Vote me down - I agree with Phreak

FarRockBF·Jan 29, 2015·98 votes·6,424 views

I know Lee Sin sounds mega-overpowered but since the "nerf Lee Sin" threads started flooding the forums months ago I have been watching his pick, win, and ban rates. I'll tell you straight off the bat Lee Sin has had a pretty awful win rate for the entire period. We are talking months in a row of sub 50% win rate across all ranks.

If you are going to argue "well nubs just don't know how to play him" then check this out: Individually in Platinum, Diamond, Masters, AND Challenger Lee Sin is a high pick rate and **SUB 50% win rate **this past month. Pretty impressive no?

There is really only one way to summarize him based on these numbers:

He is fun to play
He FEELS strong
He is actually not OP at all

158 Comments

VeraskaJan 29, 201534 votes

something to keep in mind, i don't think the pros -you know the guys who are paid to win so they always pick the stuff that is absolutely strongest or the most reliable, pick him ALL the time, even if his winrates in soloQ are low, his flexibility and all around "jack of all trades with no true weakness" really does crowd out a lot of other jungle options in competitive (you could make the same argument for J4)

not saying you're right or wrong, thats just why i wanna lee sin get changed personally, i'd like to see the pros play more then 3 junglers this split

SionideCNJan 29, 20155 votes

{quoted}

something to keep in mind, i don't think the pros -you know the guys who are paid to win so they always pick the stuff that is absolutely strongest or the most reliable, pick him ALL the time, even if his winrates in soloQ are low, his flexibility and all around "jack of all trades with no true weakness" really does crowd out a lot of other jungle options in competitive (you could make the same argument for J4)

not saying you're right or wrong, thats just why i wanna lee sin get changed personally, i'd like to see the pros play more then 3 junglers this split

The LCS jungle players make their picks for other reasons than people in solo Q quite often, cho'gath and yi can be great soloq junglers but less so in LCS games; People pick Lee because he has a very strong early game and is great at ganking, plus he has the ability to make really good picks late game (people picked elise for the same reasons before her nerfs, she also had great late game damage with just a bit of ap)

People pick Jarvan because Jarvan is uncontrollably the best competitive jungle pick in the game; he's got early damage contested by very few champions, and the ability to disrupt teamfights and do heavy damage while staying tanky.

Conversely, he's good in solo Q because you can build a hydra on him an 100-0 adcs, then go tank and still do that.

NarasimhaJan 29, 20155 votes

Just to jump in real quick, even if you gut Lee Sin to the core, that won't change the pro mentality. They will just pick another jungler to replace him and continue using those 3 or 4. That just how it is, they will always use the strongest.

Hinro HonatoJan 29, 201525 votes

win rates mean nothing. Unless it's all for one there are far to many other factors that determine if a game is won or not.

From what I've seen people tend to complain about his insane mobility. Which is quite honestly just plain broken. Once he gets a SS good luck catching him. Even before then he is incredibly mobile.

My personal complaint is that his kit simply has to much damn damage early. He might as well be super glue made of acid. You aren't going to lose him and he's going to melt you. It's incredibly hard to lose him early and even more so late game.

I don't terribly mind him but if someone is to say that he isn't overtuned they simply don't grasp all that he can do.

FarRockBFJan 29, 201511 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hinro Honato,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G71fIm0z,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-01-29T14:00:05.763+0000)

win rates mean nothing. Unless it's all for one there are far to many other factors that determine if a game is won or not.

From what I've seen people tend to complain about his insane mobility. Which is quite honestly just plain broken. Once he gets a SS good luck catching him. Even before then he is incredibly mobile.

Your first statement is contradictory. You say it means NOTHING and then say there are OTHER factors. So it is a factor and means something. Anyhow, you are 100% WRONG. Win rate means everything if it is consistent over millions of games over many months across all rankings. Since one player has roughly a 10% stake in each game; over a million games means a whole lot of 10%...

From your second statement: Insane mobility is fine if the champ is otherwise weak (which he IS). Look at Mundo: INSANE healing, yet he is weak. Look at Orianna. Unreal utility, yet she is not OP. As long as your outstanding stats are countered by your other stats there is no problem with having "the best mobility in the game". Someone has to have it by definition.

Hinro HonatoJan 29, 201516 votes

Fair enough on the first point. However win rate=champion strength is simply silly. correlation is not causation.

Yes him being insanely mobile would be fine, if he was weak. But he simply isn't a weak champion. He's incredibly strong at all points throughout a game. Early game he can 100-0 most champions due to his high damage and double skills. Mid game he still has quite a bit of damage and now he can kick out any champion and get away completely unharmed. Late game depending on how he was building he can either nuke the back line with ease if he kept building damage or like in the mid game kick out focus targets and still do high damage while tanking everything.

He really has no weak point in the game. Yes he does take some practice to use him well however that can go for any champion honestly.

SionideCNJan 29, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hinro Honato,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G71fIm0z,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-01-29T14:29:54.698+0000)

Fair enough on the first point. However win rate=champion strength is simply silly. correlation is not causation.

Yes him being insanely mobile would be fine, if he was weak. But he simply isn't a weak champion. He's incredibly strong at all points throughout a game. Early game he can 100-0 most champions due to his high damage and double skills. Mid game he still has quite a bit of damage and now he can kick out any champion and get away completely unharmed. Late game depending on how he was building he can either nuke the back line with ease if he kept building damage or like in the mid game kick out focus targets and still do high damage while tanking everything.

He really has no weak point in the game. Yes he does take some practice to use him well however that can go for any champion honestly.

Except he doesn't have reliable tools to get to the backline as damage lee without getting ccd and instanuked, unless that person is out of position. And if you're jumping on someone out of position you're better off playing tank lee because he doesn't die instantly.

Hinro HonatoJan 29, 20158 votes

Except you know his jumps do allow him to get into the back line.

FarRockBFJan 29, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hinro Honato,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G71fIm0z,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-01-29T14:29:54.698+0000)

He really has no weak point in the game. Yes he does take some practice to use him well however that can go for any champion honestly.

I'm a math guy (bachelors, masters, and my job). So let's talk numbers.

Please explain how a champion over millions of games can have a steady 47% win rate and "have no real weak point in the game".

Hinro HonatoJan 29, 201510 votes

As I've said already correlation is not causation. Him having a below 50% win rate does not equal him being a weak champion.

TrylobyteJan 29, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hinro Honato,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G71fIm0z,comment-id=00010000000000010001,timestamp=2015-01-29T15:34:26.196+0000)

As I've said already correlation is not causation. Him having a below 50% win rate does not equal him being a weak champion.

It makes him a weak champion in the environment being measured because it means that, across all the games he's in, the team with a Lee Sin has lost more than it has won. Now, how can you interpret this? I see a few ways.

Lee Sin is a strong champion played by people who suck, despite those people being Diamond, Master, or Challenger.
Lee Sin is a strong champion played by strong players whose teammates happen to suck more than usual.
Lee Sin is a strong champion played by good players who doesn't fit well into most team comps, causing the team as a whole to lose.
Lee Sin is a weak champion despite all the hype and is popular for different reasons.

I would be more inclined to pick #4. He isn't that great of a champion. So why do we see so much of him? Because he's fun to play, hard to counter, and fits well into virtually any team comp. But across all game modes, at high levels of play, Lee loses more games than he wins. That might be correlation if we weren't talking about millions of games, but we are. With a sample that large, there has to be a causative element as well. And if you disagree, then explain the numbers to me.

Remember, the professional players represent the tiniest, tiniest minority of the League playerbase. While some nerfs are made to shake up the competitive scene (Hi LeBlanc) do we really think nerfing Lee won't just get him replaced by someone else that we'll proceed to see every game?

Balderdash1000Jan 29, 20155 votes

Interesting points, but let's look at point one in a slightly different angle. Instead of saying the people that play lee sin suck, let's say that there's a lot of people that don't play him regularly that use him. Then let's go with the crazy concept of a learning curve. Maybe the issue isn't that they suck, but that people that don't play him regularly are unable to use him nearly as well as people that do. Further, let's try an idea that Lee Sin has a bigger then normal gap between those that know exactly how to use him, and those that don't. I would honestly love to see his win rate among Lee Sin mains, but as far as I know we have no way to get that info.

I'm just throwing this out there, but the reason that some people might say he's OP as fuck while others say he's weak might just possibly be because there's a big difference between the people that have mastered him and those that haven't.

TrylobyteJan 29, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Interesting points, but let's look at point one in a slightly different angle. Instead of saying the people that play lee sin suck, let's say that there's a lot of people that don't play him regularly that use him. Then let's go with the crazy concept of a learning curve. Maybe the issue isn't that they suck, but that people that don't play him regularly are unable to use him nearly as well as people that do. Further, let's try an idea that Lee Sin has a bigger then normal gap between those that know exactly how to use him, and those that don't. I would honestly love to see his win rate among Lee Sin mains, but as far as I know we have no way to get that info.

I'm just throwing this out there, but the reason that some people might say he's OP as fuck while others say he's weak might just possibly be because there's a big difference between the people that have mastered him and those that haven't.

That could very well be the case. My personal speculation would be that he's a lot like the old Nidalee - When she was dominating a game it was the most frustrating thing in the world because there was absolutely nothing you could do due to a high-damage high-mobility kit with escapes out the ass. You really felt it when Nidalee was in control of the game and you remembered those games for a very long time, forgetting all the mediocre ones that happened in the interim. Lee, I think, has the same sort of thing going for him - You don't really notice the bad ones, but you really notice the good ones that make you want to smash your face into your desk until you swallow your own teeth.

Penguin EclipseJan 29, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Your first statement is contradictory. You say it means NOTHING and then say there are OTHER factors. So it is a factor and means something. Anyhow, you are 100% WRONG. Win rate means everything if it is consistent over millions of games over many months across all rankings. Since one player has roughly a 10% stake in each game; over a million games means a whole lot of 10%...

From your second statement: Insane mobility is fine if the champ is otherwise weak (which he IS). Look at Mundo: INSANE healing, yet he is weak. Look at Orianna. Unreal utility, yet she is not OP. As long as your outstanding stats are countered by your other stats there is no problem with having "the best mobility in the game". Someone has to have it by definition.

If winrate meant everything then let's give LeBlanc back her silence. Her winrate has been consistently below 50% over millions of games over many months across all rankings. As an avid LeBlanc player I think she should be turned manaless and also have her damage buffed across the board to compensate for the removal of DFG. You no doubt agree right? I mean winrate is everything. She clearly needs buffs.

FarRockBFJan 29, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Penguin Eclipse,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G71fIm0z,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2015-01-29T15:41:43.384+0000)

If winrate meant everything then let's give LeBlanc back her silence. Her winrate has been consistently below 50% over millions of games over many months across all rankings. As an avid LeBlanc player I think she should be turned manaless also have her damage buffed across the board to compensate for the removal of DFG. You no doubt agree right? I mean winrate is everything.

Errr, what? I happen to agree that Leblanc needs a little love. But I hope you are joking about turning her manaless and buffing her "across the board"...one Zed is enough thank you.

Handin Out NapsJan 29, 20159 votes

So I can argue that Zed isn't op because of his winrate...

EfficientDynamoJan 29, 20156 votes

On the topic of winrates, I was looking at lolking winrates in master+ tier and the only two junglers in the top ten most popular champs were J4 and Lee. J4 has had a much higher winrate over the past month, and Lee's sits around 48%.

Since most people acknowledge that right now J4 is an amazing jungler (and maybe deserving of nerfs), doesn't that imply that a team facing a J4 jungler is more likely to lose, all other factors held equal? In other words it makes sense to a degree that Lee has a lower winrate since J4's is higher.

As a side note, this trend of J4 and Lee being consistently common junglers in the top 10 most popular picks, with J4 having higher winrates, was also true in Plat and Diamond as well.

FarRockBFJan 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

On the topic of winrates, I was looking at lolking winrates in master+ tier and the only two junglers in the top ten most popular champs were J4 and Lee. J4 has had a much higher winrate over the past month, and Lee's sits around 48%.

Vi is the highest win rate champion this month... J4 is not the king of the jungle right now, he's 2nd in command.

EfficientDynamoJan 29, 20151 votes

You are going to need to supply a link for me there. I just double checked on lolking after I saw your post, and I don't see Vi anywhere near the highest winrate, or high in comparison to J4. What search parameters are you using?

FarRockBFJan 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You are going to need to supply a link for me there. I just double checked on lolking after I saw your post, and I don't see Vi anywhere near the highest winrate, or high in comparison to J4. What search parameters are you using? What?

Go to lolking.net Go to charts Entire month Highest win-rate champ

=Vi

EfficientDynamoJan 29, 20155 votes

I see the confusion. You are looking at highest winrate in normals, I was looking at ranked. She is not on the top 10 for ranked, but she is top winrate (by .01% over J4) in normals.

VardenSaladJan 29, 20154 votes

Slow down there with those "facts" and "actually paying attention to data" there, guy. That man above you does math for his job.

Ulquiorra995Jan 29, 201524 votes

Yes, he is insanely fun to play. Problem is, if Lee is even remotely competent, he is very un-fun to play against. Because his kit is so loaded, he has all the chances to outplay you while you have very little to outplay him. With Lee, it's either fighting on his terms or not fighting at all. He wants to fight? Have fun escaping 2 gap-closers, a slow and one of highest MS in game. He doesn't want to fight? Again, 2 mobility spells and a 1200-unit knockback.

Main problem with him is that he has no real weaknesses. His kit is overall filled with utility and deals very high damage (340 + 1.8 AD + HP scaling on a basic ability and an execution grade damage on his hard-CC ult). By no means I want Lee destroyed. I want him to be more fair to play against while still being fun and rewarding to play as.

I think best changes would be: Lowering his ability damage and increasing their energy cost, while in turn buffing his passive. He now actually has to utilize his passive instead of it just being another damage ability and weave AA's in-between spells. He'd still be strong, but you'd have windows to retaliate or chase him down when his energy is low.

AudiomancyJan 29, 201521 votes

Can we stop the 'win rate = champ power' thing already? LeBlanc had a 44-47% win rate when she had her silence. Guess what she has now? 44-47% win rate.

Win rate does NOT correlate to a champion's level of power. Something can be broken without having a sky-high WR.

RikoZerameJan 29, 20152 votes

Out of curiosity, is that total, or just in higher leagues? And how did the pick rate change with the removal of her silence?

mi ramfanJan 29, 201510 votes

There are three main complaints about Lee Sin:

His early game damage is incredible and he doesn't fall off hard enough late game to pay for it. If you think Lee falls off late game, I suggest you take a look at his ratios to convince yourself otherwise.
Lee's mobility makes him feel cheap to play against because ward dashes and Qs to jungle creeps make him impossible to punish. As a result, not only does he have an incredible early, but he's very safe while being able to easily kill you. He's a low risk, high reward pick.
He is such a consistently strong jungler that he serves as a litmus test for other junglers. The reason junglers like Nautilus/Sejuani/Amumu are not viable is because if Lee Sin invades them, there is no way they can possibly fight him. His ganks and clearing are both so good that every jungler must answer the question "why play X when you could just pick Lee" just to get on the field.

All of these factors come together to ensure that Lee is almost always one of the strongest picks in League of Legends. He has been viable or top tier in every single meta game since his release. He has been consistently nerfed for being overbearing or top tier, but he's still going strong.

It's clear that no amount of nerfs are going to fix Lee Sin; we need a rework.

junglerboy16Jan 29, 20156 votes

The last point which you completely forgot is that he feels awful to play against. I don't care if he is OP or UP right now, but he is just un-fun to play against and has a super binary hard carry or bust play style. He has surprisingly similar issues to Poppy. Both are super binary, both are really fun to play and satisfying to play well (I LOVE playing Poppy), both have extreme kit balance (For Lee, he is really strong early, falls off hard late, and vice versa for Poppy who is weak early but hyper carries late). Regardless of whether he is strong right now, he makes the game feel like trash if playing against one with half a brain (however, he is at that terrible spot where he can also just as likely be completely useless). Right now, his kit is at the point where it can't get buffed or he is instantly OP again, but it is already super weak. Basically, Riot has to Olaf him until they get the balls to finally rework his kit, because he will keep flip flopping between super OP or incredibly useless, and will keep being anti-fun until they put him down.

OrdersJan 29, 20156 votes

The real problem with him is that there is no weakness to his kit.

I 1v1'd a Malphite who had 3/4 health while I had 1/4 health and I still won with Lee Sin; we were both the same level.

RetillinJan 29, 20155 votes

Well here is the thing.

There are different ideas/versions of "OP". Some say Thresh is because as a support he just has so many tools that he's NEVER a bad pick. Jax (before his nerfs) was OP because his numbers were too high for everything he brought to the table. Gnar/Rek'sai are the same thing right now (as Jax was). Janna mid was OP not because she beat anyone, but because she couldn't be beaten in lane. She just pushed the wave into tower and backed off. 0 counter-play. Zed due to instata death at some points.

What makes Lee Sin "OP" is a bit tricky. His base numbers are high (they are, his level 3 is amazing). He has twice the number of abilities than almost anyone before level 6, this means that his BURST is really high. His mobility is one of, if not the, best in the game. Yes he doesn't have a flash and needs a ward/ally or enemy to move but the cooldowns are really low and the cost are also low. His ult is the most under-rated part of his kit. I'm not talking "big plays lcs", but his ability to disengage whole team fights on a 60 second cooldown counters a LOT of champion ult engages. He doesn't have a "weakness". Rengar, a pink ward really hurts him. Jarvan, doesn't have a way out of a team fight (yes he's really strong right now but that is mostly by numbers), Elise does everything Lee does, but weaker. Amumu/Naut/Sej/tank junlgers, can't handle 1v1 jungle fighting vs him. Ect...

So really the problem is his KIT is wrong. He needs a rework to become balanced. Right now, he has so many tools that he is always one of (for 3 years now) the best jungler, or IS the best jungler. I think there was 1.2 million ranked games played by him in the last month. (only after Thresh's 1.4 mil) In Diamond ranked he was still picked more than Jarven. And J4 has a higher win rate. Are we to believe that those diamond players are really so dumb as to only pick Lee because he's fun/exciting instead of trying to win?

HawkefireJan 29, 20155 votes

{quoted}

I know Lee Sin sounds mega-overpowered but since the "nerf Lee Sin" threads started flooding the forums months ago I have been watching his pick, win, and ban rates. I'll tell you straight off the bat Lee Sin has had a pretty awful win rate for the entire period. We are talking months in a row of sub 50% win rate across all ranks.

If you are going to argue "well nubs just don't know how to play him" then check this out: Individually in Platinum, Diamond, Masters, AND Challenger Lee Sin is a high pick rate and **SUB 50% win rate **this past month. Pretty impressive no?

There is really only one way to summarize him based on these numbers:

He is fun to play

He FEELS strong

He is actually not OP at all

He is fun to play, but he isn't fun to play against. It is probably very true that many of the pros play Lee Sin because they find him fun to play, but it is also very true that Lee Sin DOES grant an advantage to the team he is on simply because his kit is truly quite overpowered. His kit has too much in it.

It has utility, mobility, damage (there is this myth that his damage falls off lategame....this actually isn't entirely true, he still does a ton of damage lategame, it just isn't quite as ridiculous as the amount of damage he does in the earlygame), Sustain, Hard CC, disengage, engage......etc.

Lee Sin can peel, tank, splitpush, assassinate, and even waveclear. There isn't a role in the game that Lee Sin cannot fulfill, and that is a huge problem.

I do truly feel that because of that, he deserves some nerfing to make him more in line with the others

Da3awssJan 29, 20154 votes

Well, I read your main point. I agree with your summaries of lee and wish I could UP you so more people would come and give constructive criticism, but i have to down vote you because you simply are rude when someone have given their own opinion. I now that it didn't happen in all replies.

The other reason I disagree with you is that you put a lot of emphasis on % win rates. I understand that these factor into the champion and their balance, but this is a team game. All we see is that he wins less than half the games he is chosen. We don't see the actual results of the games themselves. For all we know the lee sin could have had amazing scores but still lost. And Vice Versa could be said. So, if we are to take a look at the champion itself, I agree with everyone that he isn't necessarily OP. He could use some changes, whether it be nerfs or a rework or even little ability changes. He is by far one of the safer jungler picks so far in S5.

CataclysmCrashJan 29, 20153 votes

If you ever want to defend a champ with win rates you should probably understand what that information is telling you.

Lee Sin is the second most popular champ in the game across solo queue ranked. This means he occupies a massive spot in a community where the vast majority is too shitty at the game to reach Gold V.

He's in the top 5 picks from gold to masters and top 10 from bronze to silver (who seem to prefer supports and adcs).

Fuck Lee Sin, fuck Thresh. Don't use win rates to defend champions that are top picks for years because you're only defeating yourself.

TrylobyteJan 29, 20156 votes

{quoted}

If you ever want to defend a champ with win rates you should probably understand what that information is telling you.

Lee Sin is the second most popular champ in the game across solo queue ranked. This means he occupies a massive spot in a community where the vast majority is too shitty at the game to reach Gold V.

He's in the top 5 picks from gold to masters and top 10 from bronze to silver (who seem to prefer supports and adcs).

Fuck Lee Sin, fuck Thresh. Don't use win rates to defend champions that are top picks for years because you're only defeating yourself.

He's also lost more games than he's won regardless of how you filter it. In every permutation for 5v5 and solo queue he loses more than he wins. Here's his win/loss percentage per tier.

Normal: 47% Ranked Solo Total: 45.8% Bronze: 45.6% Silver: 45.8% Gold: 45.6% Platinum: 45.7% Diamond: 46.3% Master/Challenger: 47.8%

Oh, below 50% regardless of skill level. Only Master and Challenger players have a higher winrate than the unranked, unwashed hordes do. Well. That's a thing.

But we all know Lee Sin thrives most in coordinated team comps, right?

Ranked 5v5 Total: 47.8% Bronze: 47.4% Silver: 47.6% Gold: 48.2% Platinum: 48.6% Diamond: 49.3% Master/Challenger: 48.9%

Better. Still not 50%.

What do these numbers tell me? Across every game mode, every game type, every possible queue you could go in, the only queue where Lee Sin is more likely to win than lose is Twisted Treeline Normal (where he has a winrate of 50.5%). In every other queue that data is available for, including everything on Summoner's Rift, he performs below average. Furthermore, his ban rate is not high enough to suffer from the 'He's not banned for once so I'll pick him even if I can't play him' effect that champions like Kassadin and Yasuo used to suffer from. This does not scream 'Overpowered' to me. This screams 'Annoying Kit.'

AMYS GRAVEJan 29, 20156 votes

This screams 'Annoying Kit.'

that's perhaps the best reason to rework a champ.

Ramix The RedJan 30, 20153 votes

That is absolutely the best reason to rework a champ.

BlackSunNocturneJan 29, 20153 votes

{quoted}

This does not scream 'Overpowered' to me. This screams 'Annoying Kit.'

This. This is the main reason I bitch and complain about Lee Sin. He's not OP, his kit is just hell and it's irritating to play against. And because there's the maxim: "Your Lee Sin will suck and feed 15 kills before 10 minutes, their Lee Sin is a Challenger Smurf and will roflstomp your entire team before Lee Sin is supposed to fall off."

DroogzyJan 29, 20153 votes

As a Jungler, I agree, I have never had a problem with Lee Sin, outside of the fact I've always felt he has a tad bit too much mobility and the AD scaling on his ult is excessive. The AD scaling is hardly a huge priority though I would argue.

But considering his identity and the way his early game pressure works, that's fine by me, I would argue he actually needs the hyper mobility. People laugh at the notion that he falls off hard in the end, but he seriously does. By the time end game comes, his only advantage on the field of battle is his hyper mobility. I don't know a single jungler who falls off harder then Lee Sin by mid-late to late game. By the time that time of the game comes, his presence on the field is laughable at best assuming you didn't feed him (but the same goes for literally any other champion, so that's a moot point).

If he tries to build AD to take advantage of the insane ratio he has, he's going to die before he can even get to your carry, and if he builds tanky, he's not going to do all that much damage to begin with.

I would say its not that Lee Sin needs to be tone down, but Lee Sin should be the example of a good champion. He looks and feels powerful, but he's quite balanced outside of a few minor issues. The issue with Lee Sin doesn't seem to be that he's THE best Jungler in every meta, it has more to do with how when the meta changes, certain junglers are no longer viable whereas some become stronger, but Lee Sin will always be reliable, no matter what happens in the jungle.

But isn't that what we should strive for every single jungler? Lee Sin is the standard, but he's the standard by what junglers ought to be: viable regardless of what happens in the jungle. The job of Riot isn't to bring Lee Sin down, its to bring all the junglers up to his level.

But lord knows the ineptitude which Riot possesses with stuff like that.

AFK PushJan 29, 20153 votes

I think one of the blatantly obvious things to nerf are his ad scalings, the lowest being .9 ad, and the highest being 2.0 ad. With this Lee sin can just build hydra and the rest tank but then still be ahead of most offtanks due to these insanely high scaling. Not only that but for some reason he has built in sellvamp/lifesteal, which is overkill on someone that almost always build hydra and gets so much damage from it that their sustain is near Warwick or Aatrox level, making lee never leave lane or never have problems in the jungle.

Remlap1223Jan 30, 20153 votes

There is only one champion that has a win rate that accurately shows his health, and that's Urgot . Champions like LeBlanc and Lee Sin get low win rates because of how much they're played, despite having very loaded kits (thank god for DFG removal.) While champions like Sona and Ashe have huge win rates because they're in such bad spots that only their mains or fans play them, because they're at such a disadvantage compared to other options (Nami for Sona and Caitlyn and Jinx for Ashe.)

SnackieCakesJan 30, 20153 votes

He might have a higher win rate if such a large majority of the Lee Sin players knew and understood in their heart of hearts that just because you hit the Q does not mean you have to go in.

WullfJan 29, 20151 votes

People run about him being OP, but I have seen so little Lee Sin bans that it makes me think that he is not so strong.

mi ramfanJan 29, 20155 votes

For years Lee Sin has been sitting in this state where he's slightly overpowered enough to choke out half the jungle pool, but there have always been 6 champions who either were A. Incredibly stupid to deal with or B. Just flat out overpowered in any given patch.

It all adds up over time. All that frustration of seeing lanes lost because of level 2 Lee Sin ganks; all the restriction of being unable to play half the potential junglers because a Lee Sin invade would cripple us for the rest of the game; all the times Lee made a mistake that would have killed any other champion in the game, then proceeds to kick->ward jump out.

We're tired of it.

WullfJan 29, 20152 votes

The way I see it he is accidentally pretty well balanced champion. But other jungler are not. Lee sin just fits into every season.

I do acknowledge that he sits there pretty long and I would gladly see some other jungler to replace him, but that would mean to nerf champion just because he is well balanced.

Another thing is that he has high skill cap, so in right hands he is actually a bit OP, so maybe if any nerf should come it probably should focus on nerfing high skill level play.

mi ramfanJan 29, 20157 votes

I disagree, I think that Lee Sin being successful in every season's metagame is evidence that he is unbalanced, not the cause of him appearing unbalanced.

Everyone loves to say "well just buff all the other junglers, Lee Sin's fine". That takes much, much more work and is unlikely to actually produce better results; more like one of the buffs will be too much and the champion who gets it will be the new OP. It is much easier to just nerf or rework Lee Sin than it is to buff or rework every tank jungler.

I agree that Lee has a high skill cap, but his skill floor (how good you have to be to not suck as him) is fairly low. Lee Sin mains still make ungodly plays that couldn't happen with any other champion, which is why you'll notice that his win rate with experienced players of the champion is much higher than his overall win rate. However, it's still very possible for someone like me who doesn't play Lee routinely to pick him up and get good results for a few games. Is it difficult to be a Lee Sin god like Insec? Yes. Is it difficult to play Lee Sin well enough to win over 50% of your games? No.

Moe Moe KyuunJan 29, 20151 votes

Using winrates is horrible. It's because of everyone saying "Lee is OP" a lot of people will play him and lose, why? Because they don't know how to play him. This could happen with any champion. He's not OP but, he has so frikkin stuff in his kit it isn't funny. It isn't so much "Tell me what he has in his kit?" It's "What doesn't he have in his kit?" High mobility Soft cc A knockback that has a crap top of damage More mobility A slow Really good clear in jungle with sustain Even high movement speed

People say he falls off late game which is wrong. His damage may fall off but his utility doesn't. You don't know how many times I get angry when he ganks and I think I'll be safe under tower but he will be like "nope" hit me with q, ward behind me and use his ult right to the enemy and kill me and get away safely. I would be happy if they just got rid of ward jumping, or like others have said before, where he can't jump to trinket wards. That's a FREE jump.

FarRockBFJan 29, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moe Moe Kyuun,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G71fIm0z,comment-id=002a,timestamp=2015-01-29T18:52:33.718+0000)

Using winrates is horrible. It's because of everyone saying "Lee is OP" a lot of people will play him and lose, why? Because they don't know how to play him.

Using winrates at Challenger and Masters levels (45% win rate ATM) and you are going to argue they don't know how to play him???

Da3awssJan 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Using winrates at Challenger and Masters levels (45% win rate ATM) and you are going to argue they don't know how to play him???

k.

I'd Argue that its a team game and that I would need to see all those Challengers and Master's level games before i use the win rate as a champion balance indicator.

FarRockBFJan 29, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I'd Argue that its a team game and that I would need to see all those Challengers and Master's level games before i use the win rate as a champion balance indicator.

THAT IS EXACTLY THE POINT OF LAW OF LARGE NUMBERS. You don't need to see anything. Everything stabilizes at large numbers.

Da3awssJan 29, 20152 votes

{quoted}

THAT IS EXACTLY THE POINT OF LAW OF LARGE NUMBERS. You don't need to see anything. Everything stabilizes at large numbers.

You misunderstood. I understand that the larger the sample size the closer you get to the average. I stated that this is a team game, so just because the lee sin lost, does not mean the lee sin did bad. The win rate only takes into account whether it was a win or a loss. It doesn't look at the 5v5 aspect, the team comp, the enemy team comp, Kills, deaths, assists, and so on. If this was 1v1, it would be a different story.

Moe Moe KyuunJan 29, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Using winrates at Challenger and Masters levels (45% win rate ATM) and you are going to argue they don't know how to play him???

k.

Because someone is challenger doesn't mean they can play a champ they haven't played. Though I like how you just glossed over the fact of how much utility a Lee actually has. Why should a champion have that much shit on them? I even said first sentence that I don't think he is that OP, but that doesn't excuse that he should have so much in his kit.