base stats of early game vs. late game champions are not very distinguished.

BluePolarizer··2 votes·1,632 views

The kits of an early game champion (Graves, Pantheon) are very different than the kits of a late game champion (Vayne, Poppy). Yet their base stats are almost the same. In fact, there are ludicrous cases of melee fighters having lower base HP than "fragile" ADCs. Riven has lower base HP than Draven and MF despite being melee.

Yasuo has lower base HP than Caitlyn. Vayne's base AD is ludicrous. She has the 3rd highest base AD out of all ADCs; only Graves and Kalista are higher. Why does a late game hypercarry have HIGHER base damage than champs that are weaker early game?

Speaking of base ADs, Kalista has higher base AD than Darius, Vi, Riven, Gangplank, J4 and Pantheon.

I believe that a lane bully hypercarry is very bad design.

A champion should either have good base stats and linear scaling, or good exponential scaling but bad base stats and needs alot of items to ramp up.

If a champ hits "late game" at 1 item and has better base stats than champs that are "early game", then we have a problem.

16 Comments

67chrome1 votes

base stats of early game vs. late game champions are not very distinguished.


That makes the game much easier to understand and more user-friendly. Base stats being a solid base rather than some wild crazy ride is a good thing, as giving crazy variations runs into a ton of design issues.

The biggest issue with differing base stats is you make all flat bonuses mean substantially different things. a 10 AD bonus in an item or a 10 AD bonus on a steroid change in value substantially based on context if some champions start with 30 AD and others with 80.

With base stats being largely the same: it allows a 10AD bonus in items, masteries, runes, or abilities to mean largely the same thing accross all champions, where 10 AD equals 10 AD.

It also allows abilities and how abilities interact to tell the whole story of how a champion works. With base stats being really similar, you don't have to worry about a 10 AD steroid actually costing you 10 AD from your base stats, costing a skill point just to put you even with your opponents. Finding out skills opperate as such is extreemly annoying.


Also - with defining champions through base stats you run into substantial item-scaling issues.

If you set up a tank to have 1000 HP and only do 50 damage per AA where you set up an Assassin to have 500 HP and do 100 damage per AA, they're both balanced. It takes the tank 10 hits to kill the assassin and the assassin 10 hits to kill the tank in a straight-up slugfest.

However: When you introduce a +500 HP item and +50 AD item things get awkward.

On a tank, the +500 HP item only increases their 1000 HP to 1500, a 50% boost: or a 50% boost in overall power. However, the +50 AD item doubles their strength: boosting their 50 AD hit to a 100 AD hit, a 100% increase. The inverse issue arises on the DPS champion.

So with HP item vs. HP item: the glass-cannon wins:

1500 HP 50 AD vs. 1000 HP 100 AD

  • tank kills in 20 hits, assassin in 15.

With AD item vs. AD item: the tank wins:

1000 HP 100 AD vs. 500 HP 150 AD

  • tank kills in 5 hits, assassin in 6.67

TLDR:

Base stats being the same prevents confusion. You read a champion's kit, you know what they do. You don't have to worry about spreadsheets with their stats compared to everyone else.

Consistent bases also prevent pushing a champion into their opposite intended roll due to how flat bonuses scale.

BluePolarizer1 votes

So does that justify Yasuo having lower base HP than Caitlyn despite Caitlyn being a ranged ADC and Yasuo supposedly being a light fighter?

Having +10 AD mean the same thing is a bad thing. Having items should mean different things for different champions. Otherwise, what reason is there to ever pick an early game champion? Before you answer that, some statistics: Lucian lost almost every single game in the LCS this month despite a high pick rate. Lucian is an early game ADC. Why would you ever pick an early gamer in a carry position if they are just gonna get outscaled by a late gamer after just a longsword of stats?

TehNACHO1 votes

His shield.

League already has a problem of not being new player friendly, let's not make the problem even worse by making game logic incredibly unfriendly to everyone then.

BluePolarizer1 votes

you know why the new player experience is not friendly?

Because of smurfs, hyperscaling lane bullies that are extremely frustrating to play against and a toxic community.

Champs scaling the way they should be (strong late means weak early, not strong late means just not as strong early and still able to bully champs with much weaker late game scaling) is not part of the bad new player experience.

lol @ shield. The whole purpose of the shield is to make him beefy enough to survive front line combat. K, how is making Yasuo squishier, and having his shield just make him equal to the average champ, supposed to help him survive front line combat?

TehNACHO1 votes

You know the weirdest thing is is that new players tend to get paired with new players and smurfs tend to get paired with smurfs.

It's not a coincidence that it's usually smurf players that complain about smurfs the most.

And uhh, equal to the average champ? In the Caitlyn example, he has 618 effective health with shield level 1 to 2422 effective health at level 18 vs Caitlyn's 524 at level one and 1884 at 18.

BluePolarizer1 votes

You have to include the sustain from BT, the shield, and the range. Yasuo can't afford to go BT because he needs more than just GA for defense, due to being a melee with no dodging/invulnerability/invisibility skills. It is ludicrous that Yasuo has merely 30% more HP than Caitlyn with a gimmicky shield on assuming cait has no BT, almost equal mobility in a teamfight, yet has 5x less range.

TehNACHO1 votes

Yasuo can't go BT? (Go down to find his highest win rate build)

BluePolarizer1 votes

he's still losing like crazy.

The yasuos I see now usually go item 3087 item 3031 item 3153 item 3143 item 3006 item 3026 or another 2 defensive item build rather than all offensive items + GA.

TehNACHO1 votes

Which is a point unrelated to how base stats should be, since everybody should know at this point that it's Yasuo's scaling that's screwing his balance.

BluePolarizer1 votes

his scaling is fine. If he actually gets items, he's amazing. The problem IS his base stats. Without items he's useless.

TehNACHO1 votes

Talking about his passive here.

Which is actual public opinion one of his biggest problems.

Seriously do you live under a rock or something. You seem to be the most uninformed speaker on the boards ever.

BluePolarizer1 votes

I'm uninformed yet I get to plat due to game knowledge because I play on 100+ ping all the time, so it can't be mechanics. Maybe theres something that I know that you don't.

TehNACHO1 votes

You're in plat and still this uninformed.

Truly I am impressed.

Cindikle1 votes

Kalista has high base AD because her passive reduces her basic attack's damage by 90%.

This change kept her damage from base AD the same but reduces what she gains from bonus AD.

Kind of a unique case and not something to base balance around because of it.

Renaille1 votes

It's not all about stats. Lee sin has a bad late game because his kit isn't good for teamfighting, likewise graves short range impedes team fighting. Caitlyn's mid game dps is low but her safety in range makes her strong late game.

BluePolarizer1 votes

If Lee Sin had 50 base HP he'd be terribad. if he had 5000 base HP he'd be insanely OP. Thus base stats do matter. Caitlyn has an amazing late game with extreme safety and range yet she has more base HP than Yasuo who is an extremely unsafe low range champion.

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