem in general because all of their favored items are abused by other people which get more benefits than they would: item 3748 Fiora item 3025 Ezreal item 3053 Kalista KogMaw item 3742 Fiora and so on. But yeah, you got popular thanks to your obsession and I am going to be downvoted, calling it now.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

So basically if his W gave him more resistances he'd be ok?

Malevolent Metal1 votes

But isnt Mordekaiser niche to wreck face of all those who are mele fighters?

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