RoG's jungle blogger says jungle diversity is dead

Linna Excel·Feb 26, 2015·6 votes·760 views

http://www.reignofgaming.net/blogs/stonewall/30870-jungle-diversity-is-dead

Well riot, everything you've tried to improve jungle diversity has failed miserably. Good job.

Here's a suggestion: bring back philospher's stone/elisia's miracle and make it the only machete upgrade. It'll give you bonus AA damage against jungle mobs, sustain, and gold. After a few levels it turns into a bonus and frees up an item slot for you. No more mucking about with multiple jungle items your balance team obviously can't handle.

16 Comments

SmokingPuffinFeb 26, 20153 votes

Stonewall's take is quite good.

The problem isn't the removal of smite swapping. It's quite clearly a healthy change.

The problem is that weaker junglers right now really need the ranger's for early game. Effectively, this change is reinforcing the narrow jungle meta. The top tier of junglers bought stalker's and never looked back, so this is just a 250 gold penalty for those junglers with weak early games.

I grow tired of waiting for Riot to take real action to widen the jungler meta. It's 5.4. That's four patches since the preseason. They keep nibbling around the edges. We need real, structural change to the hierarchy of junglers.

Teridax68Feb 26, 20152 votes

I think summoner 11 -swapping is just a short-term solution: ideally, the Smite a jungler picks should define their jungling style for the whole game (e.g. you want item 3713 because you always want to clear faster and more safely, and not just at the start of the game), and that means jungle items should be balanced well enough to not just become strictly better or weaker than one another at certain points in the game. It's kind of crappy that the negative change (no more easy Smite-swapping) happened before the positive change (better balancing on Smite items), though, and all these hits to junglers, who already have a lot to deal with, is kind of sad to bear with.

It would be nice to know what Riot's long-term plan is for the jungle at the moment, too. So far, we know that AD junglers are still outperforming everyone else, that there's still a certain amount of overly safe jungle picks ( LeeSin still being the biggest example) while other junglers are struggling hard to survive even the first few jungle camps, that item 3711 has been extremely unpopular since its release, and that the scaling to jungle clears and health is still out of whack for a lot of archetypes (especially tanks, whose clears are slow and overly damaging at all stages of the game); it would be good to know what are the balance/design team's thoughts on these issues and what they have in mind to deal with them, even if it's extremely tentative and not likely to happen until we're several patches further down the line.

SmokingPuffinFeb 26, 20152 votes

Honestly, I don't care about Riot's long-term plan for the jungle. Every time they talk about this stuff it always sounds good. Season 5's ideals of jungle diversity and playstyle-based smites were perhaps the best sales pitch ever on jungle changes. None of that talk matters unless it's backed by action.

Give me a patch that makes the jungle better, then maybe I'll be interested in listening to more vision statements.

Teridax68Feb 26, 20152 votes

"make the jungle better" sounds easy, but that's what Riot's been trying (not always successfully) to do for the past few years, with the real big changes happening this season. What is it about the jungle that needs to be made better? How would you go about improving that without creating abuse cases? How will these changes pan out in the long-term? What is even the plan for the jungle, and for junglers?

The problem with a situation like this is that a quick fix may sound nice, but could create major structural problems that could persist for years and years, and have so much stuff build over it that the jungle might need another overhaul. That was the issue with the old jungle: it was so easy to clear that junglers could easily spend way too much time chain-ganking and putting early game pressure, and it ended up with a whole itemization system designed to play around that, so in the end it needed to be redone because a lot of its core features were fundamentally unworkable. The same problem could occur here: if every jungler got a much easier first clear, we might end up with the same early-game chain-ganking scenario from before Season 5, where tank junglers would risk going from overly weak to really oppressive early on. I'd rather Riot took more time to cook up a jungle that's as healthy as possible right down to its core, than just provide a knee-jerk response to complaints and make a rushed feel-good patch that'll take years to fix. It's rushed decisions that gave us the era of overloaded bruisers like XinZhao and Irelia , which even now are causing serious champion design problems, so even as a jungle main who favors tanks I'd rather wait a little longer for my baes to shine.

SmokingPuffinFeb 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

"make the jungle better" sounds easy, but that's what Riot's been trying (not always successfully) to do for the past few years, with the real big changes happening this season. What is it about the jungle that needs to be made better? How would you go about improving that without creating abuse cases? How will these changes pan out in the long-term? What is even the plan for the jungle, and for junglers?

Job #1 in the jungle is exactly the stated goal for this season: provide for a diverse set of jungle playstyles. For all the talk about how early ganking won't be the only way to play, it's the only way to play. Again. Four straight seasons of being wrong about that.

The problem with a situation like this is that a quick fix may sound nice, but could create major structural problems that could persist for years and years, and have so much stuff build over it that the jungle might need another overhaul.

I'm not looking for a quick fix. This is not a new problem.

I'm losing patience with their endless failure to address the problem, or even earnestly try. We know a clear pathway to tank jungler viability; the Sejuani rework was a clear win and now she feels great to play. That happened in 4.21. Tick tock tick tock.

That was the issue with the old jungle: it was so easy to clear that junglers could easily spend way too much time chain-ganking and putting early game pressure, and it ended up with a whole itemization system designed to play around that, so in the end it needed to be redone because a lot of its core features were fundamentally unworkable.

I think the jungle monster refresh was done well. Lots of cool new features in the design, and indeed sustain now matters again. Only the wolves seem stupid today. The thing is, Jarvan will be a better jungler than Nautilus no matter what health and damage values jungle monsters have. He initiates teamfights almost as well as a tank, and he's better at literally everything else you could want a jungler to do.

This reminds me a bit of sightstone. Riot diligently solved the wrong problem.

Teridax68Feb 26, 20152 votes

Even what you mentioned right here highlights two different problems, one being jungle design (monsters, items, jungle bonuses and rewards) and the other being jungler design (e.g. JarvanIV versus Nautilus ). Both strongly tie in together, so that changing one can significantly affect the other, and there are so many cogs in the machine that even simple changes can have massive consequences (4.20 Warwick , for example). This is not a new problem, but this is also not a simple one. It's easy to just sit on the other side, brainstorm solutions that seem self-evidently correct, and wonder why Riot doesn't do the same, but the fact is that Rioters are more aware of this than any other player, and are not only ideating on how to implement positive long-term changes, but are also playtesting them extensively. It's also equally easy to just fixate on the problems: sure, the jungle now isn't in the best shape it could be, but compared to the jungle before it's in a fundamentally better state. As angry as you may be about this apparent lack of progress, it's neither accurate nor particularly constructive to assume that Riot is just sitting there, twiddling their fingers and not making an effort to improve their game. Just pointing out specifics on what needs to be fixed (so not just "there needs to be more diversity", and more along the lines of "I feel champion X outperforms Y, and one needs to be more specialized or better at Z") would already lead to much more interesting discussion.

SmokingPuffinFeb 26, 20151 votes

it's neither accurate nor particularly constructive to assume that Riot is just sitting there, twiddling their fingers and not making an effort to improve their game.

For the record, this doesn't describe my thoughts.

I don't think Riot is working on nothing. I rather like most of their patch changes most of the time. This particular design problem has stumped them since approximately forever ago.

It's also equally easy to just fixate on the problems: sure, the jungle now isn't in the best shape it could be, but compared to the jungle before it's in a fundamentally better state.

Honestly, I think this assessment wildly misses the mark. The new jungle is fine. I rather like some of the new mechanics. The thing is, the old jungle was fine. The one from season 3 worked too.

The thing is, all three of these jungles have been ruled by the same sort of champion. There have been a couple outliers (Kha'Zix being the most notable) but overall, the jungle is ruled by bruisers. Lee Sin is always good. Vi is always good. Jarvan is almost always good; there was a bit of time in season 4 when he wasn't. Elise was always good, then they changed their minds and she became always bad.

None of the bruiser junglers is ever in the desired state, which is "situationally good", because bad class design. They have shown no willingness to take the bruiser junglers and give them a clear set of strengths and weaknesses. They know this is a problem. They've said that many times.

They keep trying to change the jungle, or the items, when neither of those actions has any hope of solving the diversity problem.

tl;dr - There is no set of values for jungle monsters that makes Lee Sin bad. At anything.

Teridax68Feb 26, 20152 votes

{quoted}

None of the bruiser junglers is ever in the desired state, which is "situationally good", because bad class design. They have shown no willingness to take the bruiser junglers and give them a clear set of strengths and weaknesses. They know this is a problem. They've said that many times.

RekSai is an example of a situationally good bruiser jungler. The issue of some junglers being too safe or versatile is also something Riot has acknowledged, along with the issue of bruisers as a class often having design problems. Again, it's not something you can just fix overnight, it's something that's going to require an extremely solid foundation (what are bruisers meant to be good at? What are these bruisers in particular meant to be good at? What are they meant to be the best at, and what are they meant to be weak at?) and a lot of work.

{quoted}

They keep trying to change the jungle, or the items, when neither of those actions has any hope of solving the diversity problem.

The diversity problem isn't just one problem. Again, some problems with diversity come from the jungle and itemization (the jungle doesn't treat tanks super-well as a class), and others come from champions, which is why there are ongoing changes to both.

{quoted}

tl;dr - There is no set of values for jungle monsters that makes Lee Sin bad. At anything.

That's because the problem with Lee Sin comes from Lee Sin himself. There is no change you could ever make to the jungle to discourage Lee Sin because Lee Sin has access to practically every mechanic and build path in the game. If you shift the balance towards tankier junglers, tanky Lee Sin remains strong, and if you shift it towards damage-oriented junglers, glass cannon Lee Sin (or just tanky damage Lee Sin) will still be a thing. No matter which lever you tune in the jungle, Lee will have an answer to it, and that's why he's so hard to kick out of dominance. The changes to the jungle aren't specifically targeted at Lee Sin, even if they do often affect him along with other champions. In order for Lee to become less dominant he's going to need a rework, and that's something Riot have admitted and are working on.

SmokingPuffinFeb 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

is an example of a situationally good bruiser jungler. The issue of some junglers being too safe or versatile is also something Riot has acknowledged, along with the issue of bruisers as a class often having design problems. Again, it's not something you can just fix overnight, it's something that's going to require an extremely solid foundation (what are bruisers meant to be good at? What are these bruisers in particular meant to be good at? What are they meant to be the best at, and what are they meant to be weak at?) and a lot of work.

Rek'sai is a cool design. There's still a big generalist problem. Good clear time. Good sustain. Good dueling. Good invading. Good invasion defense. Good pre-6 ganks. Good post-6 ganks. When is she bad, exactly?

I'm not asking for an overnight fix. Riot identified the problem with bruisers years ago. Wake me when they do something about it. I promise I'm interested.

The diversity problem isn't just one problem. Again, some problems with diversity come from the jungle and itemization (the jungle doesn't treat tanks super-well as a class), and others come from champions, which is why there are ongoing changes to both.

I believe there are zero levers to be found in itemization on this topic. Quill Coat did nothing. Buffing SotAG did nothing. Why? Because bruisers use tank stats at least as well as tanks do.

Similarly, the thesis of the preseason -- that jungle diversity requires sustain to matter -- also turns out to be useless for diversity. Bruisers have better sustain and better clear times than tanks. In fact, it gets worse -- this plan actually reduced diversity, because assassins and light fighters also got priced out by the new jungle.

I think tanks are getting a very fair shake from the jungle. Certainly a better deal than the lanes offer. The class design just plain sucks. Their class strengths list is awful short (durability, cc), and the weaknesses many (bad dueling, bad clears, bad early game, bad laning, poor mobility).

Everything points back to class design, not systems issues.

That's because the problem with Lee Sin comes from Lee Sin himself. There is no change you could ever make to the jungle to discourage Lee Sin because Lee Sin has access to practically every mechanic in the game. If you shift the balance towards tankier junglers, tanky Lee Sin remains strong, and if you shift it towards damage-oriented junglers, glass cannon Lee Sin (or just tanky damage Lee Sin) will still be a thing. No matter which lever you tune in the jungle, Lee will have an answer to it, and that's why he's so hard to kick out of dominance. The changes to the jungle aren't specifically targeted at Lee Sin, even if they do often affect him along with other champions. In order for Lee to become less dominant he's going to need a rework, and that's something Riot have admitted and are working on.

Lee Sin isn't really the problem. He's just the best example of the problem. A Lee rework by itself solves nothing. There are many bruisers between most tanks and viability.

Teridax68Feb 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Rek'sai is a cool design. There's still a big generalist problem. Good clear time. Good sustain. Good dueling. Good invading. Good invasion defense. Good pre-6 ganks. Good post-6 ganks. When is she bad, exactly?

This is the same as asking what Gnar 's weakness is when looking at both his forms at a time. Rek'Sai is super-kiteable when unburrowed, and has no roaming vision or immediate fighting power when burrowed. She has clear yet variable weaknesses, along with clear and variable strengths, which is why she's not as versatile as Lee Sin while still being great at everything she does. If there is a way to make a bruiser do lots of stuff and be strong at all of those things, Rek'Sai and Gnar's design is the way to go (not that every bruiser needs to shapeshift or have situationally gated power).

{quoted}

I believe there are zero levers to be found in itemization on this topic. Quill Coat did nothing. Buffing SotAG did nothing. Why? Because bruisers use tank stats at least as well as tanks do.

I disagree, because Quill Coat significantly helped out tank junglers with their clear while bruisers were better off building damage items. Sure, bruisers still outperformed tanks, but itemization can make a difference.

{quoted}

Lee Sin isn't really the problem. He's just the best example of the problem. A Lee rework by itself solves nothing. There are many bruisers between most tanks and viability.

But again, solving Lee Sin would highlight which other bruisers need changes, since he's pushing other bruisers out due to his versatility. There is no contradiction to be had here.

SmokingPuffinFeb 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

This is the same as asking what 's weakness is when looking at both his forms at a time. Rek'Sai is super-kiteable when unburrowed, and has no roaming vision or immediate fighting power when burrowed. She has clear yet variable weaknesses, along with clear and variable strengths, which is why she's not as versatile as Lee Sin while still being great at everything she does. If there is a way to make a bruiser do lots of stuff and be strong at all of those things, Rek'Sai and Gnar's design is the way to go (not that every bruiser needs to shapeshift or have situationally gated power).

I see what you're saying about Rek'Sai in a tactical sense. Strategically, she's still a generalist. No clear area of the jungler role that she's not strong in. I think it will be very hard to make someone like Nautilus compete with her without one dominating over the other.

I don't think the Gnar comparison is very apt because Rek'Sai can shift forms at will at near zero cost. Gnar I think has quite clear weaknesses, which help to keep him interesting even though he's honestly pretty oppressive on live.

I disagree, because Quill Coat significantly helped out tank junglers with their clear while bruisers were better off building damage items. Sure, bruisers still outperformed tanks, but itemization can make a difference.

Items will never close the gap. Buff Quill Coat to the skies and bruisers just buy it.

But again, solving Lee Sin would highlight which other bruisers need changes, since he's pushing other bruisers out due to his versatility. There is no contradiction to be had here.

Oh, I agree. I just mean that we shouldn't tunnel vision on Lee.

Teridax68Feb 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I see what you're saying about Rek'Sai in a tactical sense. Strategically, she's still a generalist. No clear area of the jungler role that she's not strong in. I think it will be very hard to make someone like Nautilus compete with her without one dominating over the other.

Strategically, Rek'Sai specializes in territorial map dominance, and is weak in places she doesn't have a foothold in. She's actually even more interesting strategically than she is tactically, due to how much gameplay revolves around her tunnels. Nautilus massively outperforms her in crowd control and lockdown at an equally massive cost in DPS, so there are reasons to pick one over the other. Were Nautilus-level crowd control to be valued as much as clearing strength or dueling power, both would be equally valid picks.

More generally, that could even be a potential solution to the tank vs bruiser dilemma: if every jungle monster became more vulnerable to damage while their movement was impaired, just like the Scuttle Crab, or granted some other kind of bonus, CC would become a valuable clearing tool, which would probably buff certain bruisers, but would mostly benefit tanks. Tanks are not just bruisers with less damage, and so I think it's possible to capitalize on what differentiates the two.

SmokingPuffinFeb 26, 20151 votes

I think you're too optimistic here. Nautilus isn't only behind in damage. He's a weaker clearer. He's less sustained. He's worse at invading, He's worse when invaded. He's less safe. He snowballs less. His early ganks are worse, although this improves over time.

In the plus column, Nautilus gets better cc and more durability.

That's a long list of weaknesses to overcome. Getting to the point where heavy cc is similarly valued to fast clears won't get it done, because Rek'Sai has so many other advantages to fall back on. Seems like the game would have to be in a "teamfighting is the only things that matters" for a competitive player to even consider Nautilus over a bruiser jungle.

if every jungle monster became more vulnerable to damage while their movement was impaired, just like the Scuttle Crab, or granted some other kind of bonus, CC would become a valuable clearing tool, which would probably buff certain bruisers, but would mostly benefit tanks.

Tanks do have more CC, but if all you need is some CC, almost every bruiser has something relevant. I mean, basically we're just talking about Shyvana here, right?

Teridax68Feb 26, 20151 votes

I'm not saying the above suggestion will just magically make tank junglers popular, especially since if it were that simple it likely would've been implemented already. My point is that tanks do some things better than bruisers, including the application of crowd control, and it's these advantages that need to be brought out and valued in such a way that tanks are the clear benefactors (so it may not just be the application of CC, but also the sheer volume of it). I do think there's a problem with some overloaded bruisers who will always crowd out tanks no matter what (champions like Lee Sin, Jarvan IV, perhaps even XinZhao , etc.), but that is its own class of problems that needs to be solved through greater specialization. Clear times are also not the only solution: tanks could have greater objective control, improved jungle sustain, or any other kind of advantage, so long as they have a clear set of strengths that doesn't make them blend in with other junglers, or make them perform strictly less well than everyone else.

Overall, I agree that bruisers and tanks get a little too close to each other, but that just means there needs to be greater differentiation between the two through individual champion changes. That said, there are already fairly clear differences (tanks have a lot more CC and end up becoming a bit more resilient, bruisers have better DPS) between the two classes that would be worth exploring further in order to allow for separate balancing of either. The current jungle is better than the previous ones when it comes to buffing certain classes while leaving others more or less intact (via changes to monster buffs, for example), and with some finer tuning we may yet see a jungle where every class can perform well, with its own set of advantages and disadvantages.