Anyone else feel like champs aren't buffed/nerfed equally? ( Hear me out)

Hexs Fortune·Sep 9, 2015·175 votes·9,041 views

Riot is so slow to nerf vayne, but quick on the trigger for other champs

Things like Evelynn gets nerfed out of the blue, but season long god tier vayne is untouchable.

Then we have the love tap buffs/nerfs to champs like MF, but huge sweeping buffs/nerfs to champs like skarner

Finally we have obscure rarely seen champs like galio that don't even get attention from devs.

People say galio exists solely to counter full AP teams. That's not a champion identity so much as it sounds like the role of an item

198 Comments

LankPantsSep 9, 201595 votes

LeeSin Top of the pack for 3 years, received only minor nerfs. 'Out of the meta' for a few months and gets a buff.

Riot 100% plays favourites when it comes to balancing and they have since around S3.

FëalnortSep 9, 20158 votes

Well it is true that they balance the fav faster champions but it's normal. The ultimate job of any game is : making money. To make money you need happy players. To get happy player, you make sure their fav champ are never out meta.

But it is not true 100% of the time :poppy rework soon , sion rework, viktor rework, morde, skarner, galio buff, heim rework.. All of these were unplayed or out of meta at some point and they changed it in the right way. ( it took a long time but they did it ).

Also, lee sin is one of the hardest and funiest champ to play in the game, and even if strong in good hands he is still not OP. Would be sad if nobody could play him anymore . ( i do enjoy seing a good insec in a game, even when he do it on me)

You are right to point the flaws you see but Overhall riot is still doing a good job

Ps : sorry if my english is bad

Champion SkinSep 9, 201510 votes

Sion level reworks... is more like releasing a new champions with some inspiration from this other champion which is now gone but had the same name

It Hertz When IPSep 9, 20159 votes

This. New Sion feels nothing like the old Sion. In a good way, though.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvbSep 9, 20154 votes

Sometimes I miss full crit sion. Then I remember that it was pretty much unplayable

One Bind MorganaSep 9, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Well it is true that they balance the fav faster champions but it's normal. The ultimate job of any game is : making money. To make money you need happy players. To get happy player, you make sure their fav champ are never out meta.

But it is not true 100% of the time :poppy rework soon , sion rework, viktor rework, morde, skarner, galio buff, heim rework.. All of these were unplayed or out of meta at some point and they changed it in the right way. ( it took a long time but they did it ).

Also, lee sin is one of the hardest and funiest champ to play in the game, and even if strong in good hands he is still not OP. Would be sad if nobody could play him anymore . ( i do enjoy seing a good insec in a game, even when he do it on me)

You are right to point the flaws you see but Overhall riot is still doing a good job

Ps : sorry if my english is bad

ur funny if u think lee sin is hard to play

euJHINiusSep 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Well it is true that they balance the fav faster champions but it's normal. The ultimate job of any game is : making money. To make money you need happy players. To get happy player, you make sure their fav champ are never out meta.

But it is not true 100% of the time :poppy rework soon , sion rework, viktor rework, morde, skarner, galio buff, heim rework.. All of these were unplayed or out of meta at some point and they changed it in the right way. ( it took a long time but they did it ).

Also, lee sin is one of the hardest and funiest champ to play in the game, and even if strong in good hands he is still not OP. Would be sad if nobody could play him anymore . ( i do enjoy seing a good insec in a game, even when he do it on me)

You are right to point the flaws you see but Overhall riot is still doing a good job

Ps : sorry if my english is bad

I am just butthurt by the fact game's purpose is to make money. Plus, they make money off of making great skins.

Pika310Sep 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I am just butthurt by the fact game's purpose is to make money. Plus, they make money off of making great skins.

This is something I don't understand. As a business, your goal is to make money. As an online game, you need to make changes that will bring in said money.

The changes Riot makes to this game appear to be aimed at losing money. Look at DJ Sona for example: Ultimate skins have a low return on investment, yet immediately before its release, they completely gutted her into an unplayable mess in 4.13. They lost a huge number of potential sales on that skin because of this, I've personally heard countless players confirm this. Then you had the delusional players that said, "they'll buff her when the dust settles," but here we are over a year after 4.13 and she's even worse off. She's never received a single true buff in this game's entire history. Many players refunded the skin and the greater majority abandoned her after 2 games when they realized she's beyond trash.

euJHINiusSep 17, 20152 votes

{quoted}

This is something I don't understand. As a business, your goal is to make money. As an online game, you need to make changes that will bring in said money.

The changes Riot makes to this game appear to be aimed at losing money. Look at DJ Sona for example: Ultimate skins have a low return on investment, yet immediately before its release, they completely gutted her into an unplayable mess in 4.13. They lost a huge number of potential sales on that skin because of this, I've personally heard countless players confirm this. Then you had the delusional players that said, "they'll buff her when the dust settles," but here we are over a year after 4.13 and she's even worse off. She's never received a single true buff in this game's entire history. Many players refunded the skin and the greater majority abandoned her after 2 games when they realized she's beyond trash.

I agree with everything you said. My issue with treating games as a money maker is that they become just that. Games are great experiences and are a potentially amazing medium.

You should have a good game that lets the player experience it first. Then profit.

EgillionSep 9, 201537 votes

Can we see a world championship without Lee Sin being Top tier in the jungle ?

I think not -_-

And do you remember when they never decided to nerf Renekton through out the entire season 3 up to late season 4 ? And when he started to fall off a bit he got buffed like crazy.. and he also got buffed by the titanic juggernaut meta recently before wolrds (I am not even surprised). Meanwhile champions like Shyvana who evolved on the top lane during the same period got nerfed over and over on everything instantly.

Riot designers are biased as hell... it's obvious.

Ariel the CruelSep 9, 201511 votes

Renekton sat in place because of the "Renekton Bar". It was riot's stated attempt at balancing top lane by picking a healthy champion and trying to make other champions as good as him.

Not for or against the decision. But that one at least had a purpose other than blatant favoritism.

TrebbiSep 9, 201516 votes

{quoted}

Top of the pack for 3 years, received only minor nerfs. 'Out of the meta' for a few months and gets a buff.

Riot 100% plays favourites when it comes to balancing and they have since around S3.

Good to see that they also add random Armour buffs to JarvanIV as well.

Ramza ParadiseSep 9, 20156 votes

It's because of the fan base.

Apparently they couldn't change Lee because of "huge player backlash"

Except when Cass got huge changes and had similar, yet smaller backlash, they went through anyway.

Vayne and Riven both have similar rabid fanbases as Lee Sin. Explains why they don't get touched.

EgillionSep 9, 20152 votes

There must always be a Lee Sin !

http://i.imgur.com/mm783co.png

Zone of EndlessSep 10, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Top of the pack for 3 years, received only minor nerfs. 'Out of the meta' for a few months and gets a buff.

Riot 100% plays favourites when it comes to balancing and they have since around S3.

All come back to those LCS BIC PLAYZ

Flashy champs get priority.

I Came For YouSep 9, 201521 votes

I feel like people think buffing/nerfing is too simple.

SalidfingersSep 9, 20151 votes

Sometimes things don't even need to be touch when you have someone like yorick that's just forgotten.

FëalnortSep 9, 201520 votes

Yorick is actually very strong. His gameplay in the other hand is very boring.

TyroneWatermelonSep 9, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=I Came For You,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=M3tAhz6P,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-09-09T06:52:31.635+0000)

I feel like people think buffing/nerfing is too simple.

I came for you too,that's why there's the PBe and whole balance team at riot. Who still don't give a fact about braindead champs

PiVoRxSep 9, 201530 votes

pbe is for teasing skins

Critmaster GarenSep 9, 201516 votes

stealth paranoya. they said until they know what to do with eve, theyll nerf her every time until she sees play. she was balanced until the vision changes in preseason 4, which drastically reduced the counterplay to stealth, and basically turned her entire first rework to shit and useless.

no oracles anymore, no invisible (safe) pink wards, means its become extremely hard to ward properly against her. if youre behind in lane at any point and cant defend your pink ward, youre basically fucked. not to mention your opponent might take him out even when youre ahead, since leaving it for 10 seconds might already be enough.

you also can only place 1 pink, in contrast to before, which means you can only defend 1 entrance to your lane. meaning you opponent can just notify eve where it is and she ganks through another path.

imo her problems are easy to fix, but for some reason riot wont touch her passive any further. all they need to do is to make green wards issue a ping on themselves when she enters their vision area, without even revealing her. then you can ward halfway decently against her and they can buff her base kit as compensation.

like 50% of her power budget is in her passive right now, and as long as its op, they will always nerf her if her base kit is anywhere near decent.

SteelStallionSep 9, 201512 votes

No, the bigger problem is that most people on these forums suck sh!t at balancing and game theory but assume they've got it all figured out because;

a) they've played X games against Y champion, and they lost! Anecdotal evidence is infallible! (Hint: It's actually not)

b) they feel vindicated by the hundred upvotes that they fish out of other idiots on this forum, because apparently clicking an UP arrow as an afterthought is an accurate indicator of whether someone is right.

c) they look at things like win rate percentages on lolking.com and assume that anything that isn't exactly at 50% is not balanced.

People whine about shit like Lee Sin when he has under 50% win rate. Orianna and Gragas are top tier competitive picks but have an under 50% win rate. No one on these forums seems to grasp that win rates DO NOT directly correlate to a champion's balance, except in EXTREME circumstances like some of the Juggernaughts post patch.

This thread is the same shit people have been miming like lemmings all over the forums constantly, and frankly, I'm glad Riot doesn't listen to most of you morons. There are always going to be balance problems; LoL is a growing game and it's difficult to balance an increasingly large roster of champions against each other. But spamming threads about how Vayne is OP, which Riot is well aware of, doesn't take into consideration the fact that they might be working on it without further upsetting the balance of the game or trying to approach its balance indirectly. Certain champions being powerful at certain points in the game's life time aren't always because of the flat numbers, sometimes it's because their lane counters are particularly weak at the moment, or certain itemization options that favor them are more powerful, and that opens up an entire web of balance that Riot cannot simply balance directly or carelessly lest they make a mess of things even more.

Be patient, smarten up, and look to your own game. This thread mentions Galio has no place in the game, and a lot of people say that Zac and Aatrox are woefully underpowered or out of place, but I've climbed my way to Diamond playing largely those 3 champions among a few other odd balls. Stop being so concerned with what is and what isn't OP or FOTM and just play what you want and try to get good at it, and you'll get some where.

In the meanwhile, I'm sure Riot is going to work on these things. They're not some maniacal moustache twirling Vayne mains that drum their fingers together and laugh in ecstasy at people dying to Vayne, it's in their best interest to work these things out eventually.

Vik4prezSep 9, 20159 votes

I think I remember seeing a post a few days ago about how Riot doesn't nerf the top tier champions and will instead nerf the second and third tier champions so that, when they get around to nerfing the top tier, the second and third tier wont be there to instantly become top tier. The level of stupidity in such a process is mind boggling to say the least because there will ALWAYS be a second and third tier under the first, regardless of how good the champs in it are. All doing the above accomplishes is letting the top tier reign supreme to an even greater degree because now the somewhat good champions you might use to try to even the scales have been nerfed.

For a game this large with so many champions and items, the only real solution Riot has is to use a "water-wheel" sort of balancing process where they just continually adjust champion power based on what becomes "OP" after their last round of changes. The only alternative would be to make absolutely no changes to items/champions for a prolonged period of time and then release a massive rebalancing patch to try to get EVERY champion into a balanced state. Of course, doing such is pretty implausible, especially considering the LCS level of play they have to manage, but it is still technically an option.

Nidalee SO NYAAASep 9, 20157 votes

I feel like for Sona. Riot seems to hate her and wants to keep weak

Leu07Sep 9, 20154 votes

Yeah, I feel you :c she was my first main, I was ok with the rework but then all those "better nerf Sona" came and I haven't played her in a loooong time. I mained Cassiopeia too, I was fine with the rework too, but then the nerf hammer came too and now I have to play champs I don't really love just because it is frustrating to play as Sona or Cass when you see freaking Ahris and yasuos or better overall better supp like Janna and Thresh.

ShinjusukeSep 9, 20156 votes

Honestly this is already fairly common knowledge to literally anyone with any ability to look at trends or sense of rationality.

Lee sin gets buffed LITERALLY only because he's not top tier for once going into worlds, while Shaco has been untouched garbage tier for years, and people pretend riot isn't insanely biased?

And that's just one of the ultra obvious examples. There's a boatload more.

The bias doesn't bug me so much as the circlejerk delusion about it at riot games. There a small group primarily handling balancing, who have similar opinions, and play ABSURD levels of favoritism. Either nobody calls them out on it in-house, or the people in charge just have massive egos and are convinced they're objective. I'm not sure which is more sad to think about, but it's going to kill a game that's fantastic for no reason other than simple arrogance if it continues for the next couple years as it has been until now.

OperationDEEZ1Sep 10, 20152 votes

The less people who play Shaco, the better.

RAT IN GAME UwU Sep 9, 20155 votes

i'm pretty sure anyone paying attention feels that way

TyroneWatermelonSep 9, 20154 votes

They aren't slow,they just don't touch their trademark broken and quit braindead champion list: Katarina,Vayne,Riven,Fizz,Kalista,Ahri

FëalnortSep 9, 20155 votes

Katarina is shitty above silver or in ranked in general ( one stun= dead), vayne is one of the hardest champ to play in the game and she is weak early, riven THE hardest champion in the game ( in my opinion) .

Ahri is strong but not overpowered. ( mobility op, but she got 2 skillshot as main dammage, you can evade both and she become useless )

I am ok to say i HATE fizz, but you can't nerf him or he become useless. ( also take champ like swain and suddenly he can't do shit, or ahri to kite him to death, or lb to ouburst him... ).

Lord AzırSep 9, 201522 votes

{quoted}

Katarina is shitty above silver or in ranked in general ( one stun= dead), vayne is one of the hardest champ to play in the game and she is weak early, riven THE hardest champion in the game ( in my opinion) .

Vayne is statistically one of the easiest ADCs in game to play, far from the hardest champ. Even bronze - silver players that pick her up out of nowhere have a +50% win rate with her. As for Riven, what makes her so hard? She has no skillshots, how is she harder to play than Cassiopeia, Azir, Lee Sin, Draven?

LankPantsSep 9, 201527 votes

She has no skillshots

Skillshot's aren't really what makes a champ hard to play, just look at Ez, he's not a hard champ to play despite all of his skillshots.

There are a few things that make champs more challenging to play.

A high dependency on good positioning: Cassiopeia , Draven , Syndra , Ashe , KogMaw ect.

A lot of different combos with different uses Syndra , Azir , LeeSin , ect. Riven kind of falls here, but falls a little short since all of her combos will always work at least decently well in all situations

A weird playstyle which doesn't really play like anything else: Shaco , Gnar , Fiora , Gangplank ect.

I do agree that Riv has a low skill floor, but she actually has a very high skill cap.

Cinderhulk RivenSep 9, 20153 votes

http://champion.gg/champion/Riven

44% win rate for newer players and, you need over 50 ranked games with her to hit 50% win rate. Her skill floor is, in fact, deceptively high.

Lord AzırSep 9, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cinderhulk Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=M3tAhz6P,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2015-09-09T16:51:52.905+0000)

http://champion.gg/champion/Riven

44% win rate for newer players and, you need over 50 ranked games with her to hit 50% win rate. Her skill floor is, in fact, deceptively high.

http://champion.gg/champion/Azir

35% winrate for new players and you need 125+ games just to hit 50%. And people say Riven is hard, pls.

RatbertSep 9, 20152 votes

All that means is that Azir is "harder" on average. I don't think anyone even considers azir an easy champ to play. It doesn't suddenly mean riven is ez "play for 5 games" tier.

CalandriosSep 9, 201514 votes

Vayne is no longer bad in early game stages

LVL 5 POROSep 9, 20154 votes

/agree

I'm pretty sure Rito forgot Galio exist.

TacoTheKittenSep 9, 20155 votes

What's a galio?

JariSep 10, 20154 votes

I could be wrong, but I believe Galio is an old old wooden ship from the civil war era.

CosnirakSep 9, 20154 votes

Riot is very biased in what champions get buffs and nerfs. But the key that most people don't understand is that Riot SHOULD be biased about it. Do you want Yorick buffs? Do you enjoy laning against Galio? Does anyone actually wanna see Katarina good enough to see LCS play?

I know, there are still problems now. Zed and Yasuo mid all day in solo Q queue gets rough sure. But behind half the underplayed champions you'll never see in the LCS is a champion one wrong buff away from dominating. Just because you don't see a champion like Brand played much doesn't mean he can't destroy you, it just means he's a lot worse when his opponents can often counter pick and have good team work (LCS).

Also there are 126 champions and they'll never all be balanced and fun and awesome at once. Oh well. Got a specific champion you think needs some help? Make a really good case for it and you might be surprised what happens.

Hayaishi2Sep 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Riot is very biased in what champions get buffs and nerfs. But the key that most people don't understand is that Riot SHOULD be biased about it. Do you want Yorick buffs? Do you enjoy laning against Galio? Does anyone actually wanna see Katarina good enough to see LCS play?

I know, there are still problems now. Zed and Yasuo mid all day in solo Q queue gets rough sure. But behind half the underplayed champions you'll never see in the LCS is a champion one wrong buff away from dominating. Just because you don't see a champion like Brand played much doesn't mean he can't destroy you, it just means he's a lot worse when his opponents can often counter pick and have good team work (LCS).

Also there are 126 champions and they'll never all be balanced and fun and awesome at once. Oh well. Got a specific champion you think needs some help? Make a really good case for it and you might be surprised what happens.

There's a difference between being objective and biased though.

Eve doesn't deserve to be viable, she's toxic so i understand why Riot nerfs her.

But buffing say Lee Sin when he wasn't even bad, over champions like Galio is disgusting. Galio could easily need a rework to give him a better identity, or maybe just a simple buff, yet Riot buffs Lee Sin.

Then we have Vayne, hardly the healthiest ADC in the roster, and she's allowed to dominate for how long now? 3 months? 2? i don't know but it's been a while and Riot nerfs Shen instead of Vayne.

They are discussing Syndra buffs, yet everybody who remembers why she was nerfed in the first place knows how much of an horrible idea it is to buff Syndra.

CosnirakSep 10, 20152 votes

"Eve doesn't deserve to be viable, she's toxic so i understand why Riot nerfs her."

This is a great example of people having their own opinion of how things should be and how often that differs from other random players, let alone Riot. So often the forums are a hotbed of echo chamber, group think, upvote farming, win rate touting (as if it matters) utter garbage repeated by idiots who are awful at balance. And that's from a fellow hater of Riven who wants to see her nerfed into oblivion. Riot's not perfect, but they're WAY better at balance than the forums give them credit for and obviously way better than the average forum goer at it.

EDIT: To be clear, I'm not saying you're doing those things. But the forums in general do, and I'm sure you've seen the end result of it.

My own feelings on the champions you mentioned just for your pleasure so you can contrast it with how you feel about them and see what I mean:

I don't think Eve is toxic or should be made unviable (and neither does Riot from what I've seen). But that's just my opinion on the matter. I've only barely played her, don't play against her that often, and she seems fine in the high tier and pro games I watch. ~~The latest PBE nerf seems a little unnecessary to me but not that big anyways.~~ Oh look I just checked and the latest PBE changes include reverting that nerf. PBE is PBE.

I agreed with Riot on the energy return change for Lee as a fellow Lee scrub (I don't even own him). The ult buff seemed tiny but not really needed. Overall a pretty small impact, especially at high tier play.

Galio is a weird situation to me because I think he's actually quite good. However he has kit issues that make him a little worse as skill and coordination of the enemy go up, making it very unlikely for him to see high tier play. Also he's really hard to play well, especially early on because his mana is rough at first. Combined these two factors leave him in an awkward spot where he's OP at low tier play but only in the hands of people who main him. But if Riot makes his mana less of an issue in the early game he gets really annoying to play against for lower tier players. So how to change him? And does he really need changes? I'm not sure he does. They did in fact buff him twice this season as well, though not greatly. I could see his E costing 60-80 mana instead of the 70-90 it does now though. Currently using it early at all is usually a mistake.

I don't think Vayne is a big problem right now. I know the stats. Blah blah stats are skewed, partially self perpetuating bs anyways. The main thing is Blade of the Ruined King is too good and Vayne is annoying to deal with. I think if they just cut the stealth on her ult + tumbles in half and nerf BotRK a little she'd be fine. It's hard to cc her when you can't see her.

Shen was a little too good. I think they're trying to make his laning and split pushing a little less safe as well as take away some of his hidden power in team fights. Seems reasonable. He got some hefty buffing earlier this season and has seen a lot of pro play since.

As long as they're done right I'm ok with some Syndra buffs. They just gotta be real careful. Her mid game is good and with all the bug fixes a lot more consistent now. I wish her play style was a little less binary but whatever. And that's from someone who currently gets facerolled by Syndra. Man I gotta learn how to play vs her better. If they buff her enough elsewhere they should increase the cd on her ult a little, it's rather low for a point and click nuke.

EgillionSep 9, 20151 votes

Some champions SHOULD be kept away from the competitive scene that's for sure. Some of them are toxic or retarded. Fair point.

But it doesn't mean that the game can stay as biased as it is now : this state is not acceptable . In casual and semi-serious (ranked & high elo ranked) play, those things matter more than ever.

Do you remember the days ( late season 2 and the entire season 3 basically) where Riot tuned down rengar so much that he wouldn't even be playable in normal games lol. This is the typical example of what Riot is capable of. The cat was basically a trash champion with like 40% win rate or something like that.

**So in the end, the problem is that if you want to win games, you HAVE TO be on Riot's side as far as balance goes. **

Pika310Sep 10, 20154 votes

I know as well as anyone how blatantly discriminatory Riot's "balance" changes are. Despite being weak, Sona was severely gutted in 4.13 into the weakest champion in the game. Riot saw that they'd made her unplayable and followed up with yet more nerfs.

Riot's decision-making on champion changes is 110% biased and < 1% based on real balance issues and logic.

PiVoRxSep 10, 20152 votes

Ahri LeeSin Thresh Vayne I think those deserve some LCS/nerf-proof skin theme since thres no Worlds without them and Riot refuses to fix.

Pika310Sep 10, 20154 votes

Ahri has been nerfed 6 times this season alone. Thrice to her damage output, twice to her spell ranges and now once to her sustain.

Hell, there was a long time from late S3 to mid S4 where she was just unplayable due to severe mana-gating.

ahferroin7Sep 10, 20152 votes

Upvoted for correct usage of the word 'thrice'. (and also being correct about the ahri nerfs).

MrButtermancerSep 10, 20151 votes

Strategy, item building, and resource management are typically being sidelined in favor of raw champion kits and reflex. Champions that Riot believes are fun to watch are prioritized above and beyond champions that are fun to play.

Riot has a real beef with Mages and Assassins (built as such) recently, as they deal burst damage. They can be extraordinarily fun and risky to play, but teamfights become shorter, yes? Not as much action in LC$.

"Counterplay" has become a word used to justify changes, not make them. Counterplay no longer means "behaviors in the game meant to reduce the impact of present or anticipated enemy action" as much as it means "things you can do to negate what your opponent just did, making no assumptions about your champion choice, positioning, or items." The power of items has been devalued. Riot's justification for Fiora's ultimate doing % max health burst damage was,

"[it] allows her to threaten bulkier ones without having an unfair advantage against the more fragile. If it dealt %HP physical damage instead, the number would have to be much larger to scratch through a tank's armor, and that same number would mean instant death to unarmored opponents."

This basically says, "we want Fiora to be able to engage targets regardless of role, items, or armor." It devalues all anticipatory play and seeks to justify putting the entire outcome of a fight on the way each player plays exclusively during the moments of actual engagement. It's a total rejection of strategy.

League of Legends is changing from a game into a spectator sport. Administrative policy is pushing the game away from a contest of strategy, positioning, and resource management, into a contest of fine motor control and reflex. Which has many people upset because this new League barely resembles the game that attracted them to begin with.

These attitudes are reflected in every level of development including champion balance. If it's not flashy and widely visible, they simply don't care as much.

ahferroin7Sep 10, 20154 votes

I find this even funnier because they fail to realize that if they alienate their playerbase, they have no one for the pros to actually recruit.