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Some clarity to Aatrox changes and flawed reasoning behind the changes @ricklessabandon

Failog··3 votes·1,482 views

For Riot to miss the mark so hard, there has to be a reason. From reading ricklessabandon thoughts on Aatrox, it is clear he had no idea what Aatrox's issues really were.

He had this idea that Aatrox needed a "window of power". Why? So other players could easily shut him down? He was already very easy to shut down. There was obvious and easy counter-play such as building item 3143 item 3110 item 3123 or playing champions that slow attack speed or have reliable stuns.

This window of power is

A)weaker than his old passive and B)leaves him vulnerable to easy assassinations when his Blood Rush is not there, which it often will not be.

Meanwhile I see Nasus going from 50% health to 100% health in a matter of seconds from a few Q hits (while doing massive damage compared to Aatrox) with his built in lifesteal. So thats not a problem, but Aatrox being a great 1v1 fighter who heals is?

Suggesting that we should build him more tanky is nonsense for these reason:

1)unlike a champion like Olaf, Aatrox doesn't get free resistances. So building all those HP and health items still leaves with with low resistances compared to other top laners.

2)He doesn't do much damage from abilities the way Olaf Renekton Nasus and others do. He still needs to be able to attack, which means he still is very dependent on Attack Speed which he now gets less of from his Passive, and has it less often than before. This is a huge net loss in attack speed bonus and how often it is present.

3)He doesn't have any built in crits, true damage, significant magic damage (now) or %health damage or armor penetration or reduction abilities.

Furthermore, the window of power takes away his ability to

1)Split push as well 2)Be resistant to tower dives 3)Be able to tower dive

You won't have Blood Rush when you are hugging your turret. You are even more vulnerable now to someone like Renekton dashing in and stunning you and killing you fast and dashing out.

You won't have Blood Rush when the enemy is pushed to their turret. It will drain because you are not in combat with them. This also makes it WAY easier for you to get ganked and severly punishes you for pushing a lane.

You wont enjoy a constant attack speed buff when pushing a few waves of minions as you Blood Rush will fill up, give you 4 seconds of bonuses and then drain. This makes wave clearing much slower.

So Rcklessabandon, you destroyed his identify as

1)A great 1v1 fighter 2)A split pusher 3)A tower diver 4)a strong tower dive defense champion 5)A jungler 6)A champion who could build things like item 3124 item 3146

And you made him

1)weaker 2)easier to kill 3)and forced him to be an AD only fighter in top lane.

And also, in case you think all of this is justified because he doesn't damage himself now, its not. First off all, most Aatrox mains will tell you they barely notice the health costs. 2nd, we advocated flat health costs. I don't need free Q or flat 30 on E. It can increase with level. So to say that is a reason to neuter his power is bonkers. I feel like Riot thinks they threw Aatrox mains a bone with this. They didn't. There a lot of popular champions that are manaless...and they nearly all do more damage than Aatrox or are a better tank.

Another think to realize is that Aatrox wasn't was weak as Riot or many of you non-Aatrox players think:

He benefited more from item 3065 changes and Fervor Mastery than most other top laners. He benefited a lot from item 3006 Attack Speed buff. His win rate was just under 50%.

A lot of you seem to think that Aatrox mains just want Riot to make him OP, and maybe that is what ricklessabandon thought so he ignored our input from the last 2 years figuring we would take him in the wrong direction.

However, Aatrox players are very aware of how easily he could be OP with buffs in his old state. If we wanted him buffed to be OP we would just play another champion. We like the challenge, and with practice and time we could play him in a way to hold up against nearly any champion. He had the capability in his kit when deployed the right way at the right times.

The funny thing is his win rate probably would have move slightly north of 50% if they added the CD reduction to his Q and base health increase to the old Aatrox.

25 Comments

TheHappyReaperz2 votes

I did not enjoy health costs on Aatrox. Those weren't a good part of his kit, not in the slightest. With the current Aatrox, I can Q to get to lane faster, and arrive to lane faster. Old Aatrox I'd arrive in lane with ~20-30% of my health gone. The percent health cost on his E was also really irritating, because, come late game, it felt like you were doing more damage to yourself than your E was doing to your enemies. Having a cost on Blood Price made sense, if it dealt enough damage to justify the health lost. However, that should be a flat health drain/health scaling drain, not one scaling with your AD, as that punishes you for building damage.

In terms of changes to Aatrox, the best way to give him windows of power and still be able to be countered/fair to play against, would be to shift him from an AA-based champion. Give him windows were his auto's do more, or have some special effect, but having him be auto attack based will always result in balance problems.

Failog2 votes

Guess you missed the part on just having increasing flat health costs instead of percentages a a better solution to % health cost or neutering him for free costs.

"Give him windows were his auto's do more, or have some special effect, but having him be auto attack based will always result in balance problems."

I did.

Did you even really read my post? I can tell you didn't read the whole thing, don't skim, and then edit your comment to reflect that so I can respond to someone who took the time to read it.

TheHappyReaperz2 votes

"First off all, most Aatrox mains will tell you they barely notice the health costs."

The first part of my comment is to inform you that this statement is false.

The second part of my comment, is what I think, not a review of your changes. My apologies if I failed to make that clear to you. If you want me to just review your things, and not say voice my opinions, so be it. Here we go then:

Passive: This passive is pretty bad. I'm just saying, it solves none of the problems people have with the current passive, nor any of Riot's problems with the old. In lane, you get a grand total of a 10 AD and 15% AS. Great, that really helps the sluggish feel of his auto's as his base AS is pretty low in comparison to having your bloodwell stacked.

Bloodwell doesn't drain? How does this create any counterplay in the slightest. You would always have your Bloodwell full, basically meaning you just have the active on its CD, since filling the Bloodwell gives nothing passively.

How much is the Bloodwell? Is it 100 like live? Or does it scale like the old version? If it doesn't, the revive is pretty trash. Say you have about 1200 health. Reviving would give you a four second shield for 100 + 120. That, that is useless. If it does, its broken. You revive with a massive shield, you have 50% TENACITY. No. Just no.

Another problem with the revive, is the health you have. Do you have health? Or, after your 4s are up, do you just keel over and die?

Q: The AD and HP scaling aren't bad, however, dual scalings are hard to balance, especially ones that you can get on the same item. I don't really have any problem with this, except, wait, the knockup radius increases with your health? HOW IS THAT NOT OP? Aatrox's Q has a low CD for a dash + CC. Adding a massive AOE knockup to it would mean two things.

  1. The skill in landing the ability is gone. I like having skills where aiming is actually important, and not an afterthought.

  2. Aatrox would be played full HP Tank. That's it. You would rush 45% CDR, buy as much health as possible, and just Q in teamfights. Woo, exciting gameplay.

W: Again with the double scaling. Health + AD is not a good combo, for a scaling. It allows you to get damage from damage, and damage from tank stats. Also, this skill doesn't do any damage. At all. i don't know if you meant to keep it, "Press W to sustain for days", or its something you forgot to add.

E: This is the only change I agree with.

R: Does it deal damage? Also, what's with the flat AR/MR shred. Do you realize how little 10 AR is? This would be essentially useless against tanks, having effect only on squishy's, who don't build enough AR/MR for it to be a problem. Also, 10 - 15% AS. THAT IS NOTHING. That is a Dagger. It would be borderline unnoticeable for the majority of your team.

My Suggestions:

Switch Health/AD scalings to AP/AD. Then Aatrox can actually be hybrid, as well as make AP Aatrox actually viable.

Make his ult actually useful.

His W would be a massive heal, I don't know what your talking about. It would be either useless, or overpowered. You can't have that much healing with no drawback.

Failog2 votes

"The first part of my comment is to inform you that this statement is false"

Based on what? Aatrox mains at Platinum will tell you that the costs didnt matter because of his insane lifesteal.

"This passive is pretty bad. I'm just saying, it solves none of the problems people have with the current passive, nor any of Riot's problems with the old. In lane, you get a grand total of a 10 AD and 15% AS. Great, that really helps the sluggish feel of his auto's as his base AS is pretty low in comparison to having your bloodwell stacked.

Bloodwell doesn't drain? How does this create any counterplay in the slightest. You would always have your Bloodwell full, basically meaning you just have the active on its CD, since filling the Bloodwell gives nothing passively. "

The numbers can be tweaked. Stop getting lost in the bushes and focus on the big picture. It absoutely solves 2 problems. The first one is that is gives him an always active bonus AD and AS, while encouraging him to team fight more because of it. The 2nd problem it fixes his that his shield AS AN IDEA, GET YOUR MYOPIC BRAIN OUT OF TH DETAILS, would help him not just a sitting duck after he dies, and allow it to not be dependent on Blood Rush, but also not as strong as 30% health revive.

"The skill in landing the ability is gone. I like having skills where aiming is actually important, and not an afterthought. "

His Q is not an easy skill shot to lane. Done perfectly you will knock up 1 person in most cases. Aatrox lacks utility and this would help him have more utility.

"Aatrox would be played full HP Tank. That's it. You would rush 45% CDR, buy as much health as possible, and just Q in teamfights. Woo, exciting gameplay."

Are you kidding me with this? This is what Riot is CURRENTLY TRYING TO PUSH ON US, only it SUCKS the way they have it.

" Also, this skill doesn't do any damage. At all. i don't know if you meant to keep it, "Press W to sustain for days", or its something you forgot to add."

Again, seriously? I said it would DOUBLE HIS PASSIVE BONUSES. SO instead of 10 AD and 15 AS with one enemy nearby, he would have 20 AD and 30 AS for the duration.

Don't bother responding. It is so obvious you missed most of what I said in a rush to give me you 2 cents. Aatrox as he is right now is VERY BAD. End of story.

TheHappyReaperz2 votes

"Based on what? Aatrox mains at Platinum will tell you that the costs didnt matter because of his insane lifesteal."

And I will tell you, they do. Your "insane lifesteal" is applied exclusively through AA. If you are ever in a situation where can not AA an enemy, you will not heal. Your poke and initiation will further drain your health, and you have no way of getting it back.

"The 2nd problem it fixes his that his shield AS AN IDEA, GET YOUR MYOPIC BRAIN OUT OF TH DETAILS, would help him not just a sitting duck after he dies, and allow it to not be dependent on Blood Rush, but also not as strong as 30% health revive."

You did nothing to clarify my actual questions about this passive. First of, "his that his shield" means nothing, as a statement. If your going to respond with an air of superiority, at least take the time to be correct in what you state. It would not help him be less of a sitting duck, instant CC would help with that. What your proposing is to just make him tankier when he revives, which is stupid.

"His Q is not an easy skill shot to lane. Done perfectly you will knock up 1 person in most cases. Aatrox lacks utility and this would help him have more utility."

It's an initiation ability. It is meant to knockup a single person, to allow you to get of the necessary hits for Blood Price, and make it harder for the enemy to respond. It is not a teamfighting utility ability.

"Are you kidding me with this? This is what Riot is CURRENTLY TRYING TO PUSH ON US, only it SUCKS the way they have it."

You say Riot is forcing us to play Aatrox as a tank, yet you add pointless utility to his kit, and make his Q more of a Vanguard's style of ability.

"Again, seriously? I said it would DOUBLE HIS PASSIVE BONUSES. SO instead of 10 AD and 15 AS with one enemy nearby, he would have 20 AD and 30 AS for the duration."

When an ability has a passive and an active, normally when that ability states it doubles its passive bonus, you would assume, like the logical, reasonable human being that you are, that it means the passive of the ability. Regardless, 20 AD is nothing. You know how much AD Trundle gets from his Q? 40. And it deals bonus damage, and it reduces the enemy's AD by 20.

Seriously? This is the best you could do? So eager to get your half-baked plan for a terrible Aatrox kit out there, that you ignore criticism and remove the kit from your post. Bravo sir, you disappoint me.

Failog1 votes

"And I will tell you, they do. Your "insane lifesteal" is applied exclusively through AA. If you are ever in a situation where can not AA an enemy, you will not heal. Your poke and initiation will further drain your health, and you have no way of getting it back."

God damn kid, you really have nothing between those ears huh? Yes, his healing is through AA. And guess what? It STILL IS BUT WORSE.

"When an ability has a passive and an active, normally when that ability states it doubles its passive bonus, you would assume, like the logical, reasonable human being that you are, that it means the passive of the ability. Regardless, 20 AD is nothing. You know how much AD Trundle gets from his Q? 40. And it deals bonus damage, and it reduces the enemy's AD by 20."

20 AD is nothing unless you are near 3 enemy champions, how its 30 AD and 60 when you activate W. You really can't read huh?

You are lost. My post isnt about my plan. It was for clarity about why the changes failed. You are so focus on the ideas I present AS LOOSE EXAMPLES that you can't focus on anything else.

You are literally one of the worst kind of human beings.

TheHappyReaperz2 votes

Oh my god, like literally the worst.

Sorry, that's how I read that. My apologies that you lack the innate understanding that having an ability that is only useful in teamfights is useless in laning. But please, proceed to make Aatrox's laning phase even worse. Anyway, I'm off to go and be constructive, try to do something about that horrible pessimistic, supremacist attitude of yours, bucko. Ta-ta!

Failog1 votes

Imagine that, and ult that only is useful in team fights.

Why do small minded people like you insist on trying to make champions more similar than different? So what if you shift power to other abilities to compensate for an ult that doesnt help as much when solo?

Small minded. Programmed drone.

I will gladly skype chat with you face to face and systemically destroy all of your arguments and reasoning.

Just say when.

TheHappyReaperz2 votes

Better yet, I'll see ya on a handy-dandy website called Debate.org. Feel free to sign up mate, try to use actual reasoning this time.

SuperLuigiLXIV2 votes

I am severely impressed that you think you're the one speaking for Aatrox players and he isn't.

TheHappyReaperz2 votes

I speak for myself. I let others speak for themselves.

SuperLuigiLXIV2 votes

And then tell them that they're wrong.

In the face of all kinds of evidence and MANY mains agreeing with him, and none agreeing with you.

Have you considered letting others speak for you?

TheHappyReaperz2 votes

Back up a second dude, and consider that last statement. That's what Dictators say when they are making moves on a government.

SuperLuigiLXIV1 votes

Also what normal people with a sarcastic streak say to people to legitimately think they're right and everyone else is wrong regardless of if they're better or more experienced at the subject in question.

Just saying.

TheHappyReaperz1 votes

I may not be right, but I am never wrong.

Rux1001 votes

[slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

Failog1 votes

Except when you don't. You literally tried to speak for everyone else when you said that Aatrox mains cared about the health costs.

Its so amazing how many people like you dredge themselves up from the sewers of human intellect and try to pass yourselves off as smart people.

TheHappyReaperz2 votes

I said, and I quote, "I did not enjoy health costs on Aatrox."

Failog1 votes

"First off all, most Aatrox mains will tell you they barely notice the health costs."

You:

"The first part of my comment is to inform you that this statement is false"

That is the same as speaking for everyone.

But please keep showcasing your stupidity.

Failog1 votes

Yup, so, a coward as I figured. Wont talk to me face to face.

TheHappyReaperz1 votes

I don't have a mic. [zombie-nunu-tears]

Failog1 votes

Yup. Coward AND a liar.

TheHappyReaperz1 votes

http://akphoto4.ask.fm/274/952/636/-419996978-1sifhhe-5ek601lb8io5acf/original/avatar.jpg

SaltyKracka1 votes

Mmm, yes. Childishness, whining, irrelevant comparisons to other champs, an overinflated sense of ego despite having nothing of note or worth.

Exactly as expected.

Failog1 votes

Mmm, yes, devoid of rational rebuttal, trolls posts on topics he doesn't care about because he has no life.

Exactly as expected.

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