Why nerf champs instead of rageblade?

Paladin 0f Life·Feb 28, 2016·79 votes·3,910 views

Is it just for Guinsoo?

82 Comments

Vistha KaiFeb 28, 201615 votes

They won't nerf Guinsoo, OP. That'd mean they were wrong changing it in the first place.

Riot will never admit they were wrong.

CavemanteroFeb 28, 20163 votes

No...riot has admitted they were wrong (the Fiora visual update) but they don't do anything about it even if they admit it.

Vistha KaiFeb 28, 20162 votes

It's because skins team is special and capable of even slight changes.

Speaking about the rest of Riot... well.

ChaoticPineconeFeb 28, 20161 votes

When a item is in the store and not bought - EVER - even on the champions that synergize extremely well with it, then they arent wrong in changing it.

Vistha KaiFeb 28, 20162 votes

When an item is in the store and bought by everybody and their grandma on every champion getting Devourer, then they were wrong changing it.

ChaoticPineconeFeb 29, 20162 votes

So that means IE needs to get removed, right? Same with Deathcap? Void staff? Locket?

SaiannaFeb 29, 20161 votes

Those items (and IE) are kind of NECCESSARY to play this game.

Devourer just makes strong/balanced AA-focusing champions into OP ban/pick or lose champs.

ChaoticPineconeFeb 29, 20161 votes

Im talking about Guinsoos.

And im not sure why you think IE is necessary to play the game. In fact, Crit was always seen as a kinda awkward mechanic. They took out things like Dodge because it gave a purely RNG based stat, where luck basically determined if you would get a kill or die. For some reason, they kept crit. But to be fair, theyve taken steps to mitigate the RNG Crit with Kalista, Ashe, and Jhin.

SaiannaMar 1, 20161 votes

First: I dislike crit mechanic. Especially after Riot removed dodge for exactly the same reason.

Second: Some champions are simply useless if they stray from crit-builds. Thus they are forced to buy IE no matter what. (btw, Ashe belongs here)

Third: If Riot were to remove crit from game I'd most likely drunk myself to death from happiness. But along with crit removal, all ADCs would receive insane buffs just to protect their inflated EGOs of hitting for 800 dmg aainst tanks.

Fourth: I still hope we'd see more Ashe-like crit mechanics. But if crit removal would cause sudden flood with "Ashe-crits" I'd be pretty unhappy.. Imo Riot should take it slow and rework champion by champion to remove crit.

Vistha KaiFeb 29, 20161 votes

Over the past 3-4 years the game was balanced around the fact of having those items, which are essentially raw stats.

In case of Devourer not only the game wasn't balanced for it, it makes the balance a completely unachievable dream, due to its partially statless mechanic of doubling on-hits.

I can not and never will be balanced without utterly trashing champions buying it or without making Devourer so bad nobody will consider getting it.

ChaoticPineconeFeb 29, 20161 votes

We arent talking about devourer. We are talking about guinsoos, and I was explaining why it needed to be changed.

Vistha KaiMar 1, 20161 votes

Of course we don't.

Read what people actually write, before making such dubious claims. Also, you didn't try to explain anything until after writing this comment and it wasn't directed at me.

Now, back to the topic. Guinsoo's has immensly higher buy rate on champions getting Devourer first than any other(we are talking 3x minimum), except for Kog'Maw, whom was given Sated Devourer on steroids for the sake of it. It possesses exactly zero problems on every other champion.

Guinsoo isn't being bought simply, because it was reworked into something useful. It's being bought, because its rework becomes exponentially more toxic the moment you add Sated Devourer into the mix.

ChaoticPineconeMar 1, 20161 votes

here is what you wrote and the post that i first responded to:

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hmXUHWIR,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-02-28T08:22:30.508+0000)

They won't nerf Guinsoo, OP. That'd mean they were wrong changing it in the first place.

Riot will never admit they were wrong.

I was responding to a post on Guinsoo. I did not comment on Devourer. I was commenting specifically and only about the change that was made to Guinsoo. I really dont know why you think I was talking about Devourer. Devourer was never is a position when it was ignored by the champions that synergize extremely well with it, which was my criticism of pre-rework Guinsoo. In fact, Devourer (and Feral Flare) had the exact opposite problem - they were built too often on the champions that synergize well with it, turning the game into a PvE.

Im not sure why you think item synergy is an "end all, be all". Yes, devourer synergizes well with Guinsoos. And Guinsoos has a higher buy rate on champions going Devourer. How many champions do you see with a Zhonias but not Void Staff? How many champions do you see with a Shiv but not IE? Item synergy exists across the board to make certain combinations potent. Im not sure why you single out Devourer and Guinsoo.

Vistha KaiMar 2, 20161 votes

Void Staff and Zhonya's Hourglass have no synergy with each other beyond sharing one attribute, AP. It's comparable to Last Whisper and DMP.

The only time I ever see somebody with Shiv but not IE, is when it's Gankplank(and that's still only sometimes) or when a guy simply didn't have enough gold to get IE, before the game ended.

Look, the thing is that without Sated Devourer only Kog in his current state would ever build Rageblade consistently. If Infinity Edge was removed, people would still buy Shiv. If Rabadon was removed, people would still buy Void Staff or Zhonya. If Sated Devourer was removed, no jungler would ever buy Rageblade.

WaffletimewarpFeb 28, 201614 votes

As a staunch user of devourer rageblade on trundle, I fully support merging rageblade into the ground. Shits stupid.

ChaosThiefFeb 29, 20161 votes

Time to troll?

WalkingInACircleFeb 28, 20169 votes

Rageblade has a good mechanic, rather than just raw stats. The only nerf I can really think of for it is to increase its gold cost some.

SwiftKitten88Feb 28, 201616 votes

{quoted}

Rageblade has a good mechanic, rather than just raw stats. The only nerf I can really think of for it is to increase its gold cost some.

no it has a horrible mechanic.. item 3124 is meant to be an item gotten by hybrid users who want AP and AD and it builds out of item 1026 and item 1037

it passive however is designed for auto attack based champions stacking attack speed.

plus when used the item 3931 it becomes absurdly op

item 3124 and item 3931 alone give someone the damage of used to take about 15k gold and 4-5 damage items to achieve using other items.

that is NOT balanced in ANY way the item needs a nerf

WalkingInACircleFeb 28, 201614 votes

You have no idea what I meant by mechanic, do you?

Its the same mechanic as fervor of battle or Ashe's Q, it builds up each time you attack.

SwiftKitten88Feb 28, 20166 votes

{quoted}

You have no idea what I meant by mechanic, do you?

Its the same mechanic as fervor of battle or Ashe's Q, it builds up each time you attack.

i know exactly what u meant... as you would have noticed if you read my post.

like i said... the stats of rageblade has always been about an AD+AP hybrid damage champ.. but its current MECHANIC is based around auto attacking champs stacking attack speed...

LlaniteFeb 28, 201610 votes

Hybrid build is always about attack speed, were you just born last Friday?

Vistha KaiFeb 28, 20161 votes

Hybrid build => Attack speed Attack speed != Hybrid build

Currently Rageblade is an AS item giving obscene amounts of raw damage.

I thought it'd click in your mind, that the worst offenders of abusing Guinsoo's AREN'T Hybrids.

BoundaryBreakerFeb 28, 20162 votes

Could you name some of the offenders? Outside of Yi, I can't think of many that aren't hybrid.

Champs that can/do abuse rageblade, hybrids and non: Irelia KogMaw MasterYi Tryndamere XinZhao Warwick Jax Kayle Aatrox (? for aatrox)

The vast majority of these are proper hybrids, as far as I can tell. Thoughts?

And I feel like the change from "Hybrid" to "AA-reliant Hybrid" classification of item was deliberate. But that's just me, the few times I ever got Rageblade pre-rework it felt REALLY underwhelming.

Vistha KaiFeb 28, 20161 votes

The thing is there are 4 champions actively building it.

In the order: KogMaw XinZhao MasterYi Jax All of those end the game with Rageblade in 20% of games, with Jax having the lowest of them.

Then come some of the champions you mentioned: Kayle Irelia Tryndamere Udyr Warwick Shyvana

But Kayle having ~6%, with Udyr at ~3.5% and then tanking hard with Shyvana ending at sub-1% buy rate.

LlaniteFeb 28, 20161 votes

Kog, Xin, Jax and Yi are all hybrid and have AP ratio in their kit, if you want to argue ambiguity.

Rageblade works because the proc has 15% AD ratio (i.e. AA is 15% stronger), without the AP, the thing has 90-ish gold efficiency (153% if you can make use of the AP), if they the proc is worth the tradeoff, nothing's wrong with them building it.

Vistha KaiFeb 28, 20164 votes

If Yi is a hybrid champion, then literally everything you slap a Sated Devourer on is a hybrid.

LlaniteFeb 28, 20161 votes

Everyone with both AD and AP ratio in their kit is "hybrid" by default. Riot left the AP in there to allow room for innovation.

Someone who builds 2 AS, 1 hybrid and 3 tanks, is close as "hybrid" as one could get.

WimbledofyFeb 28, 20161 votes

No, hybrid has to do with hybrid damage scaling. Akali is a hybrid since she does both physical and magic and scales with both physical and magic. Yi is not traditionally hybrid, but since devourer and guinsoos give magic damage on hit that is when he becomes hybrid. But you cannot build something like void staff on yi to increase any of his damage.

LlaniteFeb 29, 20161 votes

Akali does 98% magic dmg and 2% physic, and you consider her a hybrid but not Yi who does 30% magic 70% physic?

WimbledofyFeb 29, 20161 votes

Her E is phycical and her autos are physical. Master yi DOES NO MAGIC DAMAGE ON HIS OWN. No matter what akali builds she will always do hybrid damage. Yi only is hybrid when he has devourer and guinsoos. The items he builds are hybrid, the champion he is is not hybrid.

LlaniteFeb 29, 20161 votes

Hybrid, by definition, is someone who does mixed dmg and have both AD AND AP ratio in their kit. You purposely add "magic dmg on his own" to invalidate Yi. As long as they receive benefit for having AP, they can build some of it and qualify as 'hybrid'.

If you want to hold on that, good for you, I will not make further comment.

ChaoticPineconeMar 2, 20161 votes

Master Yi has a maximum of 120% AP ratio on his heal. You cant just ignore defensive abilities when classifying a champion as "ad" or "hybrid". You have to take in defensive scaling, itemization, and playstyle.

Lee Sin has a 80% AP ratio on his shield. However, he is not a hybrid - he has such ridiculous scaling on his offensive abilities that it wouldnt be optimal to build any AP on him. Furthermore, he doesnt use on-hit items as effectively since he has a very little AS steroid in his kit.

There was a reason why AP Tryn and AP Xin were nerfed into the ground. Because their defensive AP scaling allowed them to be played "hybrid" - they still did only physical damage without magic-damage on hit items, but their scalings gave them ridiculous sustain.

iainB85Feb 28, 20161 votes

I would argue it's a bad mechanic and poorly designed item.

It's easy to balance a stacking mechanism when you are looking at one champions kit (ex. Ashe), however when adding to an item any champion can buy it instantly becomes problematic. You'll get a handful of champions who can stack it almost instantly, making it insane on them, while nobody else will even bother with it.

ChaoticPineconeFeb 28, 20161 votes

Can you name a hybrid damage champion that doesnt rely on attack speed?

NEOtheONEFeb 28, 20161 votes

Akali

ChaoticPineconeFeb 28, 20161 votes

Fair enough. But she is the exception, not the rule. For the one Akali, we have Corki, Kayle, Jax, Shyvana, Kog, Warwick, Ezreal, etc.

Vistha KaiFeb 28, 20162 votes

Raw stats is everything this item is about.

forrestoFeb 29, 20161 votes

I'm not going to be a dick about it like that other guy, but I do agree with him. Many hybrid champs shouldn't be sitting there hacking at someone with autos like guinsoos demands. Right now the people who do benefit from it are the champs who want to sit there and auto things, like xin or yi. what ends up happening with these champs is guinsoos basically gives their autos a 15% higher AD scaling, and a 7.5% AP scaling. The time it takes to stack is negligible, and it makes every other attack item they buy more cost efficient. The champions who buy it these days arent balanced to it so they essentially end up with 15% more on-hit damage(and a bit extra beyond that from the AP) than they should. This can be compounded by certain factors like yi's true damage, or xins guaranteed crit leading to further breaking those champs. If you want to make that even more broken, you can add in things like devourer, or other on-hit effects which serve to further compound the problem.

KVbqbFsC8eFeb 28, 20166 votes

Riot balance.

TheOvermindFeb 28, 20166 votes

Just remove this stupid item already

YCitizenSnipsYFeb 28, 20165 votes

becasue the item was useless for years?

Vistha KaiFeb 28, 20163 votes

Hardly useless, it was just that only a handful of champions could make use of it. Mainly Kayle and Jax, because that's the number of hybrid champions we have in the game right now.

Now look at Yi, Xin and the like and tell me how they are a hybrid?

Because they build Devourer which doubles Rageblade AoE magic Hydra.

That's not a "hybrid", that's a terribad design we are stuck with for the next 3 years, because Riot will do everything to balance every champion using Rageblade around it.