Why The Balancing Team Suddenly Sucks:

FarRockBF·Mar 19, 2015·151 votes·9,288 views

They don't. They have improved a TON.

Here is the reason you all (especially those of you around since S1/S2) think balance has gotten worse:

When you first play a game you play for fun. Usually for the first year or two you are still "getting good" and learning characters.
By year 3 you start becoming emotionally invested. You believe you are actually very good (maybe you are) and as such where you reside on the ranked ladder means A LOT to you. After all you love the game and have invested years into it.
Because of this balance actually matters to you!

Now here is the point: Perfect balance CANNOT exist. It's impossible for a variety of reasons (which I won't get into here). Now, look back at season 1-2 - good lord some champs were broken as fuck! Even as late a S3 there were some champions who were horribly broken. But so many players were just starting league at those times that they simple found the game FUN.

I challenge you all to start playing normal games and quit ranked. Watch how the game suddenly goes from "broken" to "fun".

PEACE BROs

170 Comments

Sugar MommaMar 19, 201555 votes

Honestly, good for you for sticking up the balance team. Although they aren't perfect, I don't know another game where the owner of the game makes as many constant updates and cares about the balance of the game as league.

ChargeItDownMidMar 19, 201516 votes

[deleted]

TomA3XMar 19, 20155 votes

Dota has such a good balance team because that's all they do, they don't have any designers or anybody else. Dota looks like a couple of Tin cans bouncing around a field...

ChargeItDownMidMar 19, 20156 votes

[deleted]

Rew711Mar 19, 20152 votes

Although I get sad when my favorite characters get nerfed, I notice where it comes from. But, when I see a champion get a buff, it makes me happy, because they seem to need it. While Riot tries to find a way to nerf Lee Sin without killing him and buff Iriella without breaking her, I will wait and play champions that do need skill now. The ones without skillshots... Now, I can be wrong but it takes some skill to know get close and land a ability without a brigade of moves being shot onto me. One example was me playing Fiddle for the first time against a Vel'Koz main where I had the hardest time landing anything but my E on him, while he shot out continuous E's, W's, and Q's like no tomarrow. I had the hardest time dodging and his push was strong. Lucky my team had my back and did very well or we might had lost that match.

JunkοMar 19, 20157 votes

But, when I see a champion get a buff, it makes me happy, because they seem to need it.

Yep Nidalee totally needed that buff that made her clear a jungle without taking any damage despite not being a jungler to begin with, while we have 20+ unviable junglers.

AriafluxMar 19, 20158 votes

???

http://www.lolking.net/champions/

http://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/played?date=week

Given LoL has 124 champions and Dota has 110 heroes, the difference doesn't seem too big.

Edit: Check out this comparison http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/9l10jU5B-dota-vs-lol-pickwin-rates-comparison

JunkοMar 19, 201520 votes

A Dota patch usually has buffs/nerfs/tweaks to every single hero in the game. Riot touches 10 either nerfing them into oblivion or love tapping their waifus like Lissandra or Nidalee.

AriafluxMar 19, 201511 votes

Looking at results it doesn't seem too different though.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/9l10jU5B-dota-vs-lol-pickwin-rates-comparison

KairyaMar 19, 20154 votes

quantity is not equal to quality though...

ThryaleMar 19, 20157 votes

but quantity shakes things up, and lets players try new things with renewed vigor.

D357R0Y3RJan 7, 20164 votes

{quoted}

???

http://www.lolking.net/champions/

vs

http://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/played?date=week

Given LoL has 124 champions and Dota has 110 heroes, the difference doesn't seem too big.

Edit: Check out this comparison http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/9l10jU5B-dota-vs-lol-pickwin-rates-comparison

yea lol, earth spirit had 30% win rate in 2014 still was the most op hero in the game

win rate

doesn't mean

shit

KONO RUBICK DAJan 7, 20163 votes

{quoted}

???

http://www.lolking.net/champions/

vs

http://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/played?date=week

Given LoL has 124 champions and Dota has 110 heroes, the difference doesn't seem too big.

Edit: Check out this comparison http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/9l10jU5B-dota-vs-lol-pickwin-rates-comparison

ok guys, let's buff zet should we?, i mean he has 39% win rate, not like he is the most broken hero atm.

i hate talking about dota 2/league on the league forum because board is so damn biased, as much as i'm a league player this is not a valid argument, if you play the game you know that champs with high win rate sucks (omniknight) champs with low win rate like zet are so damn broken.

AhristocatsJan 7, 20163 votes

{quoted}

???

http://www.lolking.net/champions/

vs

http://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/played?date=week

Given LoL has 124 champions and Dota has 110 heroes, the difference doesn't seem too big.

Edit: Check out this comparison http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/9l10jU5B-dota-vs-lol-pickwin-rates-comparison

still patches faster than riot, with 100% of the heroes changed

I Main SwainMar 19, 20152 votes

you know what dota's motto is? "the only way to balance is to make everyone op as frikin crap"

ChargeItDownMidMar 20, 20154 votes

[deleted]

I Main SwainMar 20, 20152 votes

so the numerous friends of mine, none of which have been playing for less than 3 years, all have no clue how to play dota? I too tried it out briefly (i'll admit, it was VERY brief) and found that while they aren't all insanely op, the are op nonetheless.

AnidanMar 20, 20158 votes

I don't think you have any idea of what "OP" means, then. Just sayin'. Of the mobas, DotA2 is my personal favorite and I'd be hard pressed to call any of the heroes OP. Strong? Yes. But that is very different from saying many heroes are OP. Saying that many heroes or champions are OP simply shows you don't know what the dick you're talking about and that you should stop, because many people cannot be OP at once - it literally defeats the purpose of the phrase.

mi ramfanMar 19, 201536 votes

80% of the balance team's decisions each patch are fairly good or acceptable to most players and are perfectly reasonable.

Then there's the 20% that aren't. Those are the decisions we're complaining about all the time.

So while Riot's balance team is correct much more often than they are given credit for on the forums...it just makes the times when they are horribly, horribly wrong (initial Veigar rework release, S3's League of BotRK/Warmogs/Cleavers) that much more jarring.

JevelFaithfulMar 19, 20158 votes

This. TO be fair, the team as a whole is not bad. They have 2 problems :

The way they want the game to go. That a vocal minority on the forum disagree strongly, and i'm pretty sure a lot of people (like me) disagree politely.
They look pretty free to balance as they see fit. Or at least they don't seem to have gauges of what is acceptable power. This creates a situation where some champions appear to be over/under-nerfed/buffed while others are balanced very slowly and carefully.

The two points might overlap if they think a champion is close to balance when we/I/someone think greater changes must occur. Yes I'm talking about Lee/Zed/Nidalee/Whoever-will-be-next here.

Remlap1223Mar 19, 201527 votes

There's a difference between perfect imbalance and blatant favoritism for #LC$PIGBLAY$. Do you know how long people have been saying they're tired of seeing Lee Sin consitently picked in LCS and needs a rework? Since he was released for realzies. Do you know how many times Lee Sin's nerfs have directly addressed his gameplay issues? Zero.

To further illustrate the fact that I'm not your typical Lee Sin whiner, I'm going to use that same argument for Olaf. Do you know how many times Olaf's nerfs have addressed his gameplay issues? Zero. Except instead of superficial nerfs like Lee Sin and Zed have been getting, Olaf got, well, Olaf'd. All of his nerfs have addressed a grand total of zero of his gameplay issues, and served only to completely remove the champion from viability. The really sad thhing about Olaf is that he was already "reworked" when he got Olaf'd, so you can't just use the Yorick or Urgot excuse of "he's just in purgatory until he gets his kit reworked."

TR;DL, Perfect imbalance is just a way for people to defend Riot's blatant mistakes when it comes to how bad they're balancing the game currently. I'd like to remind people for every patch 4.12 and 5.5, there's every patch in between.

Oh The HumanateeMar 19, 20157 votes

Do you remember the instant (instant) explosion of raw rage when the suggested Lee Sin rework was leaked?

Remlap1223Mar 19, 201517 votes

Ah yes, the mewling of the "Lee Sin Mains" could be heard from China. Isn't it interesting that only the "Lee Sin Mains" get a free nerf bat immunity if they whine enough, meanwhile Cassiopeia mains literally instantly infested the boards with thread after thread about how Stashu completely destroyed the champion. Yet the rework didn't get reverted. Same treatment for Sona mains. So you can't just chalk that up to just "raw rage" on the forums because that has happened for every champion rework whose names aren't Nidalee and Maokai (because they actually didn't kneecap them when they reworked them.)

Oh The HumanateeMar 20, 20155 votes

First off, mewling. Vocab points for you. :3

Anyhow, my point wasn't so much the 'Lee Sin Shield', but the fact that these boards exploded when they suggested making him rely more heavily on his AA's to get his damage out. Everyone settled down a bit after they pulled that plug.

Lee remained problematic. Protatomonster continued to feature at least one Lee Sin Ward-W -> Q -> -R -> Q in their weekly top five plays. Consensus built that Lee needed work.

At this point, would you listen to these boards?

I mean, Lee's design seems alright-ish to me, but I wouldn't mind being able to take Cho back in the jungle without getting a foot to the mandibles. Because god knows I won't be getting a powerglove or a dragonlance to the face anytime soon.

Remlap1223Mar 20, 20154 votes

Honestly, it's not the kit that's the problem, it's the numbers. Lee's kit in of itself isn't unbalanceable, unlike some champions (cough Kalista cough). Lee just has a whole lot of shit in his kit that is just supplemental to be supplemental. This is really all you have to do to keep Lee's current kit and have him balanced:

All of his abilities cost 80 energy, and the secondary ability costs 0.
His resonating strike damage loses the % health execute and instead is shifted to increasing flat damage the lower the target's health is (a la )
The cooldown for jumping to wards is increased to 21, for minions it's 14, and for champions (and self casts) it's 7. He loses the shield on himself, and the shield strength is doubled to compensate (minions will get the bonus too).
He loses the % lifesteal and spell vamp on Iron Will and instead gets flat armor and magic resistance.
Tempest deals physical damage and loses the true sight.
Cripple is changed to Extrasensory, losing the slow, and instead granting armor penetration and true sight.
Dragon's Rage damage is halved (flat damage and scaling).

And there ya go. Lee Sin gets his signature #LC$PIGBLAY$ kit, and he doesn't cheese with unecessary bullshit like a Garen ultimate on his Q, free lifesteal, and magic damage with AD scaling.

Death by KaynMar 19, 201510 votes

This. So much this. Thanks for saying what I can't muster the energy to tell a very angry community.

Battleforge4LifeMar 19, 20156 votes

Nailed it. Don't forget that YouTube video on why perfect balance can never exist.

But this video was pretty good too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HW4lFd3jvM

KingsgraveMar 19, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Nailed it. Don't forget that YouTube video on why perfect balance can never exist.

But this video was pretty good too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HW4lFd3jvM

Balancing only for higher level play is what Icefrog does for Dota and because of that pubs are even more of a joke than normals are in this game.

My only issue with Riot is how little risks they take. They only change like 2-3 things for a character at once instead of being more assertive and risky with their changes. They have this annoying "wait and see" mentality with everything. Veigar would have been better if they just did all the changes he needed, that they are going to end up doing, right away instead of doing like 1-2 at a time.

Sightless66Mar 19, 20154 votes

Balancing only for higher level play is what Icefrog does for Dota

Not really. He kicked Spirit Breaker and Warlock in the teeth a while ago despite both having minimal or no competitive play. Bloodseeker got reworked for a similar reason. Ranked pubs are actually pretty good since the alternating pick system got implemented, so one guy can't just wait for everyone else to lock in and then take an uncountered Meepo. All Pick is a shithole, but then again, so is blind pick in League. It's what they should be.

They only change like 2-3 things for a character at once instead of being more assertive and risky with their changes.

I'd argue they actually do lots of things for a character at once, but only for nerfs. They are way, way too willing to nerf multiple things about a champion, but they are very hesitant with buffs. The nerf-focused balance is what needs to change.

KarlyrMar 19, 20155 votes

Careful, I'm an S1/S2 player and I think they did a really good job this patch.

hashinshinMar 19, 20155 votes

Actually this is some bullshit. We've had more broken tier champions in the few months of season 5 than season 1+2+3+4 combined. Season 1 had Garen, Season 2 had Ezreal, Season 3 had nothing, Season 4 had ... maybe Alistar? Season 5 has had Azir, Lissandra, Sejuani, Kalista, Nidalee, Ahri. People defending this forget just how big broken tier champions are supposed to be. This isn't beta anymore, we can't explain away broken concepts because it's beta.

And EVERY SEASON has accumulated more and more champions that the team will never buff until rework. It used to be poppy was the only champion who the team would never buff until rework. Now it's:

Aatrox, Akali, Alistar, Amumu, Anivia, Ashe, Brand, Cho'gath, Darius, Dr. Mundo, Evelynn, Fiora, Gangplank, Garen, Heimerdinger, Jax, Jayce, Karma, Kassadin, Kha'zix, Miss Fortune, Lux, Malphite, Mordekaiser, Nasus, Olaf, Pantheon, Poppy, Quinn, Rammus, Renekton, Shaco, Shen, Swain, Trundle, Teemo, Udyr, Tryndamere, Veigar, Volibear, Warwick, Wukong, Xin Zhao, Yorick, Zac, Skarner.

These are all champions that are not competitively viable who Riot will not let be competitively viable. Oh sure, they might throw them a bone here and there but they'll NEVER give them the buffs they need until they rework them. Isn't that long LONG fucking list? At an average of 2 usable reworks a year that leaves 2025 until we might have these champions playable. What's worse is many of these champions DID get their "rework" it just sucked so hard they still refuse to buff them until they get another new rework.

BastionKrossMar 19, 20155 votes

Personally, sometimes I'm not satisfied with the speed of balance changes. This new jungle came about in the preseason and it wasn't long before we saw that tanky junglers were struggling in it. It took Riot until just this last patch to finally help them out in meaningful ways. It's nice that they're getting help, but I would have expected this around patch 5.2 at the latest, not 5.5.

The champion rework list grows ever longer. Yeah, you crossed Sion off the list and that's great, but he wasn't the only champ on that list. Yorick has been waiting years. Olaf needs a lot of help. Eve is either extremely strong or weak, nowhere in between. The list goes on. Poppy is said to be the next big one in line, and they've been working on her for a couple months now. I understand it's a lot of work and resources from several different departments all working together, but you have to churn out updates quicker than this. Otherwise you get champions that spend entire seasons just... waiting for help. That should be unacceptable.

Other times it feels like Riot ignores our feedback. Veigar and his compensations should never have made it out of the PBE. Cassiopeia fans are still not happy. Garen used to punch people in the face and have fluid AA animations. Kalista is the biggest slap in the face of people who play immobile champions. Elise got squashed like a bug. Talon mains still have problems with his kit. And so on.

SeductiveGrandpaMar 20, 20152 votes

Personally, I actually like that Veigar's q is now a skill shot, I never really liked point and click stuns as they felt way too simple for me.. And I can agree that the garen punch needs to come back.

BastionKrossMar 20, 20152 votes

I think the Q change was pretty fair too, but that E change was a straight up nerf that made it significantly more difficult to deal with assassins in the mid lane.

But even that probably isn't the thing most fans are mad about. I think the majority of the players are angry that this huge nerf came under the guise of "compensation buffs". I don't think it counts as compensation buffs if the champion was stronger/more effective before you applied them.

AreMar 20, 20155 votes

This is a factor, but are we also forgetting that Riot's way of handling things is usually just nerfing the "OP" champions without giving compensation or creating ways to give counter play (if the champion is considered troublesome)?

Akali Elise Evelynn Kassadin Twitch Syndra Azir Khazix

Perfect balance does not exist, but I don't believe any other seasons had more than two champions whose win rates were below 40% at some given time (excluding newly released champions)

Another reason why balance has been so iffy lately is because of all of the champions being released with REALLY, REALLY strong kits, but this isn't the balance team's work (correct me if I'm wrong), so I'll leave it at that. Thresh Kalista

ZirzonMar 19, 20153 votes

Agreed. Often people think things used to be more balanced because they were more ignorant to champions power levels in the past. They didn't know enough about the game to notice old imbalances.

I feel like people also tend to forget things that used to be around. For example, anyone remember AP MasterYi ? They wouldn't allow something like that exist any more.

iainB85Mar 19, 20153 votes

They've made some good changes, my main issue is their development speed feels abysmal sometimes. The patches are multiple weeks apart, and often only contain minor tweaks/changes and ignoring glaring issues in the game (like how far into S5 are we before tank junglers actually got an item that made them viable?!).

ShinirupMar 19, 20153 votes

{quoted}

They don't. They have improved a TON.

Here is the reason you all (especially those of you around since S1/S2) think balance has gotten worse:

When you first play a game you play for fun. Usually for the first year or two you are still "getting good" and learning characters.

By year 3 you start becoming emotionally invested. You believe you are actually very good (maybe you are) and as such where you reside on the ranked ladder means A LOT to you. After all you love the game and have invested years into it.

Because of this balance actually matters to you!

Now here is the point: Perfect balance CANNOT exist. It's impossible for a variety of reasons (which I won't get into here). Now, look back at season 1-2 - good lord some champs were broken as fuck! Even as late a S3 there were some champions who were horribly broken. But so many players were just starting league at those times that they simple found the game FUN.

I challenge you all to start playing normal games and quit ranked. Watch how the game suddenly goes from "broken" to "fun".

PEACE BROs

I've been playing since S1, and only play normals besides the 10 matches a season for rewards. Yet I still think balancing is ruining shit because even if one does play normals, due to the success of LCS Riot balances and focuses on/ around LCS thus sucking the fun out of normals to put into ranked.

zane yalgirMar 19, 20152 votes

its not the champions or balance team its the shit player base. there are people like me who hate this game strictly becuase i want to win truly hate to lose and ranked should be for people like that. well its isnt and so im still bronze last night six wins and then bam two shit teams when you play as much as i do you know win the loses is gonna happen and im not about to try for that lost cause 3v5

FarRockBFMar 19, 201519 votes

[{quoted}](name=zane yalgir,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nrvm2zWy,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-03-19T17:04:28.517+0000)

its not the champions or balance team its the shit player base. there are people like me who hate this game strictly becuase i want to win truly hate to lose and ranked should be for people like that. well its isnt and so im still bronze last night six wins and then bam two shit teams when you play as much as i do you know win the loses is gonna happen and im not about to try for that lost cause 3v5

What on earth does this have to do with this thread? I said nothing about people hating the game...

Tis a nice dayMar 19, 201510 votes

So in other words you hate this game because you are bad at it?

zane yalgirMar 19, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tis a nice day,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nrvm2zWy,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2015-03-19T18:49:58.052+0000)

So in other words you hate this game because you are bad at it?

no i hate the shit teams i cant carry jsut had a bot lane refuse to group i had 4 of the 6 turrets and was twice as active in team fights as our adc who calimed to be an adc main. its jarring that im getting blamed for the lose with a bot that fed and refused to group while im the only one pushing and trying so hard to win and no if your the adc sitting in the back outside of the fight your not helping and your a dead weight on the team add in the 0/11/7 leo and its obvious why we lost

aka a team with a shit attude