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A Way to Help Tanks Survive

FarRockBF··20 votes·2,544 views

Getting tanks back into the flavor is not going to be easy. But as a Mundo/Nunu hopeful, there is one issue above all that I struggle with: What first item do I buy vs a well balanced team?

Last night I was playing vs a Rengar/Jax/Vlad (3v3) - a perfect mix of AD/AP. I was Mundo - I love building spirit visage first but I got the feeling that Rengar was going to get fed. They all had 3 kills. There is no way to deal with this! The only well split item is GA and that is a late game item. In the end I did half builds for other items just so that I could have a fair mix of HP, armor, and Magic Res. Was the last guy in game to have a full first item despite having great jungle farm and KDA.

My proposal: The Trinity Force for tanks.

Cost: 3800 Gold Armor: 50 Magic Res: 50 Health: 500 Build Path: Giants Belt, Warden's Mail, Negatron Cloak, +Gold

Passive: Blocks incoming spell or AA from an enemy champion. Resets every 60 seconds.

Obviously this is a very rough draft; but as a tank jungler I would love this item.

And no; this new mixed "ZZ" item is not the answer. It is VERY cost inefficient and builds no HP.

37 Comments

NamesRHard7 votes

I wonder how hard it would be to make an item with a toggle. Then you could have an item with health plus either armor or mr, but not both at the same time. Give it a 30-45 sec cool down between toggling so there are consequences if you choose poorly.

Around 450 health with a choice of 35 armor or mr would probably not be bad. It would not be as slot efficient as a true armor or mr item, but you trade efficiency for versatility.

Zydron1 votes

Similar to how power treads work in Dota, except it has a cool down

+1 rito plz

BastionKross5 votes

ARAM has much the same problem. If you're a tank, you're most likely going to be facing down both physical and magic damage from five opponents right from the word go. Normally this wouldn't be a big problem since you can just stack health and grab resistances as they're needed, but item 3083 doesn't exist in ARAM. The next highest HP item is a item 3022, and that's not an answer for several reasons.

item 2051 is the closest thing we have to your idea. It grants health and health regen, and has an active that boosts armor and MR, all for cheap enough that you can buy it right at the start of the game. Sadly, this item doesn't upgrade at all, and if you're someone who forgets your items have actives it's not a worthwhile purchase. Maybe your item could upgrade from the horn, so tanks can have something safe to rush against mixed damage in ARAM.

SciencePrime3 votes

This is a cool idea. We need more tank items.

ResponsibleDad3 votes

I love tanks but usually buy my first item as damage as a tank for fear of this happening. This sort of item would negate that from happening; so a big +1.

P.S. I hate ZZ Top's new item.

Dr Clueless PhD2 votes

I don't play 3v3, so if there's a map-specific reason my answer is bad here, I apologize.

The answer there would be to buy Health items, and then build them into combination items later. Get a Giant's Belt with the intent of an Omen or Sunfire Cape once you have more money. Get a Ruby Crystal to build into Spectre's Cowl later on. Hell, if no-one is showing signs of being a bigger damage threat, and you really can't figure out what to do with your Health now that you have more gold, build a Warmog's first.

Anyway, there's a very good reason there's not a universal tank item, because every tank would build it every game. Even the Armor/MR item coming out (the portal) is designed to be a situational purchase.

FarRockBF7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Clueless PhD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hLvHXF5q,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2014-12-15T15:45:54.391+0000) I don't play 3v3, so if there's a map-specific reason my answer is bad here, I apologize.

The answer there would be to buy Health items, and then build them into combination items later. Get a Giant's Belt with the intent of an Omen or Sunfire Cape once you have more money. Get a Ruby Crystal to build into Spectre's Cowl later on. Hell, if no-one is showing signs of being a bigger damage threat, and you really can't figure out what to do with your Health now that you have more gold, build a Warmog's first.

Anyway, there's a very good reason there's not a universal tank item, because every tank would build it every game. Even the Armor/MR item coming out (the portal) is designed to be a situational purchase.

That's not a very good answer and here is why:

"The answer there would be to buy Health items, and then build them into combination items later. Get a Giant's Belt with the intent of an Omen or Sunfire Cape once you have more money."

How come ADCs can ALWAYS rush their first item? Same with mages? So tanks should be the only champs who don't get cool full item passives? Seems fair...

"Anyway, there's a very good reason there's not a universal tank item, because every tank would build it every game."

Every tank already buys: Randuins, Sunfire, and Banshees.

Dr Clueless PhD3 votes

Well, if your build is already decided for you (Omen, Sunfire, Banshee's), then obviously you should have built those 3 items in that game, and this proposed item is unnecessary. :)

FarRockBF2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Clueless PhD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hLvHXF5q,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2014-12-15T16:07:28.423+0000) Well, if your build is already decided for you (Omen, Sunfire, Banshee's), then obviously you should have built those 3 items in that game, and this proposed item is unnecessary. :)

Did you read my post? The problem is early game when you need to make a decision whether you are first building armor or magic pen. If you build one and the other type of enemy gets fed you are USELESS as a tank!

{quoted} or just build hp.

This use to work. But now everyone just builds BOTRK and your HP is gone.

Dr Clueless PhD6 votes

Yeah, I did read it. That response was mostly a joke.

My real answer is my second post, and here's supplement to it:

Because defensive purchases are reactionary, it's entirely reasonable to expect that you can't finish a major item before having to buy other things. That's the nature of the beast: if you build a Chain Vest, but suddenly need MR, you can't take the time to finish that Sunfire Cape.

This is necessary. There can't be a tank item that is the answer to everything, or the reactive nature of defensive purchasing is eliminated.

FarRockBF1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Clueless PhD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hLvHXF5q,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2014-12-15T16:20:47.587+0000) This is necessary. There can't be a tank item that is the answer to everything, or the reactive nature of defensive purchasing is eliminated.

Why is that needed? When you have one person defending vs five, especially in a meta where tanks are weak I would say that is a very unfair thing to asks of tanks. "Buy whatever until one enemy champ gets fed and then buy those items"?

Dr Clueless PhD5 votes

Because defense has options, and offense really doesn't. When you're playing an AP mid, your only real option is to put out more and more magic damage. When you're playing Marksman, your only real option is to put out more and more physical damage. You can use penetration, but you're still doing the same thing.

Defense has options, relatively speaking. Defense is an item class defined by options. You can stack 4 big armor items, with AS Slow and damage reflect for example. You can buy heavy MR with a spell shield and a lot of regen. You can itemize your defenses for CDR, if you like. Damage classes have different item options, but the options they actually have are more limited in scope. Because defense has those options, you have to keep it balanced by making people have to choose and use them. If that's not the case, you can build your Generic Defense Item X, and THEN go on to buy from the optional components without fear that you need anything specific.

If you can buy, as a tank, a general item that fills your defensive needs, you're cushioned. You can then make full use of the defensive options available without sacrificing anything for those choices.

FarRockBF2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Clueless PhD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hLvHXF5q,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2014-12-15T16:39:12.130+0000) If you can buy, as a tank, a general item that fills your defensive needs, you're cushioned. You can then make full use of the defensive options available without sacrificing anything for those choices.

Ummm. Isn't a mage "cushioned" by buying AP items and void staff? She can kill anything this way. How about Vayne with BOTRK and last whisperer? There is NO defense. So if they can be all damaging I don't see why tanks can't be "all-defending"

Dr Clueless PhD3 votes

Because those characters became "all-damaging" with TWO big item purchases, not one. You just gave that yourself. Tanks already have that capacity; you can buy a big Armor item and a big MR item.

FarRockBF2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Clueless PhD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hLvHXF5q,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2014-12-15T16:49:57.062+0000) Because those characters became "all-damaging" with TWO big item purchases, not one. You just gave that yourself. Tanks already have that capacity; you can buy a big Armor item and a big MR item.

But aside from the tank, just having one item allows them to damage 4 members of the team, the tank can only defend vs 2.5 members...

Not to mention, the ADC or APC can still damage the tank pretty significantly. Say Mundo builds armor. Vayne can still do significant damage with a BOTRK which all APs will absolutely shred him. This makes him useless vs all APs. Vayne at that point is not useless, she can murder the other 4 members plus still do dmg to Mundo.

Dr Clueless PhD2 votes

If we're going to start taking Champion abilities (Vayne's Silver Bolts) into account, this whole thing blows wide open. I'm going to request that we keep this to a discussion on itemization, please.

Yes, a Marksman can buy one item and do sizable damage to everyone who doesn't counterbuild them. Two makes them "all-damaging", but one goes a long way. In contrast, defensive itemization means you only get resists against one of the two damage types coming your way. However, you do also get Health from the final items, which serves to help against both damage types. Your Armor may not help against that Karthus, but the load of Health that came with it certainly will, and it will be boosted in effectiveness if/when you do buy MR (which will also come with Health, which is further boosted blahblahblah).

This is why the big defensive items all have health attached, in addition to their big resist (with the exception of Thornmail). If you rush it, yes, you're sacrificing defense in one area, but you're compensated in part.

This evens it out, to a degree. With one item, you're substantially resistant to one damage class, and at least somewhat resistant to the other.

Lord Dusteon2 votes

{quoted} Ummm. Isn't a mage "cushioned" by buying AP items and void staff? She can kill anything this way. How about Vayne with BOTRK and last whisperer? There is NO defense. So if they can be all damaging I don't see why tanks can't be "all-defending"

Because Vayne in return for having high damage (on a class that builds full damage) is that she has pitiful range and requires focusing one target (unlike normal adcs who can easily switch targets without losing damage). Your defense there would be any form of armor + hp (guess what, BotRK does physical damage and last whisper is 35% armor pen, not 100%), with AS slows (such as randuin's or frozen heart) to lower her procs of silver bolts.

For defence, if you have one item that provides all tank stats either it's a first buy on every tank, every game (well, I could get randuins or I could get randuins + 50 MR in the same slot...), and then the item is just stacked so a tank's best build is almost always boots + 5 of these (or skip boots and get another one of these), or the item is never built because other items are better (I could get randuins, or I could get a weaker, more expensive randuins with 40 MR instead of a specter's cowl),

Onerios9 votes

That's actually the biggest flaw with offensive itemisation at the moment, that the supposed tank breaking items are also optimal or close to optimal against softer targets. Riot mentions that they see this as a problem and want to fix it, but its not as warping as other issues so ends up getting pushed back frequently.

Dr Clueless PhD3 votes

Also, here's a real answer:

Offensive items are, generally speaking, purchased radically. You're not buying them in response to anyone or anything. You WANT that Infinity Edge because of what it'll do to the enemy team or how it synergizes with your Champion.

Defensive items are reactionary purchases. You're buying them in response to the enemy team. That means you don't have an item you always want to rush. You have to account for who's dealing damage, and what type of damage it is. If there's ever a time where you can say "My first defensive item on this tank is X, regardless of the enemy team comp", then that is BROKEN.

Defensive items have to be reactionary, not radical, and that's why you don't get to rush your first item the same way like ADC's and Mages.

Edit: If my use of radical here irks you, I apologize.

Slaaneshine1 votes

{quoted}

"Anyway, there's a very good reason there's not a universal tank item, because every tank would build it every game."

Every tank already buys: Randuins, Sunfire, and Banshees.

This stems for those being the only real good tank items to soak up damage. They give the most stats for their cost. Tank itemization is now the lackluster edge compared to damage dealers, who end up just building the same items as well. There's one side that has too much, and one side that has too little to deal with the other side, as items like item 3056 are fantastic for utility but do little to help you survive in this meta.

jpguy9022 votes

Bring back Force of Nature

Desmond Law2 votes

Or maybe make all "% max/current hp" damage be "% bonus hp" damage instead. This is so squishies that are building dmg aren't hit too hard and tanks will only worry about building too much hp.

Quepha1 votes

or just build hp.

AMYS GRAVE3 votes

hp alone isn't enough, i started as malphite with a giants belt in aram and i can tell you that you get bursted by talon alone in under two seconds. my team couldn't even react quickly enough to do anything. assassins in this game just burst hp tanks the same as squishies.

Saianna1 votes

I'd prefer it being active tho passives can be fooled ;/ (like with banshee: u use weaker ability to hit with main thing)

FarRockBF1 votes

{quoted} I'd prefer it being active tho passives can be fooled ;/ (like with banshee: u use weaker ability to hit with main thing)

Nah, that would be OP I think.

4nth0l0gy1 votes

We'll call it "Force of Nature"

Nuclear Corvid1 votes

While it would be nice for tanks to be little more than an initiating paperweight thrown at the enemy team, Riot probably won't make an item of this nature, seeing as they removed the armor from Aegis for exactly the reason of "Hey, it gave all three defense stats!"

junglerboy161 votes

The thing is, in that situation where there is a very balanced mix of damage, just build health until you see who the number one priority is. If rengar ended up getting ahead faster than the other two, then build randuins. If the Vlad gets ahead, build SV. If it is the max that is ahead, build a warmog's and then get whichever defensive item for the next most powerful damage threat.

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

{quoted} The thing is, in that situation where there is a very balanced mix of damage, just build health until you see who the number one priority is. If rengar ended up getting ahead faster than the other two, then build randuins. If the Vlad gets ahead, build SV. If it is the max that is ahead, build a warmog's and then get whichever defensive item for the next most powerful damage threat.

The issue here is that even when it comes to health, you're already choosing whether you're getting armor or mr since giants belt doesn't build into mr items and ruby crystal doesn't build into armor items.

junglerboy161 votes

See, I think you just nailed down the REAL problem behind defensive stats. HP SHOULD be the least reactive buy you can make on a champion (since it is moderately strong against all damage types), but since you basically decide on a small subset of items with either Giants belt or Ruby crystal, it flips it on its head. They should make at least one or two each of Armor and MR items that build out of the other health item.

Ale non è male1 votes

{quoted}

The issue here is that even when it comes to health, you're already choosing whether you're getting armor or mr since giants belt doesn't build into mr items and ruby crystal doesn't build into armor items.

Wrong statement item 1028 -> item 3067 -> item 3056

Either way, give a further option for armor when starting Ruby Cristal (Locket reworked as armor item?) wouldn't be bad

P.S. The fact that giants belt doesn't build in MR item isn't a big problem, since you can go with Ruby Crystal which is cheaper to build MR items

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hLvHXF5q,comment-id=000b00000001,timestamp=2014-12-16T14:01:21.945+0000)

Wrong statement item 1028 -> item 3067 -> item 3056

Either way, give a further option for armor when starting Ruby Cristal (Locket reworked as armor item?) wouldn't be bad

P.S. The fact that giants belt doesn't build in MR item isn't a big problem, since you can go with Ruby Crystal which is cheaper to build MR items

The point is that you can't get an hp item because you don't know whether to get armor or mr yet because the hp items build into specific armor and mr items aside from the redone ohmwrecker, which is a very niche item anyway.

Ale non è male1 votes

I understand the point...that's why I think there could/should be a further option to build an armor item through Ruby( my suggestion is for a Locket reworked as armor item, but eventually Sunfire could be a candidate too)

P.S: i don't think why new Ohmwrecker is considered still very niche. Until the new ZZ'Rot portal comes out, it is the only item which give the combo of armor + health regen (+ health), the base armor isn't low, even if the passives are a bit situational is an item that can be easily considered and not relegated to a "very niche" role

WooBeeWoo1 votes

I agree there needs to be more hybrid tank items.

FantasySniper1 votes

Trifecta of tankiness... No.

Either the item is a staple, or it's too inefficient to be useful later on in the game, only making the potential gold issues of a tank even more pronounced. You tried so hard to offset its usefulness, it costs just as much as an IE.

Remember old Locket of Salami? Yeah, that was changed for the very reason it was an extremely efficient defensive item for everyone who didn't want a GA.

What I recommend you do is build health. Focus on making your health resources more efficient with things like Spirit Visage, Randuin's Omen, or Warmog's. You'll get survivability against any damage type and can still build resistances against both/either later on for maximum efficiency against their largest threat.

Hayaishi1 votes

And then what happens when Irelia and her friends start abusing this item, diving carries without being able to die?

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