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Just a reminder that fizz still doesn't have a passive.

HongChongDong··5 votes·1,118 views

He blocks a colossal 4/6/8/10/12/14 physical damage from basic attacks at levels 1/4/7/10/13/16. This is an assassin. This is also a "Laning Phase" oriented passive when it doesn't even gain statistical value till the time zone of when laning phase ends and by that point it blocks no meaning full amount of damage relative to how much is being dealt by the auto attacks.

Keep in mind that this is also the same passive that amumu has on his E. This is exactly what this passive is worth. An ability passive. Something cheaper to tack onto an ability, not take up an entire slot of a champions kit. Actually, amumu's passive is even better because it blocks physical damage, not just basic attack damage. Meaning that amumu also blocks the damage from abilities and gets FAR value out of it due to him being a jungler and it blocking ability damage as well.

Maybe I should just go play tank fizz so I can get more value out of the passive. That may even make him more viable than what he is in his current state anyway.

Also, remember that riot's update modern policies about champion design says that they want nothing more than to get rid of passives that are un-interactive as well as passives that just give stats with no gameplay. By everything they've stated over the passed year or so about what they don't like in champion design, this passive should've been on the top of the list to get reworked. They even gave him work time with the assassin update.

The team responsible for him should've had more than enough time to work on a newer, better passive. Instead it just felt like they got rid of the old W because they didn't like it, then changed the ult so he had some sort of Illusion of synergy in his kit then gave him a "finished" stamp.

The company itself is not to blame for balance design, It's the teams responsible. So that just makes me wish he'd been left in better hands.

22 Comments

Asayake 5150glow7 votes

Hey, it lets him ignore minion block.

That's pretty big.

HongChongDong2 votes

{quoted}

Hey, it lets him ignore minion block.

That's pretty big.

There are a total of 14 other champions as well as the summoner spell ghost and item Phantom Dancer that do the exact same thing. Him getting it permanently is not worth reductions to his capabilities.

Quepha3 votes

{quoted}

There are a total of 14 other champions as well as the summoner spell ghost and item Phantom Dancer that do the exact same thing. Him getting it permanently is not worth reductions to his capabilities.

Where does it cost him capabilities? You realize that making his passive more powerful would actually mean he'd probably need a corresponding nerf to some other part of his kit to keep his power the same?

HongChongDong1 votes

{quoted}

Where does it cost him capabilities? You realize that making his passive more powerful would actually mean he'd probably need a corresponding nerf to some other part of his kit to keep his power the same?

Why should his power stay the same? Him and the other assassins are weak.The only exceptions to this are Leblanc, Rengar, Khazix, and Katarina. So why couldn't he be stronger? But outside of that I'd gladly let his ult or W rot away depending on what the passive was.

That's also what I had in mind. A re-rework of his abilities probably wouldn't happen, a number buff could cause him to actually be broken, so a proper passive could be what he needs to put him in a decent spot.

Right now the only time he's viable is when he's in a matchup that should undoubtably be in his favor. Even then he's not guaranteed to win. And those "favorable" matchups are of course the same matchups that's be favorable to any other assassin or assassin level champion like jayce, fiora, riven, yasuo basically any mobile carry. Meaning he's not actually strong or even has a place as a champion, he just survives by having the potential to win matchups that any other champion could as well.

Quepha2 votes

{quoted}

Why should his power stay the same? Him and the other assassins are weak.The only exceptions to this are Leblanc, Rengar, Khazix, and Katarina. So why couldn't he be stronger? But outside of that I'd gladly let his ult or W rot away depending on what the passive was.

That's also what I had in mind. A re-rework of his abilities probably wouldn't happen, a number buff could cause him to actually be broken, so a proper passive could be what he needs to put him in a decent spot.

Right now the only time he's viable is when he's in a matchup that should undoubtably be in his favor. Even then he's not guaranteed to win. And those "favorable" matchups are of course the same matchups that's be favorable to any other assassin or assassin level champion like jayce, fiora, riven, yasuo basically any mobile carry. Meaning he's not actually strong or even has a place as a champion, he just survives by having the potential to win matchups that any other champion could as well.

If you want him buffed then say you want him buffed (I disagree, his power level seems fine), but a stronger passive is probably not the best way to buff him as it's just boring, blanket power.

If you want him reworked then say you want him reworked (I disagree, his kit seems healthy), but if there really are fundamental problems with Fizz then reworking just his passive would probably do nothing to solve the issue.

Don't point at a passive, something destined to be the most boring part of a kit and say "This isn't as exciting or powerful as the champion's bread and butter damage/mobility skill or their long cooldown ultimate, thus it is a problem!" because that makes zero sense.

HongChongDong1 votes

{quoted}

If you want him buffed then say you want him buffed (I disagree, his power level seems fine), but a stronger passive is probably not the best way to buff him as it's just boring, blanket power.

If you want him reworked then say you want him reworked (I disagree, his kit seems healthy), but if there really are fundamental problems with Fizz then reworking just his passive would probably do nothing to solve the issue.

Don't point at a passive, something destined to be the most boring part of a kit and say "This isn't as exciting or powerful as the champion's bread and butter damage/mobility skill or their long cooldown ultimate, thus it is a problem!" because that makes zero sense.

You logic isn't wrong and it's a good argument but you are abit off on one thing. The passive is not supposed to be the most boring part of a kit. There are plenty of passives out there that are probably the biggest part of the entire kit and are arguably what makes the champion fun to play. That was completely unrelated though.

Anyway. I'm not saying the passive is the problem. His design they spit out in the rework IS the problem. But while I'm not the oldest of players, I've been with the game for over 3 years and I can say this: Riot will not go back on major changes once they've made it. This isn't the case for ever change but when it comes to reworks, items, champions ect. Once they've made changes to the mechanics of the game they keep them and refuse to revert them. Instead they'll spend their time trying to balance numbers to keep it going without ever thinking of just scrapping it. Maybe the only exception is ryze.

Number buffs are extremely dangerous. One wrong move and Fizz turns broken, they completely pummel him with nerfs, and he ends up in a worst spot than he already is.

A re-rework is out of the question. They'd never do it. It's a mixture between them not wanting to do it and also that they'd likely not have a team to work on it.

So the only thing left is something that'd be less time consuming than a rework and would be more likely to happen which is a new passive. They add in mini reworks all the time so it'd definitely be possible. If the passive turns into a problem then simple number buffs on the passive itself would suffice as it'd likely be less dangerous than number buffs on his main abilities.

Quepha2 votes

{quoted}

I can say this: Riot will not go back on major changes once they've made it. This isn't the case for ever change but when it comes to reworks, items, champions ect. Once they've made changes to the mechanics of the game they keep them and refuse to revert them.

Kog'maw, Grievous wounds only applying to self healing, Draven's axe distance scaling with movespeed. All changes, all went live, all were reverted.

HongChongDong1 votes

{quoted}

Kog'maw, Grievous wounds only applying to self healing, Draven's axe distance scaling with movespeed. All changes, all went live, all were reverted.

Point taken.

Beheaded3 votes

Fizz main cries that his beloved champion's passivedoesnt satisfy him, meanwhileNunu DrMundo Heimerdinger

HongChongDong1 votes

{quoted}

Fizz main cries that his beloved champion's passivedoesnt satisfy him, meanwhileNunu DrMundo Heimerdinger

Hiemers passive is shit, granted. Mundo's is bad. But Nunu's isn't bad at all. Free abilities to use when out of mana or to sustain in the jungle.

However regardless just because other champions have shitty passives doesn't mean that Fizz's passive is suddenly not shit. It means that that are just that many champions with horrible abilities that need reworks.

SoundChaosDebug2 votes

Just a reminder that fizz gets rewarded for missing his ultimate, it does more and auto locks on.

MissingKayo3 votes

Wrong. The ultimate hitbox got stealth gutted a while back. It's trashed.

And even with old ultimate, he wasn't rewarded for missing. He didn't miss. They were still in the lock on zone.

dominusx1 votes

the real reminder is his E is still one of the most toxic abilities.

HongChongDong2 votes

{quoted}

the real reminder is his E is still one of the most toxic abilities.

You mean the only thing that keeps him from being on the bottom of champion list? If you hate him being untargetable though just remember hourglass does the same thing, and so does Zed R, Camille R, Shaco R, Vlad W, Liss R, Ekko R, and Elise E. That's only counting untargetable abilities. There's tons more like Fiora W that do the same thing but better. If you hate the mobility just remember that there are dozens of champions with mobility that can easily catch up to or escape that E.

And finally remember that if he uses that ability, he's screwed. He'll have no guaranteed escape, he can't dodge anything, he won't have any damage to threaten anything other than pure squishy champions, and the CD is 5.17 seconds at max rank with 40% CDR. For a squishy assassin who doesn't have a choice but to build full damage, 5 seconds is death.

HongChongDong2 votes

{quoted}

Just a reminder that fizz gets rewarded for missing his ultimate, it does more and auto locks on.

Statistically it actually lowers the overall damage potential of his kit. It changes his entire playstyle. It makes it so he's COMPLETELY screwed if he can't hit it. And it's your own fault if you don't understand how the latch on radius works.

Quepha2 votes

Just a reminder that passives do not have to be the most powerful and interesting part of a champion's kit.

HongChongDong1 votes

{quoted}

Just a reminder that passives do not have to be the most powerful and interesting part of a champion's kit.

You're missing the point. I'm saying that a champion that should have atleast a viable passive, regardless of how strong it is, has a useless passive that doesn't even have a place in the point of the game it was made for.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

You're missing the point. I'm saying that a champion that should have atleast a viable passive, regardless of how strong it is, has a useless passive that doesn't even have a place in the point of the game it was made for.

How can a passive be viable or unviable? Does Fizz choose to not use his passive in some games? Do people draft passives? Or do people draft champions that are the grand sum of their entire set of abilities and stats?

Also, Fizz's passive is not useless. As a melee champion with zero ranged abilities pre-6, the extra maneuverability and resistance to auto attack harass are boons to let him get into the wave, dodge skillshots, and get cs without getting hurt too badly. If you say those things are useless then you are lying.

Dreampod2 votes

Exactly!

Fizz's passive is a huge component to allowing him to farm and trade favourably in lane so that he isn't super weak when he transitions to team fights and his mobility and dodge allow him to function as an assassin.

Without it he would need a buff either to get through lane phase or to compensate for his low CS/kills which would make him more snowbally.

HongChongDong2 votes

{quoted}

How can a passive be viable or unviable? Does Fizz choose to not use his passive in some games? Do people draft passives? Or do people draft champions that are the grand sum of their entire set of abilities and stats?

Also, Fizz's passive is not useless. As a melee champion with zero ranged abilities pre-6, the extra maneuverability and resistance to auto attack harass are boons to let him get into the wave, dodge skillshots, and get cs without getting hurt too badly. If you say those things are useless then you are lying.

Does it do something? Yes. Does it actually make an impact on the overall game and make the champion stronger? No. If he something like Kassadin with a 15% reduction to basic attack damage then It would be better. On average a mages auto's will deal about 50-60 damage early game to you even if you're running armor. Through laning phase your passive will negate 4/6/8 damage per auto with higher levels being outside of laning phase. It'll help alittle with minions but most of the time you can't even trade long enough to make use of that. With most mages you have to get in, hit them with your W, and E out. Otherwise they'll win over an extended trade with lower CD's which could lead to your death by their hands or a jungle gank. This champions passive is taken up for that purpose and will not make any impact beyond that point.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

Does it actually make an impact on the overall game and make the champion stronger? No.

Liar.

How are you playing Fizz where you are using your E to escape? I'll bet he feels weak when you aren't using your most important damage ability.

HongChongDong1 votes

{quoted}

Liar.

How are you playing Fizz where you are using your E to escape? I'll bet he feels weak when you aren't using your most important damage ability.

Sure you can use it for that, but then you just used your biggest utility spell to trade. If it's an aggressive lane like syndra, ryze or ori then you WILL lose most of your HP for maybe 30-60% of theirs? Even if you E to engage then trade and Q back through the minions you'll still open yourself up to all of their damage. If it's an assassin like Kat, Leblanc, hell even Talon, Zed or akali that's basically suicide to start out with your E. Either way regardless of what happens the trade will cost you both utility spells and you'll be forced off of the wave till your E is back up, other wise you open yourself up to a gank or more free harass from them. The only time this isn't the case is when it's a weaker lane opponent that has horrible harass and/or you can threaten with kill pressure.

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