Sion should be more of a killer

Hexs Fortune·Jul 20, 2016·9 votes·1,088 views

Everything about him suggests a savage bruiser when in reality he is an all cc no damage tank.

I wish he had a lil more damage in his kit

42 Comments

PhantomGGJul 21, 20165 votes

don't know what you are doing, i normally out damage my entire team when I play sion, i do feel he needs some buffs though.

MicbranJul 21, 20161 votes

I'm not really sure he needs buffs.

DeathBurstJul 21, 20161 votes

Well, if you both outdamage your team and still think he needs buffs, then you're most probably building him wrong. Build more defense, less damage, and you'll see he doesn't really need any buff.

RalanrJul 21, 20163 votes

Sion has tons of damage. This is because his CC is unreliable.

Sion hurts. Hence why you want to dodge him.

TheHowesterJul 21, 20162 votes

The thing about his damage though is that its VERY unreliable AND doesnt do that much damage upfront. On the long run, he is able to do a good amount.

Late game, his damage is ... mediocre. Its not bad, but considering the amount of charge up you do with him and the time you sacrifice not hitting things, its not that worthy for damage.

I know he's supposed to be played as a tank, but the guy in the article has a good point: Sion was advertised as a "destructive killer that's super tanky and is reliant on his allies", but we got a "Guy who's really big and is reliant on his allies". I love Sion, and he isnt in the worst spot, but some love to his kit could go a long way (especially to his passive).

RalanrJul 21, 20161 votes

Well he lost a lot of power in his nerfs (though it's not like he didn't need nerfs).

I do feel that his passive could use a little love. Like reducing the reanimation time. Can't tell you how many people just outrun Sion and make his passive useless in fights.

TheHowesterJul 21, 20161 votes

True, but those were kind of needed...until they nerfed the items that made him OP in the first place (cinderhulk).

The thing is that there's already better made "unreliable fighter or tank" kits out there: Illaoi, Darius, Gragas, J4, and the like.

their kits have the ability to fail BUT, if done right, they can change fights AND be a constant nuisance; Right now, I feel Sion is just... there in the fights. He an engage, but he doesnt have enough "fear" in his kit right now to gander any worthy focus unless he builds lots of AD or AP.

I feel on the passive, they need to change "life steal" to "stealing max %HP". That way, he can stay up longer in late game fights while being encouraged to stay tanky.

I also think the passive could have Sion spin his axe around him after dying that deals 50% of all enemies'current HP as true damage before he goes into reanimated form. That way, people have to watch out for his corpse, dealing a ton of damage to targets that havent taken alot of hits (ADCs and Mages), while not doing alot to those that have gotten a fair share of hits (tanks, fighter). What do you think of this?

RalanrJul 21, 20161 votes

...that axe true damage idea would be broken as hell and discourage people from focusing him.

TheHowesterJul 21, 20161 votes

It would have a delay....Meh, oh well. What would you suggest for his passive?

RalanrJul 21, 20161 votes

Decreasing reanimation delay and not reducing his passive movement speed.

TheHowesterJul 21, 20161 votes

What about giving him 10/20/30% tenacity and slow reduction that doubles when he dies? Or is that too much?

Also could they fix the fact that he feels like he struggles to hit people, despite not being that much slower compared to other characters?

RalanrJul 21, 20161 votes

He actually is slower in his passive. If they remove that then I think it could work better.

His passive is supposed to make him a threat to use resources on. Having resources be naturally weaker against him might make it counter intuitive.

TheHowesterJul 21, 20161 votes

But dont tanks/fighters build Mercs/ swifties cuz tenacity reduction and slow reduction?

Can you explain in detail why tenacity be counter intuitive?

RalanrJul 21, 20161 votes

They do build it. I just think that giving him more in his passive would make him not worthy of being CCed and they would just flee.

If they CC you in a teamfight, they use resources and are still there. Making it easier for your teammates to capitalize on them.

Tanks need tenacity for when they are alive to peel. Sion's passive isn't the best for that job (or it is, but I still stand by my point).

TheHowesterJul 21, 20161 votes

I see, but what happens if the entire team gets CC'ed? Say a lucky Leona ult or something. Who's going to at least distract them? If Sion is to be a threat, he needs to say "fuck you CC" and rush the back lines, dead and all. If he continues to eat CC and ignores everyone but his main target, that can work both gameplay wise and lore wise.

Besides, he's isnt called the undead juggernaut for nothing.

Still, I see your point.

RalanrJul 21, 20161 votes

If the entire team is CCed, then that's unfortunate.

Some situations have no good answers.

TheHowesterJul 21, 20161 votes

I just feel they should go all out on his damage department; He's just so slow, and he's so damn angry. Instead it feels as if he can CC them...and that's it. Nautilus and Sej do that job pretty damn well already and maybe even better; Where's Sion's niche? What does he bring to the table that other CC bots dont? I want satisfaction from playing Sion as his own character, not just feeling as though he's "another tanky champ".

RalanrJul 21, 20161 votes

Nichewise? I don't know honestly. Hence why I wanted them to do a vanguard tank update.

Honestly he's more of a lane pushing bully than the other two. Though he and Sejuani can CC entire teams with basic abilities.

TheHowesterJul 21, 20161 votes

Exactly. Right now, Sion's kind of a mess.

He wants to build damage, but benefits more from being tanky (which is fine), it just pisses me off on how he's advertised as a "massacring shock trooper that has seen thousands of battles and threw himself in all of them, headfirst", yet is more or less a CC bot with glorified ratios and bullying tactics.

Still, better than he was many seasons ago...

RalanrJul 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Exactly. Right now, Sion's kind of a mess.

He wants to build damage, but benefits more from being tanky (which is fine), it just pisses me off on how he's advertised as a "massacring shock trooper that has seen thousands of battles and threw himself in all of them, headfirst", yet is more or less a CC bot with glorified ratios and bullying tactics.

Still, better than he was many seasons ago...

One thing to consider about massacring thousands. Champions are not foot soldiers. They are the best of the best. Foot soldiers would be on the same strength as minions, which Sion can clear very easily.

I'm interested in seeing what Riot thinks his niche is.

TequilaZombieJul 21, 20161 votes

I liked his old AD version. He did felt like a Juggernaut. He could possibly go Full AD and still life steal tank 5 enemies while killing them all.

Not that it was healthy, but it was fitting to his character.

IMO, he needs a small rework to fit into his theme.

His new ult is awesome, but too unreliable. If they made so he could make a sharp turn at the end or finish it with some kind of Mega Gnar jump (only slowing, instead of knocking up) it would be more reliable and still fun to use.

His passive has a delay that is way too long, making him not that much of a threat. Maybe having it be instantly activated, but weaker, would be nice.

RalanrJul 21, 20161 votes

I like the CC on his ult. I'd rather it not become just a slow.

DeathBurstJul 21, 20161 votes

My complaint regarding his passive is more that as a Tank, you shouldn't die anyway, because a smart team shouldn't focus you, and even if you die, that means you did your job already, you don't need the reward of your passive on top of it.

That's more a passive for a Diver/Skirmisher, or possibly a Battlemage (à la Karthus) than for a Tank.

What do you think?

RalanrJul 21, 20161 votes

Honestly I'm not sure I want them to give him a different passive. I find it fits him well thematically.

I'm sure he could get a better passive, like something that gives him a bonus effect when hitting a CCed target. But I'm not sure they'd work well.

Because of Sion's long distance engage and CC Q counterplay, it makes sense that he gets focused and killed in fights. So I guess his passive is supposed to benefit that?

Idk. There are times I don't die in teamfights, and sometimes my death in teamfights signals the turning point for the enemy team.

TequilaZombieJul 21, 20161 votes

I truly dislike that his acutal passive is what they thought to be a healthier version of his old ult.

If his base move speed could at least be increased instead of reduced and he had to be killed instead of naturally dying (like having his hp decrese naturaly until it reached 1hp) it would make him feel alot better.

TheHowesterJul 21, 20162 votes

{quoted}

My complaint regarding his passive is more that as a Tank, you shouldn't die anyway, because a smart team shouldn't focus you, and even if you die, that means you did your job already, you don't need the reward of your passive on top of it.

That's more a passive for a Diver/Skirmisher, or possibly a Battlemage (à la Karthus) than for a Tank.

What do you think?

Honestly, Im with Ralanr on this one. I dont want another passive, just some tweaks to make it better.

It just fits too well thematically, and it can attract the enemies' attention for longer. Its late game damage, sustain, and Sion's MS are the core problems on it right now.

USG FailsawceJul 21, 20162 votes

Sion... doesn't do damage? wtf game are you playing...

Sion is one of the few champs in this game given massive base damage SO that he doesn't have to build it. You're clearly playing him very very wrong.

CerealBoxOfDoomJul 21, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hexs Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hK5yEKJ4,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-07-20T23:43:57.300+0000)

Everything about him suggests a savage bruiser when in reality he is an all cc no damage tank.

I wish he had a lil more damage in his kit

if you build him for dealing no damage he will deal no damage

sion is not a tank

if he is a tank he's a pretty shitty tank, by the way he isn't a tank

PhantomGGJul 21, 20165 votes

{quoted}

if you build him for dealing no damage he will deal no damage

sion is not a tank

if he is a tank he's a pretty shitty tank, by the way he isn't a tank

if you aren't playing him as a tank than you are doing something horrible wrong, his entire toolkit screams "engage, soak damage, cc"

CerealBoxOfDoomJul 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

if you aren't playing him as a tank than you are doing something horrible wrong, his entire toolkit screams "engage, soak damage, cc"

By this logic irelia is also a tank and so are Diana and hecarim

sion is a fighter, if you want to deal damage build like you want to do damage, if you do enough damage to minions and monsters you will get some bonus hp anyways.

RalanrJul 21, 20163 votes

Sion has 3 abilities with CC. Two of which are AoE knock up abilities.

Sure you can build him as a fighter, but he is great as a tank.

DeathBurstJul 21, 20162 votes

No, Diana/Hecarim/Irelia's kits do not scream "soak damage", they just have a bit of durability in order to survive long enough to deal their damage, and they have great access to priority targets. How do you jump on the ADC/APC when you play as Sion? Well, you can't, because you're not a Diver.

DeathBurstJul 21, 20162 votes

And what is a Champ with 5 different forms of CC on 4 kills and a shit ton of HPs/shields if not a Tank?

He's definitely not a Juggernaut, he's not a Diver. What do you think he is?

TequilaZombieJul 21, 20161 votes

An initiator.

RalanrJul 21, 20161 votes

...there is an entire class of tanks that are imitators. They are called vanguards.

TequilaZombieJul 21, 20161 votes

Yeah, I totally forgot the fancy new names Riot gave to the classes. Still the same thing.

RalanrJul 21, 20161 votes

Yeah, a tank.

L Psy KongrooJul 21, 20161 votes

Each attack during his passive deals 10% of the target's max HP. Build a Frozen Mallet + Black Cleaver and you'll do plenty of damage if you time your deaths right.

101100111000Jul 21, 20162 votes

I really don't think timing your death is exactly something that is wholly within Sion's control. :^|

L Psy KongrooJul 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I really don't think timing your death is exactly something that is wholly within Sion's control. :^|

Maybe not the death itself, but you can definitely time your engages. And with a bit of guesswork based on the approximate damage output of the enemy team, you can get a reasonable estimate as to when and where you'll die if you engage at a predetermined time. Similar to how Karthus times his death so that he's in a good spot to keep casting spells for free, Sion can place himself right in the middle of the enemy team and expect to be promptly focused down, where he can then unleash his maximum damage output.