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one of the biggest things that holds kog'maw back is life steal

NodirjonSattarov··4 votes·1,366 views

he can't lifesteal through his magic damage. typically ADCs build AD life steal items like BoRK, BT, DD, MCS. However, those ADCs benefit from those items immensely compared to Kog'Maw because either their abilities scale with AD or have some sort of amplification (crit items) that greatly boost their life steal. Kog'Maw on the other hand builds BoRK, which is decent on him, and life steals 12% of physical damage dealt.

The shocking thing is that Kog'Maw does not heal from on-hit effects of BoRK or Runaan's side bolts. So the only thing that is keeping him alive are his auto attacks. Kog'Maw builds very little AD. Assume an endgame build nets him Rageblade, Runaans, BoRK, Bers. Greaves, GA, and Wits End. Level 18 total AD = 98.4 + 35 + 40 + 40 = 213. With 12% LS (without crits) you get about 26health and with a crit it'll net him 52health. Those numbers are a complete joke especially since that is all you'll be relying on during a team fight in which you'll most likely be blown up instantaneously.

It's actually pathetic that he is gated this way. Picking Kog'Maw forces your team to pick a support with heals/shields, CC for peel, forces them to purchase Ardent Censor for heal amplification, and create a team to constantly protect him. However over the years its been increasingly more difficult to create the "protect the kog'maw comp" when you can pick champions like Twitch or Caitlyn who have the ability to heal tremendously, abilities to help them escape, and a safe laning phase.

I understand that Kog'Maw on paper is a late game monster and there needs to be things to prevent him from becoming "disgusting" but he only heals from his AA and its only a measly 12%. This is a huge barrier to keep him alive and should be justification to opening up his kit a little bit and making W consume no mana to use.

thanks

27 Comments

DestinyDude3 votes

The shocking thing is that Kog'Maw does not heal from on-hit effects of BoRK

From the official description of BoRK:

UNIQUE Passive: Basic attacks deal 8% of the target's current Health in bonus physical damage on hit. User's Life Steal is applied to bonus physical damage dealt.

Golden Tager X2 votes

item 3146

This Is Your Dad1 votes

Technically Gunblade would heal you off his w.

NodirjonSattarov1 votes

i did build GB once and was flamed for not building BoRK. i am fully aware of GB life steal effects.

rtbf2216514121 votes

Runic Armor, Feast, Warlord's Bloodlust, Vampirism and Greater Quintessence of Life Steal runes not enough for you?

NodirjonSattarov1 votes

no because if they were would I make a post like this? additionally I'm not talking about ruines/masteries because everyone has access to the same runes and masteries. I'm explicitly talking about how an item works with Kog'Maw and how it benefits Kog'Maw negligibly. Kog'Maw is an on-hit, % dealing monster but life steals pathetically. He doesn't get any life back from his on-hit unless it's Cull and since he doesn't to physical on-hit he doens't life steal from BoRK. What did you not understand about my post. I'm NOT COMPLIANING ABOUT LIFE STEAL AT ALL I'M TALKING ABOUT THE INTERACTIONS WITH KOGMAW AND HOW HE DOES NOT GET THE FULL PACKAGE FOR WHAT HE PAYED FOR.

rtbf2216514121 votes

[{quoted}](name=General KogMaw,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=htR7iBJ9,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-07-09T23:08:34.214+0000)

-snip-

Warlords: If an Energized attack critically strikes, it instead heals for 5% - 40% (based on level) AD × (2 + bonus critical strike damage).

So for purposes of seeing end result:

40% AD (2 + bonus critical strike damage) 2% life steal + 4.5% life steal = 6.5 (8% life steal increase) = 7.02

So... If we go:

item 3072

Now he has 27.02 lifesteal

If we go

item 3812

Now add that to your Warlords.

15% + 40% = 55% of damage is converted into health But that 40% also can crit which means 40% (2 + bonus critical strike damage)

  • 20 HP upon minion kill

Yes, definitely not enough 'life steal'

If anything, his HP is a problem, not his life steal. lul

And you are whining about spell vamp when it was gutted overall for everyone.

NodirjonSattarov1 votes

  1. Kog'Maw does not go WLB. He cannot afford to give up FoB or SRS. The only reason I would take WLB is if I'm vs Caitlyn or Ziggs.

  2. Have you ever seen Kog'Maw go BT or DD? The only interaction that those two items in his kit would be a)increased life steal 2) higher AA physical damage 3) bonus magic dmg on his R. He loses out on his W AS.

If you ever see a Kog'Maw build any of those items or use WLB AND succeed, please send me a screen shot.

Actually you should probably go ahead and test that out yourself since you think its suitable.

I'm not complaining about spell vamp.

rtbf2216514121 votes

[{quoted}](name=General KogMaw,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=htR7iBJ9,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-09T23:27:46.239+0000)

  1. Kog'Maw does not go WLB. He cannot afford to give up FoB or SRS. The only reason I would take WLB is if I'm vs Caitlyn or Ziggs.

  2. Have you ever seen Kog'Maw go BT or DD? The only interaction that those two items in his kit would be a)increased life steal 2) higher AA physical damage 3) bonus magic dmg on his R. He loses out on his W AS.

If you ever see a Kog'Maw build any of those items or use WLB AND succeed, please send me a screen shot.

Actually you should probably go ahead and test that out yourself since you think its suitable.

I'm not complaining about spell vamp.

  1. Black and white builds gets you nowhere.

  2. Bio-Arcane Barrage is his W. It only scales off AP. It can also critical strike.

  3. I've already tested a build for Kog'maw. I just don't main ADC.

  4. If you are not complaining about life steal and spell vamp, then why is this thread even a thing?

NodirjonSattarov1 votes

  1. what?

  2. I know W is bio arcane barrage. I'm saying that if you don't build BoRK then you lose AS for W to be effective. W on-hit cannot crit strike because its flat on-hit damage. only AA crit strike

  3. and what were the results?

rtbf2216514121 votes

[{quoted}](name=General KogMaw,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=htR7iBJ9,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-09T23:39:20.055+0000)

  1. what?

  2. I know W is bio arcane barrage. I'm saying that if you don't build BoRK then you lose AS for W to be effective. W on-hit cannot crit strike because its flat on-hit damage. only AA crit strike

  3. and what were the results?

Well it gives him life steal, decent survivability, cooldown reduction for W (basically 5 seconds of not having W up), and critical strike chance.

So...

It really wasn't that bad.

Depending on what you build, you can also out range Caitlin last time I checked.

W can crit strike.

"The enhanced attack will apply other on-hit effects and can Critical strike icon critically strike as normal but does not affect structures."

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Kog%27Maw

NodirjonSattarov1 votes

i agree it gives him more life steal/survivability but it sacrifices % dmg from BoRK and AS which he both scales with. he does not scale with AD seeing as the only ability that scales with AD is his ult (120% bonus AD)

like i said, W dmg does not crit strike. his normal AA can crit but the W dmg does not crit

Bio-Arcane Barrage's bonus damage will not interact with Critical critical strikes (yet they are affected by its damage reduction) but will do so with Runaan's Hurricane item.png Runaan's Hurricane's Wind's Fury.

that's from the same link you sent me.

rtbf2216514121 votes

[{quoted}](name=General KogMaw,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=htR7iBJ9,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-10T00:03:44.307+0000)

i agree it gives him more life steal/survivability but it sacrifices % dmg from BoRK and AS which he both scales with. he does not scale with AD seeing as the only ability that scales with AD is his ult (120% bonus AD)

like i said, W dmg does not crit strike. his normal AA can crit but the W dmg does not crit

that's from the same link you sent me.

His bonus damage doesn't crit. His normal damage that still works off his W does.

If you are complaining about AP Kog'maw, ask them why they chose to eliminate spell vamp over lifesteal, which is harder to balance. lul

Also:

Q gives him attack speed.

W gives him range.

E gives him an escape.

R gives him poke.

Doesn't sound as bad as you make it out to be. Do I think he should scale better? Yes.

Idk why you need % damage when you have armor shred. Maybe you could tell me? Yes, he does a lot of damage that way. Is it worth sacrificing everything else though?

NodirjonSattarov1 votes

So are you saying that his auto attacks, like any other champions auto attacks, critical strike when he has W activated? All his W does it provide a % max HP in magic damage on-hit (that is the bonus damage) any other damage is his normal auto attack. I don't know what you're confusing because it's simply a normal auto attack with % damage attached for 40 mana for 8 seconds. His bonus damage DOES NOT crit, his normal auto attacks do. So when you have W activated you see two damage pop ups, 1) his normal physical auto attack damage and 2) his bonus % magic damage. His autos will crit, his bonus damage will not. This is what I've been trying to tell you. So to correct what you're saying, W does not crit. His autos crit.

Does AP Kog'Maw build Rageblade, BoRK, Wits End, and GA?

Q gives him % shred and AS. The passive AS is good but the active skillshot is just awful. It's so clucky and 3/10 times you'll land it.

W is % damage and range. Used to cost no mana which is what I am asking for in the post. Let Kog'Maw have awful life steal but revert his W completely to where it costs no mana.

E is not an escape. E's slow is negligible and does not last a long time. Maybe in the early game it will deter people from jumping onto you but mid/late game people will have ways to surpass it. Also for 80-120 mana it's certainly not worth investing for the little damage it does.

R is a poke/execute. During S6 it was an execute but prior it was a poke. After revert they changed the numbers on R which now make it a terrible poke and a flaccid execute.

I play Kog'Maw every day, I know the champion. IDK what more to tell you bc we're just going in circles and I can tell that you've had little to no experience with the champion.

rtbf2216514121 votes

[{quoted}](name=General KogMaw,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=htR7iBJ9,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-10T00:41:22.003+0000)

So are you saying that his auto attacks, like any other champions auto attacks, critical strike when he has W activated? All his W does it provide a % max HP in magic damage on-hit (that is the bonus damage) any other damage is his normal auto attack. I don't know what you're confusing because it's simply a normal auto attack with % damage attached for 40 mana for 8 seconds. His bonus damage DOES NOT crit, his normal auto attacks do. So when you have W activated you see two damage pop ups, 1) his normal physical auto attack damage and 2) his bonus % magic damage. His autos will crit, his bonus damage will not. This is what I've been trying to tell you. So to correct what you're saying, W does not crit. His autos crit.

Does AP Kog'Maw build Rageblade, BoRK, Wits End, and GA?

Q gives him % shred and AS. The passive AS is good but the active skillshot is just awful. It's so clucky and 3/10 times you'll land it.

W is % damage and range. Used to cost no mana which is what I am asking for in the post. Let Kog'Maw have awful life steal but revert his W completely to where it costs no mana.

E is not an escape. E's slow is negligible and does not last a long time. Maybe in the early game it will deter people from jumping onto you but mid/late game people will have ways to surpass it. Also for 80-120 mana it's certainly not worth investing for the little damage it does.

R is a poke/execute. During S6 it was an execute but prior it was a poke. After revert they changed the numbers on R which now make it a terrible poke and a flaccid execute.

I play Kog'Maw every day, I know the champion. IDK what more to tell you bc we're just going in circles and I can tell that you've had little to no experience with the champion.

The problem lies in you thinking that he can't crit with his W activated. I don't give a damn about his bonus damage. He can crit with W activated. Period. Wikia says it. He can't crit his bonus magic damage, which is a "No shit sherlock". Go to practice mode, build this:

item 3508 item 3031 item 3094 item 3046

There. Now you have 100% critical chance. (No, this isn't the build btw) Now press your W. If you say you don't see him crit with his W activated, then you are a troll.

You are trying to argue things that are meaningless and/or factually incorrect depending on what you brought up. I don't give a crap about his bonus damage. His W range is all I care about right now and the fact it can crit.

His mana is an issue if you expect it not to be an issue early game. His W having no cost is terrible. He get's way too much out of that W. What next? Make it entirely his passive?

He is considered a 'hyper-carry'. This means he is late game. All adcs are late game, but him more-so. Is it fair? No. He need's a trade off his late game though. You can't just buff him and go "Okay fixed"

NodirjonSattarov1 votes

The problem lies in you thinking that he can't crit with his W activated. I don't give a damn about his bonus damage. He can crit with W activated. Period. Wikia says it. He can't crit his bonus magic damage, which is a "No shit sherlock". Go to practice mode, build this:

DUDE - ALL HE GETS FROM W IS %MAX HP MAGIC BONUS DAMAGE + THE DAMAGE FROM HIS NORMAL AUTOS. THEY'RE COMBINED. STOP REPLYING BECAUSE IT'S EVIDENT THAT YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE SAYING.

rtbf2216514121 votes

[{quoted}](name=General KogMaw,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=htR7iBJ9,comment-id=000100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-10T03:40:26.001+0000)

DUDE - ALL HE GETS FROM W IS %MAX HP MAGIC BONUS DAMAGE + THE DAMAGE FROM HIS NORMAL AUTOS. THEY'RE COMBINED. STOP REPLYING BECAUSE IT'S EVIDENT THAT YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE SAYING.

Troll confirmed.

NodirjonSattarov1 votes

look man, you honestly have no idea what you're talking about. I have over 1000 games on Kog'Maw, ranked/normals/aram/TT. I know exactly what I'm talking about and I know the mana cost of every ability, the scalings of every abiity, the base damage of the abilities, optimal builds and I especially know how his W works.

You on the other hand have been Bronze for 3 seasons and haven't played Kog'Maw in ranked. if anyone is the troll, telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about on Kog'Maw, its you.

rtbf2216514121 votes

[{quoted}](name=General KogMaw,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=htR7iBJ9,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-10T04:24:17.202+0000)

Kog'maw can't crit This thread isn't about life steal but spell vamp. Wait, it's actually about life steal but not spell vamp. Wait it's about both. Wait it's about neither. I refuse to consider different builds that may not make his weakness even worse.

All I hear from you.

Grimspeake1 votes

All he really needs is a botrk and hes fine tho

The amount of dps he puts out easily makes up for how much he can lifesteal at once when he usually has twice the autos of a normal adc

NodirjonSattarov1 votes

I don't think you read the post. He doesn't life steal from BoRK's on-hit 8% current health physical damage. He only life steals from his AA (base ad + bonus ad) at a rate of 12%. I did the math up there.

Kog'Maw does have a high DPS BUT half of it is from his W active in which he doesn't heal from (which I explained up above) so regardless of W active or not he's still only healing from his AA attacks. You say that he has 2 times the autos of a normal ADC. So for example Caitlyn gets about 2.3 AS late game (compared to Kog'Maw's 2.5) at 280 (this is raw as in only base ad and item ad) with 20 % life steal from BT gets her 56HP on normal AA and 112-140HP on a crit. This is nearly 6 times the amount of HP Kog'Maw life steals.

also I didn't include caitlyns passive AA enhancement in the calculation but from what the math is telling me it'd be substantially more.

he usually has twice the autos of a normal adc

if you're talking about 5AS Kog'Maw then lmao it's been nearly a year. if you're talking about his psuedo AA from Rageblade then you gain NO lifesteal from Rageblade on-hit

nm10101 votes

He is technically eating things right? Maybe they should rework his passive to heal for a % of w and r damage?

NodirjonSattarov1 votes

His lore says he eats things but the only thing I've see him eat are the honey fruit. I've been trying to push for a better passive for months and the idea of it being an eating passive would be wonderful.

BLACK REALM GOD1 votes

build penetration. you'll get more bang for your buck that way since armor prevents a certain amount of regen. you only need 1% lifesteal and you can heal off of your basic attacks. the spellvamp/lifesteal mastery gives you plenty of healing. grab a visage so you dont get blown up by a mage and then stack offense

Faie1 votes

I disagree. Kog'Maw not synergizing well with lifesteal is an intended weakness of his. Kog'Maw puts out a ludicrous amount of dps, and if he could effectively lifesteal off of it, he would be beyond broken.

Try running warlord's on him if you really need the sustain in heavy poke matchups. Lifesteal is not a requirement for an ADC, by the way. By changing your playstyle a bit to not focus so much on trades you can avoid having to need lifesteal. If you would like to trade still, try having a healing support or take warlord's bloodlust.

  • Sincerely, a D3 ADC main with a decent amount of Kog'Maw games.
NodirjonSattarov1 votes

I believe I stated this on one of the comments below but I completely understand that Kog'Maw needs to be gated by several things. What I am saying is that life steal shouldn't be one of those things since he builds BoRK and benefits little in comparison to other BoRK users/abusers. Kog'Maw is held down by so many things such as CD on his W, lack of synergy with AD, low MS with no compensation, do or die positioning, protective supports, tanky team with CC etc. Compared to other late game ADCs like Twitch and Caitlyn his damage/sustain is petty yet when the two are out of position or jumped ontop of they have means of escape. Kog'Maw has no escape and it is intended that way.

Jalkan1 votes

Nah dude Kog'Maw's winrate is already above 50%. Let all champions have their weaknesses and strengths.

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