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@Riot, isn't it about time to remove/rework Frozen Mallet?

Malicious Metal··72 votes·3,863 views

item 3022 Has been a problematic item for as long as I can remember as abuse cases pop up every once in a while, making a lot of player's lives hell.

It is an item, that does not provide a lot of intuitive gameplay and is most usually built in order to screw with immobile champions and/or melee champions while making the champions building it nigh-untouchable and inescapable.

And unlike item 3116 the slow applies on every auto attack and isn't bound to hitting a spell, while also having more stats tied to it AND having a higher slow amount, DOUBLE that of rylais for melee champions.

Gnar Teemo Kennen With Mallet are some of the worst experiences to play against and Gnar in particular is being kept weak simply because he can really abuse the item to become the undisputed king of top lane whenever he's strong.

Hell, even our favorite Weeb Samurai Yasuo builds it, usually as his CORE, giving him even more sticking power.

In fact, I think Mallet does provide these champions with a way to overcome their inherent weaknesses that they were balanced around like most of the ranged ones being weak to being collapsed on.

So, isn't it about time to remove this item or at least rework it while finally being able to balance these champions around something that isn't a gimmicky item?

100 Comments

AFilthyCaitMain21 votes

Teemo using it scarred me mentally

Sexy Jack Rabbit16 votes

Teemo scars me mentally

Ralanr14 votes

But...Sion loves frozen mallet.

Malicious Metal20 votes

And he's hard countered by it too if you think about it.

Gnar and Teemo in particular can just endlessly kite him as, unlike Sej (who I consider a great counter pick to them, yes, top lane Sej) he's a tank without any form of low cd gap closer. So he's just getting chipped down from range, unable to do anything against them.

It's the old Rylais-Morde dilemma, where the old Rylais made it extremely hard for Morde to keep pace with all the mages but he himself liked the item.

LankPants3 votes

who I consider a great counter pick to them, yes, top lane Sej

Why do people still find this suprising though? You give a champ ranged farm/harass, great shoving, quick burst trades, a near immunity to poke when played correctly and strong escapes (which she already had) and they become pretty good top lane.

Honestly I think within a couple of months jungle Sej will be dead, she has the exact same problems she's always had, weak early duellist, poor clears and slow clears. She's just a better top laner since the change, especially if you rush Triforce to get that last little bit of burst you need.

Funkin Dunkin1 votes

I've been playing Sej top since season 3. This isn't anything new

KoKoboto2 votes

My full health juggernaut zombie mode Sion carry would not work if they removed frozen mallet :C item 1401 item 3022 item 3748 item 3800 item 3083

3TWarrior1 votes

lol, I loved it in season 5 when I could have 2k health by level 6 on sion by using his passive in the jungle and just building health items and bami's cinder XD

Big Lincoln12 votes

would be nice, juggernauts could use a rework for it to be more favorable towards them rather than mobile/ranged %%%%s like gnar and yasuo, but how do we go about doing that such that what's usable for them isn't cancer on another group of champions

Variks the Loyal2 votes

Instead of flat health, it could grant a % of the bonus health you already have, like Steraks?

Malicious Metal7 votes

Windowed power most likely.

I haven't put much thought into what it could be reworked into, I just think the current version is very unintuitive and feels pretty archaic. It IS an ancient design anyways.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Make it an active is most definitively the best solution.

macromite3 votes

that item already existed and no one ever used it.

GreatWhiteNorth4 votes

Juggernaughts meta wasn't fun.

Big Lincoln6 votes

you'd whine regardless of what meta it is

let juggernauts be good just like any other group gets to be good

LordGeovanni1 votes

What juggarnaut meta it was darius and mordekasier meta.

Mannny2 votes

Gnar is supposed to get it tbh. What else will he get if all the slows he has in his kit to kite his enemies is q?

LankPants6 votes

He'd have to actually land Qs, god forbid.

It's also not like you wouldn't buff him in other ways anyway.

Mannny1 votes

How is he supposed to kite while managing to position himself to grab the Q? Of course as a Gnar main I can do it but it takes tons of skill and muscle memory to throw it correctly while still being able to kite. Not only that but it is just 1 slow ability with a relatively high CD.

Chembaron Yamada7 votes

The thing is that the slow on his Q is not the only kite mechanic in Gnars kit. Mini-Gnars entire kit is about kiting.

Q: Slows all enemies hit W: Permanent movement speed buff as long as you keep proccing it E: Hop, can even jump over an enemy trying to block the way

Especially since his W doesn't have a CD unlike most other 3-hit-passives, he can be pretty frustrating for immobile champions (basically uncatchable). Please don't act like slows are the only kiting mechanic in this game, dashes and movement speed buffs are just as well.....

LankPants6 votes

Exactly this, Frozen Mallet just pushes his kitting power over the edge.

Mannny2 votes

His W simply speeds him up. He needs to land 3 autos within his short range, assuming the ADC did not flash previously, in order to proc it. You act like he can pull W procs out his ass when in reality he can't. Mallet is completely acceptable on him. He is supposed to build it. Again, his E has a relatively large cooldown so that is often used as an escape, I would never use it as an engage since I am not an assassin and probably won't get out alive. I'm not arguing whether it is fair or not, I am simply saying that frozen Mallet is essential for Gnar because the rest of his kit does not provide enough kiting tools compared to other kiters. I will say this though, the correct combo can be done to slow, proc W, rinse and repeat. You are correct in the fact that there is a way I can continuously stick to my enemy but the combo is situational and needs to have the rest of the enemy team away.

Chembaron Yamada3 votes

Yes, his W "simply speeds him up". How does that contradict that it is a kiting mechanic? In the end, both fulfill one task: increasing your movement speed in comparison to the enemy's. Did you ever fight a crit build Jhin in late game? Every AA gives him MS buff and he is insanely good at kiting because of that then.

I didn't actually say that you should use E to engage. Except in team fights when you are going to transform, then you can actually make sick plays that way winning the game. But it is an escape and a pretty good one. And that makes his laning safe.

Imagine you are an immobile melee champ at top. For example: Singed. It is hard enough to get in Gnars range when he has slows with his Q and MS buff with his W (remember, it proccs off from minions as well, not just champions). And even if you actually managed to get in range..... he can still just hop away with E in emergency. It is an additional safety net for him.

See, I don't even say that Gnar isn't supposed to build Frozen Mallet. But his kiting power is extremely strong, with and without that item. Did you see worlds last year? When they picked Gnar, the commentators used to say a specific phrase over and over again:

Gnar: safe pick, no counter

And you could actually see this in the game. His laning was extremely safe because of his kiting and escape with E. He kept split pushing all game long and the enemy team mostly was not able to catch him at all, he always escaped with his mobility, tankiness and slows (partly because of Frozen Mallet).

When Gnars numbers are strong, he is pretty frustrating for melees to face. That's just how it is, I have to agree with OP here.

SirLapse2 votes

The reason Gnar was a safe pick was due to his E and safely farming with Q. Had literally nothing to do with his builds or his kiting. Mega Gnar was the entire reason you brought him to competitive along with the super safe laning. He could bully in some match-ups but that was also when his numbers were different.

You've confused the entire reason Gnar was strong and are linking it to an advantage he currently has via Frozen Mallet, rather than an advantage he has always had which is his safe laning. How can you engage on anyone halfway across the lane when he also has a gap closer to leave? Not even Riven can punish that. Tower dives are the only answer and in his Mega Form that is one of the riskiest plays to be making. I have 1v2'd before in that scenario.

Singed is actually one of the safest, if not THE safest counter to Frozen Mallet users if you're using the Dark Seal build and use your minion wave properly to punish the opponent's aggression. These champions do not carry enough hard CC to be overcoming proxy farms and Righteous Glory + Boots of Swiftness/Merc Treads. And you actually play Singed! It may not be in a ranked setting but I would hope you've actually beaten some Frozen Mallet users. Maybe use one yourself instead of implying they're hard to beat?

Either way, Gnar's numbers when they are strong in MINI FORM make him a lane bully. They are not currently strong right now, seeing as he's consistently <450 range until lv10, compared to him getting that at lv6. When they are strong in Mega Form, which was the majority of his existence and is his current state, he is picked for doing what every tank wants to do in the game from chain CC and damage. Very hard to utilize in solo queue and there are champions that do his job consistently better, just like when he was released. Mind you he used to have both of these advantages with his older builds.

Lastly, Q gets blocked by minions/other champions and therefore turns impractical. The boost to his speed when his Mini form is not a lane bully in the current meta is meaningless, compared to things like Teemo who keep the mobility throughout the lane phase and get to boost it whenever they would absolutely need it. Gnar's Mini Form needs to be a threat or he is literally useless. Frozen Mallet is a means to that end and it is working better than literally anything else currently. If BoTRK was truly good him then that could've easily replaced it (it has before if you were paying attention at all to his previous build paths), but he's a tank and wants as much HP as possible. Also something Frozen Mallet fulfills. Gnar has had to build Frozen Mallet and Cleaver in over 60% of the games he plays and has a nonexistent winrate unless he follows this cookie cutter build in solo queue. He has literally no presence without them. That is a real problem and it's being ignored in favor of saying FM is too strong.

LankPants9 votes

Frozen Mallet needs to be melee only in some way.

I'd maybe even go as far as to say it should scale inversely with the range between you and your enemy when you hit them. That way it also hits weird abuse cases like Yasuo's Q, (which is the main one I feel should be hit) Poppy's passive and GP's Q.

Maybe a formula like 35/[(0.05x(range-200))][floor 1] could work. What this would mean is that up to 200 range it would be a 35% slow and after 200 range it would fall off insanely fast, for example at 250 range it would be a 14% slow, at 300 it would be a 7% slow and by a standard 550 range AA it would be an insignificant 2% slow.

Since I imagine this could be confusing as well, the "floor 1" means the lowest value the denominator can take is 1, if you're closer than 200 range then the slow snaps to a value of 35%, it never goes higher than that.

hhaavviikk6 votes

then what about ashe? facing a ashe as a immobile champions is a living hell

DJMason885 votes

However she trades this for no mobility.

SirLapse5 votes

Yet she still has a stun ultimate and a ranged way of applying her stun without getting into her own AA range. She can do what Frozen Mallet would want to do much better because her kit is centered around it and even has crit synergy, not even requiring her to build a Mallet.

hhaavviikk3 votes

{quoted}

However she trades this for no mobility.

yes however that doesn't make a difference when fighting immobile enemies

Blåbæret3 votes

Make it melee only. Prevents the biggest abuser from using it Gnar

Volphi5 votes

[deleted]

AwesomeGuyDj2 votes

{quoted}

Since when it's abusing?

Just like how adc's abuse bork. It puts his kiting potential to the extreme. He already has a built in slow, a speed up, and a jump. Frozen mallet makes him slow you every auto as well.

Volphi10 votes

[deleted]

Sire Hippington5 votes

Well, the term 'abused' is rarly ever used correctly on the boards(lethality and BC never got 'abused'). It mostly reffers to a high synergie that links the balance of a champ and an item directly together when used at the boards. Or just used by people that feel like some champs should not worke with some items despite haveing strong kit synergie with it...

LazyW0lf1 votes

The only abuse case I can really think of right now is Graves with Black Cleaver.

Instead of all shots dealing damage as "one AA", each bullet applies a stack of black cleaver and adds up damage to become his "one AA". I can see how this could be intended, it just seems a little strong on the specific champion.

Sire Hippington1 votes

even that isn#t an abuse case. His projectiles are different damage instances, and BC applies a stack per instance. He also profita alot from:

  • ad
  • extra beef
  • cdr
  • armorpen/shred
  • extra mobillity

So there is no reason why BC shouldn't be good on him. There simply is nothing wrong with that. It's like complaining that Garen or Darius use it. And if Graves is to strong, it's simply because graves is to strong. Giving a ranged champ melee like numbers and yet 2 rather longranged burst skills is just a bad idea, there is about no save distance vs graves. If you get close, he destroyes you, if you stay at midrange he still hurts alot, and if you get away he still finishes you with solid burst from ult and evt Q, all while beeing decently mobile with some tankiness.

macromite2 votes

adc's ARE abusing bork though. them using it is why it keeps being nerfed into obscurity to the class the item was initially designed for, juggernauts, divers, and skirmishers, (used to all fall under the same category)

Botrk was not meant for marksman, the critical items are the items that they are meant to use.

Chembaron Yamada1 votes

Statement from Meddler:

[...] We think it's appropriate that BotRK is a strong item on some ADCs and that was one of its original intended goals that the recent changes to it were meant to reinforce. [...]

(I have to quote that way too often....)

The latest changes made to BotrK had the goal to make it an attractive first purchase for marksmen. Therefore it is no case of abuse, Riot clearly intended them to buy this item.

macromite1 votes

Botrk is meant for a very small part of the class that utlizes on-hit.

Not as a generic tool for the class as whole.

This means that the item, is not meant for marksmen as a class. most marksmen should be buildng crit.

AirKingNeo4 votes

ADCs aren't abusing BoRK.

There's no such thing as abusing items. It's called innovating. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it follows your buzzword.

Ralanr3 votes

On one hand I agree, on the other I'm reminded of what ADCs did to Steraks.

2DunksFromHell3 votes

I remember season 2 when frozen mallet was first item on Darius,good ol days

PB4UAME1 votes

Rushing FM into FratMogs -> Metagolem as Olaf back in the day is some of the most fun I had playing League.

AFilthyCaitMain2 votes

Ashe item 3022 lul

Sire Hippington2 votes

TbH, Rylais could still use a reworke aswell. No item should be able to provide permaslow. If an item gives slow, the uptime should be gated in some way, else it will cause issues. The only reason Rylais isn't an issue anymore is because both it's numbers very low right now, so it's barly used outside of some suport mages. I personaly haven't used it on anyone but brand since the changes...

Acces to permaslow always favours range and mobillity and contributes to snowballing, as any fight most likely will last till the guy with permaslow has the kill or feels the need to back off.

In terms of how reworked slows might look like, mechanics like ludens or energized attacks could be an option, though i dislike how the chargeing system of those favours mobillity. A simple aactive that gives you a good slow and maybe even grounded on AAs(spells) for a short period of time(probably with different duration for ranged/melee) would work aswell i guess.

Legacy Hydralpha4 votes

What if Rylai's and Mallet worked similar to something like J4 passive?

The first time a spell/attack hits a champion or other target it slows them, but it has a cooldown per target. So you'd get the stickiness, but only once in a while per champion, so you can't permaslow them. Then again, this may favor mobility because they can stay on the person to continue getting the slows.

TimX24968B2 votes

Yasuo has item 3022 as his core?? what do you think this is, s6? item 3046 and item 3031 are his core.

AmazoX2 votes

item 3022 being core on Yasuo was in season 6 when Tanksuo using Frozen Force build was founded by Koreans, That item is not core on Yasuo ever since Yasuo was nerfed in patch 6.18, item 3078 is a much better option most of the time now, item 3022 is situational.

Unlike on Gnar, It's actually core on him.

Other than that, I agree item 3022 could use adjustments or rework, Though there are other problems that are much more of a priority right now, Like Mordekaiser himself need's bug fixes.

SirLapse1 votes

Reworking Frozen Mallet at this point means buffing/reworking the champions that are the best at using them. I've only seen the item in recent days being used by people like myself who use Kennen, Teemo, and Gnar (though not as much as the first two admittedly).

Teemo has no hard CC in his kit and going AP will undoubtedly lead to you get bursted most games. Heimerdinger can do what AP Teemo does right now much, much better aside from a surprise Shroom chunking people out, which is purely cheese. Gnar also has no hard CC unless he's in mega form, and a lot of the reason he isn't meta is because his small form is so easy to kick around and bully. Frozen Mallet/Cleaver combo is the only thing keeping him above ~44% winrate. On-hit Kennen is practically the only thing that uses Frozen Mallet as something extra.

Regardless, top laners who take Frozen Mallet as ranged attackers use it to be a pseudo ADC, and without it would be well...a worse ADC. Only Gnar has an attack speed steroid usable in combat, and it's not really good to use it for dueling. These champions are hovering below 50% winrate currently and really only excel in specific match-ups. Things like Jayce do not rely on Frozen Mallet to smash melees, and that's the only thing Teemo practically excels at until he gets his items rolling.

I'm not saying that the item shouldn't be reworked, but Boots of Swiftness after its nerfspree is more core to the issue than you would think. That and the champions currently using Mallet as a true staple for on-hit builds are reliant on the item doing its intended purpose.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Kennen needs a nerf.

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