@Meddler: What's your stance on the healing on Irelia's ultimate?

darkdill·Feb 24, 2015·5 votes·7,332 views

I'm of the opinion that Transcendent Blades just does not heal appropriately. Against minions, it leads to Irelia's laning becoming obnoxious in that you can't easily push her out. In team fights, though, it absolutely sucks because its damage will always be negated by armor, even if the armor is low. Irelia's don't tend to build Last Whisper either, since it doesn't work well on her.

But every time I bring the topic up on Reddit or here, Irelia purists are quick to attack me for suggesting any change. So I'd like to hear your opinion on the matter.

22 Comments

RiotMeddlerFeb 24, 201511 votes

I'm of mixed opinion on Irelia's ultimate.

One on hand:

It's an ability that's sometimes just spammed without interesting decisions
It sometimes just gets used for boring lane sustain, which is usually a pretty unsatisfying use for an ult with a noticeable CD
It splits its satisfaction between multiple casts and then again between damage and healing so doesn't feel good relative to its power
There are arguably cooler things that could be done with telekinetic blade warrior (biggest mark against it in my mind)

Having said that:

It does reward smart positioning and lining up of shots, whether against minions or champions. Well used ults give a lot more benefit than mediocre ones
Its multicast nature helps support Sheen/Triforce proc weaving, which for many people's a key part of Irelia play
A number of people do enjoy it, so while it doesn't hit the mark for me it does deliver for some people and does so without being terrible for game health

Overall I feel there's an opportunity to do something cooler, with more interesting decisions. Can't see us changing it in the short to medium term though, there's other stuff that's much higher value we could be working on instead and personal feeling is that Irelia's in an ok spot.

SmokingPuffinFeb 24, 20159 votes

There are arguably cooler things that could be done with telekinetic blade warrior (biggest mark against it in my mind)

Agreed, please add more awesome.

Overall I feel there's an opportunity to do something cooler, with more interesting decisions. Can't see us changing it in the short to medium term though, there's other stuff that's much higher value we could be working on instead and personal feeling is that Irelia's in an ok spot.

Probably the right assessment.

darkdillFeb 24, 20151 votes

I see. So it's unlikely you'd do a "Renekton Q" change to the healing?

RiotMeddlerFeb 24, 20157 votes

I'm guessing by "Renekton Q change" you mean changing it work off targets hit rather than damage dealt?

That would certainly be an option if we saw issues with Irelia's performance varying excessively based off how much armor the average enemy had, whether her team had any armor shreds to offer, lack of any squishy champs being played to give her targets to heal more effectively against etc. Given she's in an ok spot right now and gets a baseline amount of health restore from her W that's already damage independent I don't personally feel there's value in changing that mechanic at present. Good one to bear in mind though should circumstances change.

darkdillFeb 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'm guessing by "Renekton Q change" you mean changing it work off targets hit rather than damage dealt?

Precisely. But since you're not planning on it right now... dang...

lojicianFeb 24, 20151 votes

So wait did you notice he statistically lost more games against tanky top lane opponents or something? I would have assumed the opposite with him being really bad against mobile ranged mages that he can't deny/kill in lane and who go on to outscale him.

PS: Rework irelia e already. It's gimmicky and the thing that makes her low counterplay. She needs to be some kind of fighter-sassin low counterplay bullshit to be viable against the ranged tops given the current state of melee/ranged laning but in a perfect world that would get fixed instead of just letting her be stupid to counter other stupid stuff. At least make it physical or something.

5G8Nri0B54Feb 24, 20153 votes

There are arguably cooler things that could be done with telekinetic blade warrior (biggest mark against it in my mind)

You are only half-correct in this area.

It is true that she could have had something cooler. But her R is literally the only ability in her entire kit that actually reminds the player that her entire gimmick is that she fights with floaty telekinetic blades.

The rest of her abilities are "smack painfully while sucking blood, smack really hard once, and jump onto an enemy to smack them them", or as I'd like to put it, a kit that can literally be given to any champion with a melee weapon, or even just fists.

She can have better than that. But it's still the only ability she has that communicates her identity.

Irelia BotFeb 24, 20152 votes

{quoted}

You are only half-correct in this area.

It is true that she could have had something cooler. But her R is literally the only ability in her entire kit that actually reminds the player that her entire gimmick is that she fights with floaty telekinetic blades.

The rest of her abilities are "smack painfully while sucking blood, smack really hard once, and jump onto an enemy to smack them them", or as I'd like to put it, a kit that can literally be given to any champion with a melee weapon, or even just fists.

She can have better than that. But it's still the only ability she has that communicates her identity.

and this is why "identity" and play style are to be argued. I care less about her identity and more about her play style.

Say that amumu were to change from a tank to an assassin that gives it's life to take an enemy with him. While the wording might seem dark that would fit a lonely mummy identity better then attack me I'm the hard engage tank. On the other hand such a change would delete his play style.

MrSlowDieFeb 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You are only half-correct in this area.

It is true that she could have had something cooler. But her R is literally the only ability in her entire kit that actually reminds the player that her entire gimmick is that she fights with floaty telekinetic blades.

The rest of her abilities are "smack painfully while sucking blood, smack really hard once, and jump onto an enemy to smack them them", or as I'd like to put it, a kit that can literally be given to any champion with a melee weapon, or even just fists.

She can have better than that. But it's still the only ability she has that communicates her identity.

I don't even think that irelia mains consider her ult as her identity. if something defines irelia, it's probably her passive, or her E, or her Q.

larkinG98Feb 24, 20151 votes

what you said about amumu was partly correct i feel because in my perspective amumu's play style sort of matches his identity(locking the enemy down to stay friends forever but making them inevitably falling to their doom)

IcyPepperFeb 24, 20152 votes

Overall I feel there's an opportunity to do something cooler,

Glad to see Riot has this attitude about fun and cool things about champions. It makes more annoying champions tolerable, because it's subjective to each person and they're just doing what they're designed to: be cool, and fun.

I mean, supports don't deal the most damage, but a Braum or Lulu ult is one of the coolest things to see. You see the visual for that and you know *something's * about to go down.

Game on, Rito.

PryotraFeb 24, 20152 votes

I'm going to assume that irelia is gonna be a more extreme rework, so I raise a question for you: What do you think about changing her R into her Q?

I mean, same 4 skillshots then a large cd spell, just not nearly as much sustain or damage, and not nearly the CD. I'm thinking the over all CD would be 15 seconds or somewhere in that ballpark, but you still get the 4 casts. Then balance them around being a "spammable skillshot that gives some sustain".

I think that would help push the whole "Ima telekenetic blade warrior" thing she has going, and at the same time alow for a cooler ultimate.

vIbvdOwbkoFeb 24, 20152 votes

Eh, her ultimate gives her decent sustain in lane so she can win some fights. It can clear waves if she's behind, and it's pretty low CD. It's also very useful for proccing her sheen with every single use. And if you want to combo correctly in lane, use your ultimate to get enemy minions low to get a free jump reset on them.

Some champions have other abilities that are so strong or synergize so well each other that one ability can be generally weak. In this case, Irelia's Q, W, and E are very strong abilities, most notably her W, so her ultimate being even stronger would not be fun for the dudes at top lane. Similarly to Veigar's E being such a powerful ability yet the rest of his kit is subpar. She's already super strong right now.

darkdillFeb 24, 20152 votes

I'm just saying I think Irelia's ult could benefit from being changed in a way similar to Renekton's Q. If it healed flat amounts instead of being based off the damage dealt, that would definitely help Irelia's consistency in team fights against opponents who stacked armor.

Also, remember that minions are now unarmored without super minions nearby, so Irelia heals more effectively off them than she did in S4.

vIbvdOwbkoFeb 24, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I'm just saying I think Irelia's ult could benefit from being changed in a way similar to Renekton's Q. If it healed flat amounts instead of being based off the damage dealt, that would definitely help Irelia's consistency in team fights against opponents who stacked armor.

Also, remember that minions are now unarmored without super minions nearby, so Irelia heals more effectively off them than she did in S4.

Yeah I guess that could be one of the compensation buffs when they nerf her.

darkdillFeb 24, 20151 votes

The way I'd actually do it is to completely remove the healing vs minions, but make her healing vs Champions via ult more consistent.

Colgate GatorFeb 24, 20152 votes

Meddler confirmed that Irelia is not OP

ProfDrDeathFeb 24, 20151 votes

Three things:

A. Irelia already has a target-independant form of sustain available in Hiten Style.

B. Her ultimate's numbers are tuned pretty aggressively, healing for 25% of damage dealt to champions, as well as doing a metric ton of damage.

C. Minions don't even get Armor or MR, meaning that they will always be hit for full damage - and full healing.

And any buffs to Irelia would need to come with nerfs...

darkdillFeb 24, 20151 votes

No, her ult really doesn't hurt much unless you build AD or AP, which Irelia does neither. She builds AS and tankiness.

Since it doesn't deal good damage to Champions, the healing comes out crappy.

Irelia BotFeb 24, 20151 votes

who cares about the healing when there are sheen procs to be had. The healing is just a nice thing for being able to deal wiht champs like Darius a little better when things are not going well.

It is however not something that is a focal point of the ability or Irelia's kit. Heck I would take the passive 10/14/18/22/26 on EVERY hit healing that was cut in half when not active over the healing on Irelia's ult any day but that was too over whelming.

As for the ability yes it can be used for wave clearing but that is just a option which does remove a lot of Irelia fighting potential. It does actually fit with what seems to be Irelia's play style concept of being better off when in a worse spot (see her passive as well as her stun only being on higher health targets) If used right it does allow for making what seems like a bad fight winnable. Say hitting the enemy champ and 4 minions in a duel with it to heal more.

It might just be that I am one of the few who was still playing Irelia in season 3 but I really don't want to see her kit drastically changed.

darkdillFeb 24, 20151 votes

If the healing wasn't supposed to be a real part of the ability, it wouldn't have been added on in the first place.

TheOnlyGBeastFeb 24, 20151 votes

Irelia just needs to be reworked entirely. She was made for a completely different era. To quote Ezreal, the man who designed her, "We started out wanting a melee dps who could strive in our current anti melee metagame"