It's hard to nerf Leblanc without making her bad

Desiderium··76 votes·5,867 views

because of the way her kit is designed. All of it is damage and ways to apply damage tied to mobility and CC. All of it. It's impossible to nerf one part of her kit without making the rest of it terrible.

However what we can do is take away unnecessary power from her. Her Distortion's hitbox is just way too wide right now. It deals damage in an AoE similar to Katarina's spin move (Sinister Blades.) That's a pretty huge PBAoE considering it's also a mobility spell that deals damage that is also able to proc extra damage. The hitbox needs to be normalized. It's way too outrageous right now.

And now her chain hitbox as well. It's way too thick. It also has some kind of strange design flaw that most old skillshots have in which, if aimed diagonally across the map, they are significantly easier to hit for some odd reason (same with Lee Sin Q and a few others.) In addition to this, it also hits when you clearly move out of the way, and misses when it's supposed to hit you dead-on (SKT vs. CJ anyone?)

There's no good way to remove her power because of the way her kit is designed. However, with that said, she's not in dire need of a rework. But what we can do right now is remove this extreme reliability in her damage application via overly forgiving hitboxes.

Reduce Distortion AoE and Chain Hitbox and we should be okay.

Also check out the General Discussion version of this thread. There's a lot of good discussion in it.

PROUD EDIT: Meddler is taking each of my ideas into consideration as well as possibly implementing his own idea with a reduction of her Distortion's travel speed (which I was also thinking about but didn't feel would be very impactful)

{quoted}

Yup, Le Blanc's got some problems. We're doing some work on her at the moment as a result, looking at reducing some mixture of her E's width, her W's travel speed and W's AOE size (unlikely to be all of those at once though). Our goal's to make it easier to react to her casts, whether that's dodging W or E, CCing her as she comes in with W, using defensive abilities on yourself/allies as she W's in or whatever.

132 Comments

DJ Di029 votes

I think they should lower the tether range as well. She has two potential mobility spells, why should she also get to have a higher tether range than the other tethers?

qetzel1 votes

The distance you need to walk to break the tether is actually much lower than many other tethers. It just looks longer because it is calculated as the distance from LeBlanc when it hits you - if Leblanc jumps away between casting and hitting her E, the chain becomes longer, but still breaks after the same distance travelled.

10110011100015 votes

Don't forget her tether applies a 25% slow. ಠ_ಠ

Copelando11 votes

{quoted}

Don't forget her tether applies a 25% slow. ಠ_ಠ

I think her tether's slow is what needs to be removed.

Sleeping Victor6 votes

Have you ever played Nocturne or Karma?

Chaotic Reks12 votes

I remember when the entire community flipped out over her losing her silence, claiming she would be absolute garbage after. We were greatly mistaken

MalzaharAnyLane3 votes

No, without the silence she's an even bigger balance issue than with it.

If she kept her silence and you did these hitbox fixes then she'd be perfect and not the premiere AP Zed.

Galewings8 votes

It sure didn't stop them from making Veigar and Zilean Trash when they were "reworked". Leblanc and Kalista can rot in hell for all I care.

TonyTonyMordecai2 votes

Why is everyone saying Zilean and Veigar are trash? I've played Veigar, he is STILL able to turn into a monster due to his new ability to farm better, not to mention his cage now stops dashes as they are happening. Zilean is now in a better spot because he isn't limited to the boundaries of his targeted Q, and he can zone better, as well as stun everyone in the radius. But please give your reasons.

DanofDemacia7 votes

Make the returning of her w either cost mana or only an option for her distorted one

Desiderium6 votes

{quoted}

Make the returning of her w either cost mana or only an option for her distorted one

Talked about that in the GD thread. It was my idea actually. You can go find it if you want to see it more in-depth but basically what I said was there could be an added mana cost to her Distortion's retreat, but if she hits someone with her Distortion's first cast, the retreat would cost no mana. Keep in mind that this is assuming the hitbox is normalized, meaning she actually has to aim and put herself at some measure of risk to hit someone with Distortion.

Metikulus7 votes

I don't think there is a problem with Leblanc right now. I think she's in a pretty good spot. However, I would not be opposed to reducing the hitbox on her Ethereal Chains (the hitbox on Distortion is fine). Also, adding a mana cost to jump back to a platform wouldn't be terrible either.

AtheosisX16 votes

{quoted}

I don't think there is a problem with Leblanc right now. I think she's in a pretty good spot. However, I would not be opposed to reducing the hitbox on her Ethereal Chains (the hitbox on Distortion is fine). Also, adding a mana cost to jump back to a platform wouldn't be terrible either.

There is always going to be a problem with Leblanc, not in terms of her being overpowered, which I don't think she is, but in terms of the way she is designed. Everything about her kit is designed to minimize how much opponents can interact with her and it makes her extremely annoying to face. She's one of those champs that is simply extremely unfun to play against, much like Fizz.

Metikulus1 votes

{quoted}

There is always going to be a problem with Leblanc, not in terms of her being overpowered, which I don't think she is, but in terms of the way she is designed. Everything about her kit is designed to minimize how much opponents can interact with her and it makes her extremely annoying to face. She's one of those champs that is simply extremely unfun to play against, much like Fizz.

I don't think either are unfun to play against. They both can be beaten. Many other champs have ways of neutralizing/dodging damage as well.

AtheosisX9 votes

{quoted}

I don't think either are unfun to play against. They both can be beaten. Many other champs have ways of neutralizing/dodging damage as well.

Where did I say they can't be beaten?

Metikulus1 votes

There is an awful lot of qq in your post. They have clear weaknesses, and if you can't exploit them, it's on you. It isn't because they are "broken".

Phoenix Kotori 12 votes

Leblanc doesn't have clear weakness. She has enough burst to chunky even the tankiest of people for 60% of hp every 18 seconds late game is extremely difficult to lockdown due to CC, 2x mobility, and her passive.

Please tell me what her "weakness" is, and no using w to wave clear isn't a weakness.

Auryiel5 votes

Lack of AoE CC, mostly single-target damage, no poke unless she puts herself at risk, no zone control, can't initiate a fight, she's not tanky, she's not very good from behind, no sustain

I agree that LeBlanc needs changes, but let's not go around claiming she has no weaknesses because that's simply not true

Cosnirak9 votes

She doesn't put herself at risk to poke because she chooses when to blink in and out and it's too fast for most to react, especially because she can wait till most mid laner's put any abilities that would work good there on cd for any other reason. Also her chain.

Her mere presence anywhere nearby is zone control do to the threat of her burst and escape.

She initiates fights by crossing a wall, killing a carry, and leaving instantly. Winning the fight before it starts is one hell of an initiation.

She's the tankiest champion in the game. You can't kill what you can't hit.

She's amazing from behind. And from the front. And the sides... Seriously though good luck putting her behind haha.

Her sustain is amazing. Taking 0 damage and having pathetically low mana costs means near infinite sustain in fact.

(in case you didn't get the joke... all of her weaknesses mean nearly nothing if she dodges everything, which she's the best at doing in the entire game, plus she out trades everyone due to stupidly high damage and doesn't die easy even when things go wrong thanks to her passive)

Auryiel2 votes

Honestly you're just as bad as the guy I replied to, you're just purposefully ignoring her actual weaknesses because of undue bias.

I really hope you weren't hoping to be taken seriously.

Oh and if you're gonna claim this is a joke... Well hey next time try to be funny?

Cosnirak4 votes

You didn't find my sarcastic response to your terrible post funny?! Oh noes! What ever shall I do?

Seriously, your claims about her 'weaknesses' are really missing the point. All of her weaknesses that you stated DO exist, but they are largely MITIGATED by her mobility and damage. Stop taking clearly non literal posts literally. No one is actually pretending she doesn't have weaknesses.

Auryiel1 votes

You might as well actually be doing that, there's no difference between that and what you're doing right now. You didn't actually offer any argument to support your position.

Valthan6 votes

Neither did you, actually. Please, do tell, what are her weaknesses in lane exactly?

Squishy? Okay, so I just have to hit her, right? Hmm... the second I throw any skillshot she just dives past it and blows my ass up. I need to survive that. She moves too much, so I'll need CC too. That CC can't be a skill shot, because it'll miss.

So, I need to be tanky enough to survive her burst, enough sustain to stay in lane when she tries to blow me up anyway, and point n' click hard CC... That leaves who? I can only think of Ryze and Taric. There may be more, but that's just 2 champions out of 124. Doesn't sound very healthy for the game to me.

Let's change our thinking a bit. What if we just sustain all her damage away and forget about killing her? That opens up tanky sustain champs like Dr. Mundo, Garen, Trundle and Cho'gath. But you're pretty much guaranteed to take flak for trying to take Dr. Mundo, Garen or Trundle mid. Cho'gath you can get away with, though. But if Leblanc has any brain at all, she won't bother trying to lane against you and go farm champions in the other lanes every chance she gets. So, that doesn't work either.

At this point, I think the best way I can deal with Leblanc is to either ban her or dodge when spotted on the enemy team and never ever play blind pick.

Phoenix Kotori 11 votes

AoE CC lacking isn't a weakness it's something 70-80% of champions have.

So what it if she is single focused, she can delete people in less than a second and get out and do it again in 18 seconds or less.

LOL are you really implying distortion and her passive don't reduce that risk to non-existent you have half a second to CC her or even if you do her passive breaks CC and saves her.

No zone control? Are you fucking trolling? Her presence zones squishies because of her deletion range and power.

She can't a initiate a team fight sure, but she's an assassin that's typical of her class, and she can sure initiate skirmishes or picks.

And she has monster base damages she's fine when she's behind.

Dracid2 votes

{quoted}

Leblanc doesn't have clear weakness. She has enough burst to chunky even the tankiest of people for 60% of hp every 18 seconds late game is extremely difficult to lockdown due to CC, 2x mobility, and her passive.

Please tell me what her "weakness" is, and no using w to wave clear isn't a weakness.

that is her weakness though. you shove into tower when you lane against her and she HAS to burn a lot of mana if she wants to get the majority of it. Her waveclear sucks. you play someone who has good waveclear, shove to tower and roam

Metikulus2 votes

{quoted}

Leblanc doesn't have clear weakness. She has enough burst to chunky even the tankiest of people for 60% of hp every 18 seconds late game is extremely difficult to lockdown due to CC, 2x mobility, and her passive.

Please tell me what her "weakness" is, and no using w to wave clear isn't a weakness.

She lacks wave-clear, opening her team up to sieges. This also allows other midlaners to shove her in, removing her roaming potential. This drastically cuts down on her ability to snowball. Most of the time in lane, she will use Distortion for trades. This means she will dash in your direction, if not directly on top of you, making it predictable and opening her up to your cc. She is also VERY squishy.

AtheosisX4 votes

{quoted}

There is an awful lot of qq in your post. They have clear weaknesses, and if you can't exploit them, it's on you. It isn't because they are "broken".

Whatever man. I can deal with both fine most of the time but their kits are unpleasant to play against in the extreme regardless.

Anidan2 votes

As a person who loves playing Fizz: Yeah, seriously. The fish is really fun to play as (in my personal opinion, others may not share the sentiment) but damn is he annoying to play against. Even worse when you're up against a good Fizz. He becomes a nigh-unkillable sharkpedo aimed right at you.

And LeBlanc.. I don't play her, but screw her. I tend to play a lot of squishies, so she's pretty much my mortal nemesis. Her presence alone is pretty much enough to keep me away from a lot of fights, which is... well, pretty friggin' bad. I'm used to it from other games, but it's pretty bad regardless.

That said, I wouldn't mind if we reduced the hitboxes of a her two abilities listed (chain and W)... as well a few others, like Amumu's hilariously merciful Q. Seriously, that doesn't feel like he's throwing a bandage, its width feels crazy.

OverpoweredSoap5 votes

Isn't that kind of a sign that she should be reworked? (Albeit, just a tiny bit, not her whole kit)

Solidair34 votes

I don't have a problem with her. She's countered by a lot of the more unpopular midlaners.

Gorgiolio4 votes

Add a mana cost to her ultimate.

Cosnirak3 votes

100% agree! I don't want her to be unplayable but by god she is way too good right now. Look at her pick/ban at the MSI for a recent example of how badly ahead of the rest she's become. Another possible option would be a reduction to how far she can blink, just like they did with Kassadin (though probably not that large a % reduction needed).

Euijin Song3 votes

Um, leave LB alone she's fine, especially seeing as assassins are useless in this meta. LB mains already have enough trouble fighting as it is, let alone if she gets nerfed.

GorillazNtheMyst3 votes

Maybe it's because I'm low elo, but I honestly can't remember the last time I won a game against a Leblanc. I feel like she just blows up my entire team, and personally I have no idea how to really play against her, nor does anyone else at this level. One thing I think would be a fair nerf to her (and Zed) would be to limit the range at which she can port back to her distortion pad. I love when Leblancs distort in, roam around causing havoc, and then just tap w to get out of Dodge instantly. Not entirely easy to play against, and pretty hard to even CC effectively. Doesn't help that her passive is basically ALWAYS up, so killing her even if you CC her is tricky. That moment of invisibility is kind of OP, because even though you can tell which one is the real LB by clicking on them they've usually used that moment of invis to get out of the way so that killing them isn't really an option. So I think there are definitely aspects of her kit that you could nerf without really damaging the overall champion, that would at least make her a little easier to play against.

Rand0mH3r0X2 votes

I would just prefer the tip of her chain be her hitbox. Sometimes I flash forward to avoid spells, but if I flash behind her I still get hit and it flips around her. Other times are when she's thrown it, missed me, but I walk into the length of the chain and then it's snapped on me.

Katariken2 votes

I think that she needs more damage on the mark's explosion (second damage of her Q) but tons of less damages on her W (with % more damage on monsters and minions to compensate her wave clear). Just this.

I really hate being detroyed by her W. Her E is fine, I think. But W+R(W) double times it's so frustrating.

Blainezy2 votes

Her ult needs a mana cost to fix a lot of her problem.

Teridax682 votes

Cleaning up Leblanc's hitboxes would likely help make her easier to read, and would punish her a bit harder for launching her abilities willy-nilly in melee range, but I don't think that would really get to the heart of what makes her so highly banned and disliked right now: in the end, Leblanc's main problem is that she can dive her target from massive ranges near-instantly, launch her full burst at them while only giving them minimal time to react, and retreat just as easily. There's a lot of stuff about her that's pretty cool, like her deception and juking power, but in the end she's never going to be healthy if she can just keep on unloading her full burst without too much input from her target. Making her spell hitboxes less generous would make her burst more difficult to land, but at higher levels people would still ban Leblanc because players who've mastered her would still be able to land all of those spells with similar levels of reliability.

Along with the changes you mentioned, I think Leblanc could probably do with a new Q. Back when it could silence enemies, it was terrible because it removed the ability to react from her opponents, and now it's still pretty bad, since it's point-and-click damage that can double up on itself via QRQ to act as an even bigger nuke, all while still not really providing any opportunity for her target to outplay her. Despite its hitbox, Leblanc's E is a pretty good ability, since it forces her to stay close to her opponent to get the most out of it, which in turn allows them to retaliate against her or avoid some of her damage, and I think her Q should follow similar gameplay lines: if Leblanc's Q were designed to encourage more interaction between her and her opponent, whether it be via delayed damage, less reliable targeting or forced commitment (or all of those), Leblanc would likely become a lot better to deal with, and could probably also afford tons more power across her kit.

CISTERN2 votes

How to make lebitch balanced, lebitch cant mimic w, compensation buff for that: mimic q do full damage without need for triggering the mark.

More range dps, less mobility= zonable

DemiluniS1 votes

Buffing her point and click? People gonna bitch about her even more

CISTERN2 votes

{quoted}

Buffing her point and click? People gonna bitch about her even more

How to make lebitch balanced, lebitch cant mimic w, compensation buff for that: e gains additional 400 range and the chain cant break, also one missile speed buff or hitbox buff could be fine as addition at her e

What about that?

Skypual2 votes

She isn't OP in my perspective. Yeah, she can go in and kill a SINGLE PERSON, then get out while Katarina does same to group of enemies. It might be only me but teamfighting is more important than single target burst.

Rıots Bad Client2 votes

Make her Distortion deal Half the damage(Or a middle ground) but deals double damage against isolated targets. This will give a huger window for her opponent as they can farm safely and they can push the wave as she will have troubles clearing them) (her Mimic-Distortion Can deal the full damage to every thing around. )

Zair Umbras1 votes

Honestly? Give her a 1-2s delay on her W so she actually has to put herself at risk when W'ing. Unlike most dashes, she has the ability to return to her own. She'd keep her slipperiness, but she'd actually have to put herself at risk against melee if she chooses to Q+W at them.

DemiluniS1 votes

She already puts herself in risk dashing on top of someone. Other mages doesn't even need to get in melee range to deal their damage, unless they are specialized for it, like lissandra or swain, both with tons off cc, invulnerabilty and sustain .

Zair Umbras2 votes

None of those mages have her kind of reliable damage.. And unlike Liss and Swain, she can actually 100-0 most champions with only 3 buttons, using far less mana than Swain and Liss. She shouldn't have the safety that she does really. You can say she 'goes into melee range', but when it comes down to it, you can press the W half way to the target, do your damage, and be back at your original spot without having yourself actually in danger. You go the full distance, but considering how fast the dash goes and insta-port back into place, there is no counterplay unless you're really unlucky and the enemy uses a displacement when you W, thus preventing it, but then you can still W back and wait a few seconds for it to come back up.

Desiderium1 votes

ONE OF THE CHANGES WENT THROUGH!

KazaLyn Shao1 votes

Maybe true, but that's not a good reason not to nerf her. Poor design is poor design. Tell rito to stop making champions they can't balance.

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