The Zac rework made him more of a problem it feels like.

it be lìke that·Sep 9, 2017·36 votes·1,596 views

I loved and highly prefer old Zac, now his ult just seems like it can be TOO good. It honestly seems like he was forced into a niche role with only a few dedicated people who continue to try and make him work.

His jungle clear do to W nerfs early is worse than just about any other tanks clear in speed and hp lost.

His old ult had utility in the knock up and actually did damage, a good flash ult was awesome to pull off. It doesn't feel like he was balanced, it feels like he was changed, then it turned into an "oh shit, we may have made a mistake..." Then he was nerfed into the ground.

Why not Revert ability changes, keep the stupid impact zone circle if you must even and keep looking into options?

Don't force him into obscurity like :

I don't want my teammates to be "christ a zac main gg"

37 Comments

LankPantsSep 10, 20177 votes

Yeh, the Zac and Sejuani reworks were both beyond horrible. Easily the best thing Riot could do would be to revert both.

AbibyamaSep 10, 20173 votes

No fuck you I don't want Sejuani to be reverted into ''Having great ult, but useless without it'' and a shit passive and far worse clear speed.

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

LankPantsSep 10, 201712 votes

No fuck you I don't want Sejuani to be reverted

"No, fuck you I don't want to lose my OP, broken by design freelo champ".

Mate this is what your argument boils down to. New Sej is utter cancer for the game, old Sej was far less so. This is a prime example of where 'revert and never look back' is a great strategy.

far worse clear speed

You have no idea what you're talking about and you proved that with this statement.

New Sej has garbage clear speed. She lacks the AoE to deal with camps in the same way that old did. Old Sej was actually pretty fucking quick in the jungle since her W was so efficient at dealing with multicreep camps.

ABlueQuakerSep 10, 20172 votes

New Sej has garbage clear speed. She lacks the AoE to deal with camps in the same way that old did. Old Sej was actually pretty fucking quick in the jungle since her W was so efficient at dealing with multicreep camps.

Honestly, both Pre-Rework and Post-Rework Sejuani have a terrible first clear (and this is coming from someone who played most of his Ranked games on Sejuani last season).

I had to quit playing Old Sejuani last season because of the combination of Jungle nearly killing me and Jungle Graves being able to clear fast & healthy enough to rock up at my red with full HP and both of his flask charges.

LankPantsSep 10, 20172 votes

Honestly, both Pre-Rework and Post-Rework Sejuani have a terrible first clear (and this is coming from someone who played most of his Ranked games on Sejuani last season).

Using the appeal to authority based on Sej games played against me doesn't really work, considering I have the most Sej games on the OCE server and have over 500k mastery points.

Old Sej had a better first clear by quite a lot, new Sej has a better 3 camp by a little bit. Old Sej also had a jungle clear that scaled up well while new Sej has a 400 damage E at all stages as her main clear tool, the static damage makes her utterly reliant on Cinderhulk. This is fine with the meta in its current state of the jungle overvaluing 3 camps and with Cinder currently being strong enough to solokill the jungle, but if one of these things ever changes to not be true then Sej is in a lot of trouble.

Old Sej was also plenty fast, she full cleared significantly faster than new Sej, you're right in that sustain was an issue, but there were workarounds to this, I tended to start Machete+3 pots to maximise sustain and go for a full clear against less aggressive junglers, I'd still be at full HP by the end of red, I'd drop low after Krugs but invasions at Krugs are pretty rare anyway.

The thing is that Sej never had a slow clear, this is something that people who never played her like to assume and spurt out randomly. Sej's clear was always the second amongst tank junglers, close to Amumu. She could clean the jungle sub 4 min before Krug splitting was introduced, which means her clearspeed was closer to Shyvana than Lee Sin. The problem is that a lot of people slowed themselves down with Talisman on Blue starts, which is just sub-optimal.

ABlueQuakerSep 10, 20171 votes

Agreed. Speed wasn't necessarily the issue wish old sej as much as Health Sustain.

I really miss my 5-man Sej ults though. Kinda wish Riot just made old Sej's first clear a bit healthier instead of reworking her.

Nowadays I only pick her if Maokai gets banned.

AbibyamaSep 10, 20171 votes

{quoted}

"No, fuck you I don't want to lose my OP, broken by design freelo champ".

Mate this is what your argument boils down to. New Sej is utter cancer for the game, old Sej was far less so. This is a prime example of where 'revert and never look back' is a great strategy.

You have no idea what you're talking about and you proved that with this statement.

New Sej has garbage clear speed. She lacks the AoE to deal with camps in the same way that old did. Old Sej was actually pretty fucking quick in the jungle since her W was so efficient at dealing with multicreep camps.

Lmao wait she lacks the aoe? Her w? Yeah I have no idea what I'm talking about.

I have played both pre rework and post rework sejuani. And fuck the old one

Her clear speed is infinitely better

E dealing 10% max health at level 1 is no joke. And her W can easily clear raptors and with talisman and staying healthy. She can also pretty much one shot the scuttle at lvl 3

Old sejuani had slow clear, her and e was so fucking garbage it's actually funyy is worse early game than the new one, enemy jungler shows up at your jungle? Old sej was dead and useless without her ult, new sej can fight him with w and e frost stun and passive resistances

Also she scales better due her frost passive.

Sure her old ult was great but be honest you literally couldn't do anything. new sejuani can skirmish greatly, her team fight is still good. She can actually do stuff

Downvote me all you want nerds. This is the place where old galio was the pinnacle of champions design after all hehe

Mens Hair ClubSep 10, 201714 votes

"useless without ult"

riot shill detected

AbibyamaSep 10, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mens Hair Club,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hR3ebtXt,comment-id=000400000001,timestamp=2017-09-10T10:23:45.148+0000)

"useless without ult"

I don't agree with you, must be riot shill

Nice counter argument

it be lìke thatSep 10, 20172 votes

she was pretty good before, she is insane now.

early she can bully anyone out of their jungle with insane burst damage.

nGioSep 10, 20175 votes

Now he's just a cc support who jungles. When I play him now, I spend a lot more time sitting in a bush waiting for my adc to get there, because Zac's damage is such absolute shit that I fear the 1/4 health enemy adc.

Everything fun gets stripped out in reworks, streamlined, and made to do 1 function favorable to LCS plays. I miss 5 BF Kat, top lane Zac, and AP Yi. From champion reworks, to ranked games, to itemization, everything just looks the exact same from game to game. I'm at a point now where all I'm playing are ARAMs, waiting for URF/Hexakill/OFA, so that I can get some rl friends back on for a weekend of fun.

TormentulaSep 9, 20174 votes

Riot wouldn't revert him because they know it'd cost them money.

They'd have to make models and animations for SKT t1 Zac to work with the old animations since they likely just made the skin with the newer ones.

it be lìke thatSep 9, 20172 votes

i don't expect it to happen by any means, but a man can dream.

InfernapeSep 9, 20173 votes

Ah I miss playing top lane Zac.

AmetDeCryptSep 9, 20172 votes

tahm is obscure? I wasn't aware of that.

it be lìke thatSep 9, 20174 votes

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/tahmkench

2.2% popularity 45% winrate. yeah thats pretty obscure.

AmetDeCryptSep 11, 20171 votes

I like tahm. he's among those tanks like braum and taric that always make you go "oh I forgot they did damage" as they proceed to win all the early trades ever.

also I love people downvote me saying I wasn't aware he wase obscure, like "NO YOU FUCKIN KNEW I KNOW THIS"

it be lìke thatSep 11, 20171 votes

i mean, downvotes don't really mean that. just that they disagree.

tahm is just questionable in soloq and it never goes well since its hard to pair his ult with a random.

AmetDeCryptSep 12, 20171 votes

tru. I usually pick him with someone who knows what to do with him. also I just like to think that's why they downvoted. you know there's someone somewhere on this board high enough to do something like that.

chipndip1Sep 9, 20171 votes

Pro play he's doing fine. Solo queue he's hot trash.

Dani El PezgloboSep 10, 20171 votes

He NEED be on premade , its like kalista , she can work on soloQ , but shine on teams

I Main SwainSep 10, 20172 votes

I LOVED the old zac, i will say that he needed a buff but i loved the kit and plastyle. basically i would love if they just reverted the entire latest tank rework, they were all 10x more fun before and frankly all of them were pretty unsuccessful imo anyways

GelsominoKillerSep 10, 20172 votes

I hoped that with time, Riot would abandon the ""balancing"" practice of kneecapping champions in terms of resources (clear speed and health for jungle, Mana in general).

I do like new Zac's Q. It's flat out a better spell. However, I will forever miss his old ult. It was fair, balanced and way funnier. New ult created a shitload of issues, as a spell it is either underwhelming or opressive, and will never find true balance.

Instead of putting extra work into it, they artificially lowered Zac's winrate by gimping his ability to jungle effectively.

it be lìke thatSep 10, 20171 votes

It is, really the only thing Q was for was to "OH NO YOU FUCKING DONT, HIYAAAA" and last hit someone running away.

chipndip1Sep 9, 20171 votes

My issue with Zac is that, unlike Mao, who's geared for follow-up engage and flanks, and Sejuani, who's geared for fighting with melee allies and locking down targets one at a time, Zac's cc is still REALLY generalized. Overall, you can't really point at a general strength or weakness of the champ. I think he should be geared away from single-target lock down by decreasing the amount of knock-up time he gets off of E, or making that scale with its overall charge. That way he's encouraged to set off big fights by flying in, but he's discouraged from randomly flinging it on top of someone for free cc. His Q already requires two targets for it to hard cc anyone, and his R needs a charge before he can displace people. Working his E in this fashion will round him out as a jungling tank geared for larger scale fighting and aoe cc more than the others.

Mens Hair ClubSep 10, 20171 votes

it already scales with charge

and as we saw before they did this, he was complete and utter dog shit because reworked E's measly .5s knock-up not letting him guarantee his ult meant he was never actually a threat. of course, that got buffed, and then he turned cancer, so Riot responded by kneecapping his clear speed and then he promptly returned to the dumpster. for soloQ at least ,i don't know how successful he is in pro atm

chipndip1Sep 10, 20171 votes

Well then...fuck...

NineTailedMysticSep 10, 20171 votes

Zac definitely had a lot of problem pre-Update, but no one played him so no one cared.

it be lìke thatSep 10, 20171 votes

I played him. So untrue. At least 1.

it be lìke thatSep 10, 20171 votes

I wouldn't wish this treatment on any champion. I am not am amazing league player, last season was my first season and I made it to gold solely on my Zac.

I've played like 1 ranked game as him since I started up again with these changes. It was awful. I couldn't gank mid at level 3 with 2 points in e effectively, because my hp was really low already and taking virtually any damage would force a scuttle or back costing time.

Tried to solo an adc with 40% hp, something I coulda done with my pinky toe before. Did maybe 20% of his health in full rotation and then Draven just knockbacked and ran..

Sire HippingtonSep 10, 20171 votes

that's prettymuch true for all the tank reworks(and actually many others imo) Seju was alot more healthy for the game with a way different niche, mao remained a generalistic tank just even stronger for coordinated teams due to much better CC, Gallio got turned into a generalistic tank aswell....

it be lìke thatSep 10, 20171 votes

mao and sej will get kneecapped next im sure, they are both insanely strong.

Mao is just a universally good pick for top and jungle. Sej is the strongest bully early game.

Im just a salty 1 trick really.

Rito ZacSep 11, 20171 votes

I too miss the old Zac, but frankly the new one seems alright. While the ult is a complete 'hit or miss' (epecially if you bring in the enemy tank, oh boy), I find it more rewarding than the old ult, which was just a bunch of jumping around. Don't get me wrong, the old Zac ult was beyond fun, jumping around like the goofball Zac is, but regardless the new Zac just has more to add to his bizarre nature. I still play him top, but now it's really dependent on who you are up against, and the reliability on your jung really skyrockets. His damage got nerfed to the ground, but that won't stop me from playing him, besides Ranked of course. But what do I know, I'm just an unranked pleb that mains a walking pile of goo since season 3. (I think it's season 3...it was around the time Lissandra was added to the champion roster...)

it be lìke thatSep 11, 20171 votes

The new ult is undeniably better, the old really was such just for a knock up and push more damage. His current ult i fear will never allow him to be strong again, it is too powerful of a tool.

The trade off for it appears to be, awful at everything but 0.5 second knock ups every 15 seconds.

KuwabaramulberrySep 11, 20171 votes

Does no one else build rylai's on zac? I still feel like he does perfectly fine. But I'm silver 6 so meh.

it be lìke thatSep 11, 20171 votes

in S6 absolutely, but now? Eh. he has absolutely no damage, there doesn't seem to be a point in building any AP. You can clear well enough after sunfire, you should really just be focused on survival for engages it seems.