Juggernauts like 
and 
are borderline trollpick atm. While no other juggernauts are above a 50% winrate.
I think this indicates a huge problem with the new runes.
Illaoi has no rune now that you cant proc Phase Rush as easily as before, and every other keystone is just meh on her.
Darius doesnt have much of a keystone now that theres no fervor.
And so on.
I honestly think the Juggernauts need to be looked at.
Salron10 votesLots of Darius players used Stormraiders before and he procs Phase Rush just fine I think the issue for him is loss of AS runes + phase rush MS being worse than stormraiders fucks him
Zero Skill Tank9 votesI think the issue for him is loss of AS runes
Loss of runes. In general.
Juggernauts, especially Dario but others as well, are THE MOST stat-dependant champions in the game. Meanwhile reforged runes offer much less raw stats, instead granting other powerful effects. Juggs got hurt, because for them procing said effects is more difficult.
Yorick is an exception, because he makes great use of two runes (demolish + ultimate hat), Riot decided to buff him the same patch, and because he is less stat-dependant (Yorick is all about windows of opportunity in the first place).
Shifue Draven10 votesHonestly all the juggernaut class is in the toilet for the most part. Illaoi needs a rework as she is nothing but an ult machine you can easily dodge her skills as they are slow and telegraphed so hard it's not even funny. Now is the only time i have been hit by her due to the new found lag of the game. Darius has been fading for a while and the runes killed him off. Mord has been dead for a long time he honestly needs to be reworked again. Skarner is rarely picked and his kit seems ok but lack of runes hurts him to as tanks are just nuked before they can engage. I think garen is the only one doing somewhat ok still and it's mostly cause he is not immobile like the rest. Again this is why they should just drop pregame power systems(runes) and just focus on champs and items the game would be better off.
Troll for Trump2 votesGaren, for the longest time was just a shitty Darius.
Trundle has one niche.
Mundo is linear
Olaf has been dead for a good while
Volibear is REALLLY outdated
Udyr probably still needs some touch-ups
Shyv is doing fine right now, but she seems hit-or-miss and has a problem with attack speed items.
Shifue Draven2 votesTrue but garen could just usually overwelm a lane just cause of his constant harrass and sitting back and healing. Trundle has always had a soft spot in my heart but he is a one trick for certain tops and even then he is more a bruiser then anything but i think it's safe to say most of the brisers/juggernauts need some work.
Mundo is very linear and extremely easy to beat build mortal or thornmail and he is done i always curb stomp him on rammus due to that.
Olaf is only good if he pulls ahead early and even then he is easy to just flat out nuke and be done.
voli poor poor voli he was one of my first tank jgs i still love him but honestly he really needs a rework since they gutted the items that gave him power. Then his kit is a joke his ult is a static shiv passive that fires for a time and has bad damage and crap scaling. His only mechanic is to run at you (like 15 champs have a charge snare style that are better (rammus and singed) roar which is just a slow on champs granted it's damage is ok but you have to make that charge work for it to be useful (gl with all the damage and hard cc) and then his bite which is a as speed buff but is mainly just to bite but now getting enough life to do damage is hard.He needs a lot of love.
udyr He now seems rather strong with the new updates but in the same note he has a lot of drawbacks being a jg but in top lane he seems to be fine.
Shyvana is indeed the odd ball as the champ i has the highest mastery with and was my main until i got tired of trying to explain that we need objectives instead of mindless team fights in my elo. She falls in to a odd spot even by riots on words she is a pre juggernaut not really one but yet not a vanguard or a bruiser. She is a animal all to herself which is why i think she has never really been weak while at one time was meta. I usually build her with bloodrazer botrk titanic and then what ever def i need to make it i usually do fine but in the same note depends on lanes etc.
Troll for Trump2 votesTrue but garen could just usually overwelm a lane just cause of his constant harrass and sitting back and healing.
Not so much anymore post-juggernaut rework, because they reduced his early game passive healing, reduced base dmg and silence duration for his ult gimmick, and made his W need minion kills, which would lead to him constantly being in-combat not activating his passive. Post-rework he was even more reliant on ignite to get kills. He used to have a niche as the ultimate Riven counter cuz of his silence and strong early game, but now I think he has a negative winrate vs Riven. Obviously he doesn't scale well into lategame. The buffs Riot gave him are nice, but they're in the wrong direction- Riot is making him more of a tank and less of a juggernaut. He needs more burst dmg not more durability or sustained dmg.
Trundle has always had a soft spot in my heart but he is a one trick for certain tops and even then he is more a bruiser then anything but i think it's safe to say most of the brisers/juggernauts need some work.
I loved Trundle jgl ,but, even by juggernaut standards, his kit is pretty bland. Agreed.
Mundo is very linear and extremely easy to beat build mortal or thornmail and he is done i always curb stomp him on rammus due to that.
Yeah, it's depressing. Mundo jgl is still annoying though.
Olaf is only good if he pulls ahead early and even then he is easy to just flat out nuke and be done.
Brief moment in the sun with righteous glory before it got nerfed.
voli poor poor voli he was one of my first tank jgs i still love him but honestly he really needs a rework since they gutted the items that gave him power. Then his kit is a joke his ult is a static shiv passive that fires for a time and has bad damage and crap scaling. His only mechanic is to run at you (like 15 champs have a charge snare style that are better (rammus and singed) roar which is just a slow on champs granted it's damage is ok but you have to make that charge work for it to be useful (gl with all the damage and hard cc) and then his bite which is a as speed buff but is mainly just to bite but now getting enough life to do damage is hard.He needs a lot of love.
Yeah, just have to bear with it :/
udyr He now seems rather strong with the new updates but in the same note he has a lot of drawbacks being a jg but in top lane he seems to be fine.
I haven't seen enough of him top lane to make a judgment call, don't see him picked a lot either in jg or top.
Shyvana is indeed the odd ball as the champ i has the highest mastery with and was my main until i got tired of trying to explain that we need objectives instead of mindless team fights in my elo. She falls in to a odd spot even by riots on words she is a pre juggernaut not really one but yet not a vanguard or a bruiser. She is a animal all to herself which is why i think she has never really been weak while at one time was meta. I usually build her with bloodrazer botrk titanic and then what ever def i need to make it i usually do fine but in the same note depends on lanes etc.
Her ult doesn't feel ulty enough. I feel like she needs a rework, her dragon form doesn't feel cool enough compared to today's ults. The passive change by Riot a while ago was a really bad idea that made her more feast/famine and farm-reliant. Her basic abilities, while effective just seem... bland. She just runs really fast at you and autoattacks you to death, like a more proactive Yi.
Ben Sharpio7 votesAlso, darius suffers from the flat attack speed being removed. Maybe give us flat attack speed buffs without having to opt into precision,,,
AirKingNeo7 votesNot giving Darius random nerfs over the past 2 years would have been a good idea too.
Oh wait anyone saying Darius shouldn't be nerfed gets downvoted.
no idea for nick7 votesAs a Illaoi player I agree. New runes and stats fucked up brusiers/juggernauts.
And feel bad for 
aswell.
ModCaptainMårvelous6 votesThe runes themselves aren't the issue. The base stats are.
Juggernauts (and divers who have some issues) often went half defensive, half offensive. But now your tree dictates your buffs. So you go resolve tree...and only get HP. No AS, no ad, etc. You go AD? No defense. etc.
They need either stronger base stats or better starting items.
Kats Pajamas5 votesThe runes themselves aren't the issue. The base stats are.
Juggernauts (and divers who have some issues) often went half defensive, half offensive. But now your tree dictates your buffs. So you go resolve tree...and only get HP. No AS, no ad, etc. You go AD? No defense. etc.
They need either stronger base stats or better starting items.
darius has the single highest stat growth in the game, at 100hp/1hps/4 armor per level. He's also in the 53MR and 340 MS groups. His level 5 Q heals him for 36% of his missing health at base irrespective of how much damage he deals with it or what he builds.
he also has insane damage irrespective to what he builds based on resets, his empowered Q at level 5 does like 300+300%, so even with full tank he deals tons of damage.
I'd agree with buffing items, but actually just buffing darius would be ridiculous at this point.
DragonShea5 votesdarius has the single highest stat growth in the game, at 100hp/1hps/4 armor per level. He's also in the 53MR and 340 MS groups. His level 5 Q heals him for 36% of his missing health at base irrespective of how much damage he deals with it or what he builds.
he also has insane damage irrespective to what he builds based on resets, his empowered Q at level 5 does like 300+300%, so even with full tank he deals tons of damage.
I'd agree with buffing items, but actually just buffing darius would be ridiculous at this point.
Darius just needs some tuning but that is easier said than gone. Look at Yorick, he has hardly gotten any hard buffs to his stats, he only hard buff was to his ghouls and maiden. Darius issue lies in him being scary as fuck when he does have power, anytime he does have it' Holy fuck GTFO, when he doesn't, heh he can't even get a stack on me and i am melee.
Kats Pajamas4 votesDarius just needs some tuning but that is easier said than gone. Look at Yorick, he has hardly gotten any hard buffs to his stats, he only hard buff was to his ghouls and maiden. Darius issue lies in him being scary as fuck when he does have power, anytime he does have it' Holy fuck GTFO, when he doesn't, heh he can't even get a stack on me and i am melee.
he's scary because if he gets ahead, he stays ahead, he literally has the highest base stats per level, idk how a stat buff would be healthy at all. If he's a higher level, it's already over.
Yma S2 votesok, so you are kinda low elo and you might not understand this,
But Darius is really trash right now and actually needs buffs
Moonfall Saber1 votesYou still can't 1v1 darius so no your wrong. The thing about Juvgernauts is that you win by not going in to fight them.
PB4UAME3 votesYou are wrong, and don't understand half of what you think you do. Sit down and watch some videos about how to play the game, particularly look into orbwalking, and avoiding threat zones of champions, then come back to the discussion when you're ready.
Yma S1 votesA Bronze 2 is telling me I don't understand the game
hmm
oh that explains it, I hear Darius destroys Bronze
PB4UAME2 votesBronze 2 in flex, since I don't play ranked, and haven't given a shit about any season since season 5. Look up my profile or just click the badge, been gold to plat since season 2. Besides, talking about game knowledge and referring to meaningless rank in an unbalanced system that hasn't been actually competitive in 2+ years is meaningless and an ad hominem. But, if you actually understood things, let alone were familiar with logical fallacies, we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place.
PB4UAME2 votesAlso, you're clearly not the brightest, I replied to Moonfall, not you fuckface.
Moonfall Saber2 votesHow about instead if buffing anything we just nerf adcs and lethality
PB4UAME2 votesYeah, sure if he freely hits 3+ champs with the blade every swing like a goddamn pro.
Also, his Q is "40 / 70 / 100 / 130 / 160 (+ 100 / 110 / 120 / 130 / 140% AD) Reduced to 35% except at the narrow blade" So try litterally one half, to one sixth of that. Stop the blatant fucking hyperbole. And guess fucking what, juggernauts are designed to build mostly defense items, that doesn't make them tanks; they need that durability to function without range, or mobility get the fuck over it.
Troll for Trump2 votesDarius himself probably doesn't need buffs, but he certainly didn't need the arbitrary season 7 nerfs; he was always kinda average/good, but never in the spotlight. Not since the Juggernaut rework season.
CasterGilgamesh3 votesimo there are too many champions with slows and some form of CC so all juggernauts out side of 
get kited hard there is not enough Tenacity in the game for them and even with tenacity there are too much CC that ignores tenacity
Troll for Trump3 votesAnother thing kinda killing him (but also a lot of other classes) is the dmg creep of ADCs and more cc/mobility/stats from support/support-ish champs.
Kloqdq6 votesReally, a lot of the problems in my mind come from the Resolve tree being shit and not allowing for enough offensive power for people that want to do damage but also be tanky.
GrReaper961 votesPlus you only get 130 hp from it, which has the lowest gold value compared to the other 4 trees
Kloqdq1 votesYeah this too. Resolve just lacks the raw defense a Jugg, let alone a tank, needs to be viable. I am just guessing people keep saying tanks are OP so they are reacting to that and making the tank tree less powerful.
Chembaron Yamada1 votesI got quite some offensive value out of Grasp looking at the numbers in match history, though. And if you want to deal more damage, many Juggernauts can make use of Precision as their first tree and Resolve second.
Kloqdq1 votesThe problem is Resolve lacks enough back up defense to be a viable option in the second tree. Yeah, I want to go for Precision or Dom to get more damage but my Resolve tree is so lacking I can't back myself up well enough. So than I either just go for more damage, scaling or utility OR I go into Grasp, and get less powerful runes overall.
I honestly feel that they lowered the tankiness overall just because people keep having so many problems with tanks over the past couple of seasons. That's why something like Iron Skin feels so crappy. Though that is just guess work on my part.
Ben Sharpio5 votesi recently lost a game because of a dumb, asshole illaoi player that REFUSED to group. She was d5 so w/e.
I think riot games needs to look at champions like illaoi. The type of champions that leave you to 4 v 5 and pray to god their team wins on their own. Because any legitimate top laner will let illaoi "splitpush" or do whatever illaoi players like to do when they're afk top lane, and basically win the entire game through tp plays, or simply by TEAMFIGHTING. 5 V 4 teamfights are impossible to win in an even game.
and illaoi players, much like nasus players, refuse to play the god damn game and wonder why they lose or have shitty winrates? Because people in decent elo are able to punish their boring, uninteractive playstyles and help their team.
Was i tilted that the illaoi inted, never grouped, or did anything in my game? Yes, but was i surprised? No, because these players never learn that the playstyle their champions revolve around is fooling low elo players into cheap wins, and being punished by non-retarded players. Horrible, horrible, horrible thing to do to your team.
AFilthyCaitMain16 votesI mean thats just the players though, not really relevant to the champion herself.
Ben Sharpio4 votesI mean thats just the players though, not really relevant to the champion herself.
im saying that the illaoi players need to take some responsibility in the fact that people arent falling for their gimmicky playstyle anymore, and riot needs to do something about these champions that are horrible at decent elo and stomp really bad, low elo players.
AFilthyCaitMain10 votesAh, yes ok. Illaoi is just useless by design. she cant stay by you and you can dodge all her damage.
MistaFarenheit48 votesthe idea of a split push is for your team to NOT FIGHT 4v5 correct? turtle and create pressure by pushing lanes out. you dont fight untill they send multiple people to deal with her or respond to another lane pushing... when the 4v5 becomes a 4v3 is the signal to force fights. im silver and i know this.
Ben Sharpio2 votesthe idea of a split push is for your team to NOT FIGHT 4v5 correct? turtle and create pressure by pushing lanes out. you dont fight untill they send multiple people to deal with her or respond to another lane pushing... when the 4v5 becomes a 4v3 is the signal to force fights. im silver and i know this.
ALRIGHT, maybe that works in the utopian solo queue you play in. But in mine, and many other people's worlds, split pushing is a dead playstyle barely anyone can do properly, and even STILL, people would rather play the game with a team fighting top laner, rather than some dude "creating pressure" while his team gets destroyed.
MistaFarenheit7 votesim not saying its a good strategy especially in higher elos where people know what theyre doing and where to be. id much rather have a top laner thats going to peel for me than a dumbass thats constantly dying 1v3 top lane even tho hes already gotten the second tower.
im just sayin as hes dying 1v3 is your opportunity to get something.
GayFluffyUnicorn15 votesBetter lose and die over and over again than "peeling" an entitled adc player.
MistaFarenheit2 votesso youd rather get gang banged repeatedly and lose the game than protect a champion thats going to win the game for you?
Sir Rethor9 votesAs a support main... yeah kinda sick of entitled marksmen
nelogis11 votesIf the ADC thinks im his shield or peel bot and nothing else im going to sell every single item that benefits a marksmen and play around mid lane every day of the week.
At least mid laners appreciate you for helping them out.
Always a nice sight seeing the ADC flame because his positioning is absolute ass and doesn't get any peel to make up for it.
GayFluffyUnicorn13 votesSplitpushing is not dead but: a) many splitpush at the wrong times b) 99% of all people in soloQ are way too retarded to play with an efficient splitpusher.
notice me Sin pi41 voteswhen the 4v5 becomes a 4v3 is the signal to force fights. im silver and i know this.
may the blessing of the gold elo be with u on season 8
Wolfeur7 votesIllaoi and splitpushing, name a less iconic duo, I'll wait.
Seriously, though, Illaoi is a teamfight monster, not a splitpusher…
Moonfall Saber2 votesIllaoi wants to bring the fight to her though. Going around looking for fights with illaoi is a bad idea
Ryrynounet1 votesflank is still an efficient option for illaoi tho :v
Teridax684 votesTechnically, Predator could be one way of allowing juggernauts to approach the battlefield, but at the end of the day the issue with juggernauts relative to runes is the same as their issues with items, in that there isn't any real way for them to increase their range, nor can they give themselves all that much extra mobility. Squishy classes can get (slightly) more durable and low-damage classes can opt into damage, but low-range classes like juggernauts can't really increase their target access or sticking power in the same way, particularly since most of the movement speed bonuses are out-of-combat only.
Beyond that, though, I think one major problem with juggernauts and runes is that juggernauts require a lot of durability to function, and aside from the large health boost they can get early on, their durability gains are far too low thereafter. Combined with the amount of damage creep that runes brought into the game, this has led to juggernauts often getting killed before they can even get in range. This is also likely why one of the few juggernauts to have any success right now has been Garen, who's a little more mobile than the rest. It feels like Riot's been pushing for tanky champions to peak early and fall off as the game goes on, but the end result of this is that tanky champions get too tanky in lane (any fight against a champion with 1k health at level 1 is a noodle fight, unless you have some seriously overpowered damage), and then can't really function from there on out.
Mordepool2 votesThis about sums it up
Basura Nephilim4 votesGlacial Augment. I had SO much fun with Illaoi. Every W slows the opponent and GUARANTEES a hit from a tentacle if they don't have a dash. You can follow up E (and ult as well).
I can skip Frostborn gauntlet for multiple other items which specialize more for the offensive or defensive part of it.
It's true that this build path on Illaoi isn't as exciting as most other rune paths. But I had such a laugh when I found out how effective it is! :D
https://i.imgur.com/yPUDlAX.png[/img]
I've not been putting a lot of time and effort in the last season though xP (I used to be solid hardstuck D5, well...I hit D4 once while maining Illaoi! =D ) Though i'll admit that the recent meta isn't very favorable to Illaoi, so I pick her less than when she came out. She's still pretty serviceable. Especially since everybody claims assassins run rampant. Meaning if you are near your ADC, you are guaranteed to get an E ult kill on an assassin xP
Sewer Side3 votesGrasp is meh on Illaoi?
I Main Swain2 voteswhat about 
? hes been a trollpick for years now
forreal tho, i think illaoi needs something added onto her kit to help her to keep her target with her or to stick with them herself (the former being much more likely and fitting). maybe riot could make it so that when the soul is destroyed or when its pulled or something youre grounded?
