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Our go-to can't be to revert reworks. (Hear me out)

ShadowParker··3 votes·514 views

The go-to always seems to be "revert, revert, revert". This mentality is bad and instead doesn't improve League of Legends as a whole moving forward.

Sejuani: New Sej is a lot better than the old one. The old one had a very small skill ceiling where as the new actually has one. Not too mention that the old one was practically the same as Mummy. The old iteration of Sej wasn't good. While the new one may have fallen flat thematically, it's much, much better than the old one. Let's stop crying for a revert and instead give suggestions to help push her in a better direction.

Zac: For those calling for a revert of his q, there is no reason to revert. His old q was boring and lackluster. After a few buffs the new q will be way better in every aspect. Now for the main gripe: The new ultimate. Zac's old ultimate was primarily used to disrupt fights and or push carries towards your team or away. His new ultimate does all of this still. You don't have to do go into the pool to push carries, just double cast it immediately for the exact same effect as the old ultimate. Give it time, Zac was also released rather weak and after a few buffs he'll feel much better to play.

Maokai: I actually don't care for new Maokai tbh. I thought the goals were to set skill expression and I feel like the new ultimate doesn't really add that much. The saplings do feel rather lazy to try and add another skill element.

That said! Riot did succeed in giving him a nichè. Maokai was a generalist champion so the rework succeeded in that aspect. Also, for those who claim that he is no longer viable in other lanes, I'd say give them some time to buff him. If I recall correctly, He has buffs on the PBE that might help. He's overall a much better champion than he was before.

Kog'Maw revert: We need to keep in mind that riot only reverted Kog'Maw because he was better in his older state. None of the champions above were better in their older states.

Give riot time to balance the tanks and then decide. Give positive feedback instead of crying for a revert.

19 Comments

PeepingPeafowl3 votes

{quoted} You don't have to do go into the pool to push carries, just double cast it immediately for the exact same effect as the old ultimate.

Only you cant combo it with E because the CC time was reduced, and its terrible because its only one bounce instead of 4. It does not have anywhere near the same effect as the old ult.

ShadowParker2 votes

The old ultimate was for displacement effects, wreaking havoc across the enemy team right?

How does the new ultimate not accomplish that?

PeepingPeafowl1 votes

Its almost impossible to hit more than 1-2 people with the new ultimate and with the old ultimate you were basically assured to displace almost their entire team unless you got CC'ed.

Also you cant insec people for sure if you hit E on them anymore, it used to be if you hit E the knockup was long enough for you to walk behind them and ult them into your team. Now the nerf on knockup means you cant do that anymore, even with the quick tap option.

Basically the new ult is realllly situational and not good in nearly as many situations as the old one.

Leaf on Bush2 votes

The boards are full of reactionary complainers and that can create a false impression. A few people who just try very hard to trash talk and downvote everything are not representing the whole player base. For the most part they have poor arguments or simply none so just ignore them.

Big Lincoln1 votes

the new actually has one

no she doesn't, lol

let's make a late game tank who traded a strong defensive steroid for good aoe damage, into an early-mid game CC bot who has unavoidable CC, the most broken CC combo, still has high damage, and also has one of the best defensive steroids in the game. epic rework my brudes

ShadowParker1 votes

What is this referring to? Which part of my point?

Big Lincoln1 votes

you don't have a point, you're just parroting riot and repeating "muh skill ceiling"

only good part about this rework is the new W

ShadowParker1 votes

Are you trying to say you could tell the difference between a new Sej and one that had a ton of mastery?

Shahamut1 votes

I don't think your argument applies to Skarner...

Pre-juggernaut Skarner had better skill expression, and was healthier/more thematic.

Juggernaut Skarner (riot later admitted this was a false label, he isn't a juggernaut) was overturned to the point of redefining feast or famine. The only thing making him somewhat viable after they gutted his passive (I hate his passive) is his single target c.c. chain: slow>>>supression>>>stun>>>slow>>>stun.

His E is the best skill to max, bigger slow, more burst, mana sustain and movespeed burst AND cooldown on E with stun proc. His W has a ramp up move speed buff, so you need the slow to get on to people in a meaningful manner, his q is worthless as anything aside from a glorified sheen proc skill.

A revert on Skarner would be better and "healthier".

Not that I disagree with everything you said, but people are in general resistant to change. When it happens, and it doesn't meet their expectations, they long for what they were already familiar with. No sense in telling them to stop asking, it's natural.

ShadowParker1 votes

New Juggernaut skarner isn't bad though. Ultimately he needs a VGU. (I liked old skarner way better myself) He has a nichè now though compared to before.

Asking them to offer good feedback rather than crying wolf immediately? There is a sense in asking that. How many reworks do you think would have gone through had riot listened to these people?

Think about how many reworks could have turned out better had people offered feedback instead of reverting.

Shahamut1 votes

I disagree. Juggernaut Skarner IS bad and doesn't have a niche. His new passive didn't give him a niche, it gave him an on/off contestable zone of unbalanceable feast or famine power. Nunu has better objective control. What niche did juggernaut Skarner gain?

Hige1 votes

what would you say if Skarner was able to somehow move his spires?

We have several options for this, one would be the Zyra/Illaoi treatment where periodically Skarner would spawn a spire near himself, spires would have smaller radius of course and they would last only until captured

There's also the option of giving skarner his spires to boot, say, everytime he casts his W, he leaves a spire behind or everytime he procs his stun he leaves a spire behind

it could also be a stacking skill, after 4 spell casts, skarner leaves a spire behind (poop...) although this would turn him into a weird spamming champion (who poops crystal...)

it could be tweaked to skarner being able to "pick them up" and move them somehow to a more advantageous point, you would need to venture on the enemy jungle to collect those and slowly move them back to your jungle... I'd say that skarner wouldn't need to stand still and channel to capture but instead the spire sticks with you for the channel duration and until you cast a spell you receive bonus movement speed, of course there would be a cooldown associated with it or you'd be moving them to your jungle in no time...

All in all, and whether people like it or not, spires are a pretty unique gameplay feature that isn't present on any champion, of course we do have illaoi and zyra who play somewhat similar but I would compare the spires more to Trundle's area which is temporary as opposed to Skarner's ever lasting ones

Shahamut1 votes

Unique does not equal a "niche". And no matter how you slice it, the zones are not a balanceable feature. They are either overturned (release till multiple nerfs) or utterly useless stats (current).

Sometimes, we just need to admit (as riot has before, see Kog'maw and Skarner isn't a juggernaut) that it was a cool idea, but it just doesn't work. Not from a balance point, and not thematically.

I have suggested other concepts for Skarner, but all in all, we have to deal with the fact that RIOT is VERY UNLIKELY, to take any suggestions from the board.

I would, for the sake of this discussion, like to also point out that you have not answered any of my objections, and only counter argued that spires were unique. Uniqueness wasn't the subject of the discussion, but healthier and better were. I still stand that pre juggernaut Skarner was a better champion and healthier for the game.

Hige1 votes

I didn't answer to your objections because I agree with them... and I agree that old skarner was healthier (as a champion, like, he was stronger), as was old Zac and every tank that has been reworked, sadly though, healthier often times means homogenized and in a game with 140+ characters, homogenization is a thing people will dislike a lot more than champions being balanced, I remember a time when discussions would go like this:

  • Why should I pick X over Y?
  • Because X looks different than Y! do you like Scorpions or robots? take your pick!

And in all honesty that's not enough of a reason, you pick what is strong no matter how they look (competitively that is), by giving champions different windows of power you can create unique experiences around certain moments of the game as opposed to there being no difference between them

With this in mind I would advocate to keep spires somehow and to avoid a full revert of Skarner since his old problems would then creep up plus skarner would become a washed out version of Garen + blitz... in turn, Riot should try to solve his current unique ones... you said that spires aren't balanceable, either overtuned or useless but the cool thing about balance is that once you find limit numbers you then have a range to move in where you could theoretically find balance

More important though is that Riot has realized that a champion's worth can be more than big damage numbers which back then wasn't a thing in their balancing philosophy and precisely because of this Spires now have a lot more levers that you could move around in order to achieve an acceptable balance, not to mention that the game has changed as a whole as well so any change will be affected by the current and future metas as opposed to the old one where spires were imbalanceable...

Shahamut1 votes

Prior to juggernaut, Skarner had a stacking attack speed/move speed buff on q. His passive let him stack spell procs to either stun a target or get bonus damage on his it sting. W and E were mostly the same beyond that. How do you compare that to Garen+Blitz? Skarner was a ramp up duelist, meaning, a duelist who's power either had to be prepped ahead of time or built up in the fight. Staying at max duel potential cost mana, there was expressions of skill in management, Windows of power clear weaknesses and strengths. He had plenty of tuning levers. Playstyle wise? He was probably mostly comparable to Udyr. A speedster/duelist.

I don't want to keep spires for the sake of keeping something "uniqie". The spires in general don't feel right on him in my opinion. Keep the spires concept for a different champion if you want, because the entire kit will need to be built around whatever these spires do.

Skarner was not "stronger " prior to the juggernaut update. Even after all of the spire nerfs, the base stat changes were probably enough with the shield changes (scales with hp) and the chain c.c. I think pre juggernaut Skarner was a more fair and balanceable champion than current.

Shahamut1 votes

Also, Sejuani wasn't a healthier champion before rework, she is just overturned atm.

Zac changes just made him more interesting in my opinion. Neither version is healthier or better.

I think Maokai's change is an improvement as well.

Shahamut1 votes

To humor you, here is one way that I proposed the spires in his kit:

R: summon spire/impale:

Skarner summons a spire at target location for 20 seconds. While within range of the spire, Skarner gains increased attack and movement speed, regenerates mana and gains a single use of impale.

The spire created counts as terrain and interacts with other champions/abilities as such.

Doing this allows it to remain powerful, as it is temporary and an overall short duration.

The only problem now is that power would have to be taken away from other places in his kit.

IA9hRfpP5q1 votes

Ryze JUST REWORK THE REWORK OF THE UPDATE OF THE REWORK Ryze '

lets go lets go

XDDDDD Balance team is a joke.

Jorencice1 votes

What do you mean pre rework kogmaw was Better?

New kogmaw needed nerf after nerf and still almost hit 60% winrate.

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