Irelia stun: Still toxic, still ignored because of Juggernauts

darkdill·Aug 12, 2015·11 votes·5,825 views

Punished with up to 2-second stun for getting ahead of her? What the fuck?

But oh wait, she's not a Juggernaut, so Riot doesn't care right now.

38 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 12, 201510 votes

Irelia's stun has had its paradigm since she was created as far as I know. To suggest it's because of Juggernauts that it hasn't been changed seems a bit over the top.

For what it's worth, I don't really like how it works either, so I'm open to hearing improvement opportunities. Do you have any suggestions for how it should work? Or at least what specifically is broken about it?

SaltyKrackaAug 12, 20154 votes

The fact that it's a stun if you're both at equal % health is definitely not fun to play against. It means you can't win trades against her, she's always got a bigger threat if you're both coming back to lane, and that unless you're actually behind it's more dangerous to be near her.

Also, the part where it punishes you for being good at killing her.

MeªtAug 12, 20153 votes

Like the guy below you said, have the duration of the stun be based on the "balance" , of her and her target's health. Not in the sense that having .1% less than their health should be justification of a 2 second stun, but in that the amount of health missing should dictate the length. Not by a heavy amount, like the .1% would still stun, but only for a jiffy (enough for an AA to get through, say).

Inversely, if her health is just .1% OVER the target's health percentage, Irelia should get a slow that is longer than what she has now. That slow length should decrease with the more health she has on her opponent, fitting the theme of balance.

idk just my two cents I like her alot, I think her ratios are fine, it's just it's a little too easy to get away after a trade with a massive stun that even allows me to get a couple autos in before Q-ing to a minion away.

EnosetcAug 12, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Irelia's stun has had its paradigm since she was created as far as I know. To suggest it's because of Juggernauts that it hasn't been changed seems a bit over the top.

For what it's worth, I don't really like how it works either, so I'm open to hearing improvement opportunities. Do you have any suggestions for how it should work? Or at least what specifically is broken about it?

imo, it shouldn't work based solely on her percentage of missing health. due to her kit having access to so much raw damage and tenacity, she's allowed to become extremely tanky, hard to lock down and even harder to duel. there's no reason a triforce-tank irelia with a quarter of her health missing should be able to stun a squishy full-health champion for two seconds given the fact that she can repeatedly close the gap with bladesurge on minions until she's in range of her target.

as for how it should work... uhhhh... this is a tough one to tackle.

ModAcademy KaynAug 12, 20151 votes

Make it if they have exactly the same amount of health, it does nothing at all. No damage, no stun/slow. Nothing. They are equal.

Krys StarAug 12, 20152 votes

God, Repertoir. I feel guilty about bothering you so much about this, but I really, truly feel like the information and suggestions I've provided would be spot on and great for Miss Fortune.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/0qyBqgbE-changes-that-would-benefit-and-improve-miss-fortune

If you could please check it out! T_T I'm very passionate and confident in my changes and knowledge about Miss Fortune. D: I feel you may enjoy or get an idea from this, as well!

BeoridasAug 12, 20151 votes

id like to point out that her whole theme is getting stronger while being outnumbered. Timing her W is crucial with her with her E. An opponent can exploit that W down time and go after her.

When you think that Renekton, Udyr, ryze etc.. have an easier stun (root for ryze) i dont think its that oppressive. I just dont think the eco balance of the top lane is good enough for her to have a rougher time overall. I dont play her and im happy that she sees play compared to none at all before Alliance played her in LCS

Dies to WolvesAug 12, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Irelia's stun has had its paradigm since she was created as far as I know. To suggest it's because of Juggernauts that it hasn't been changed seems a bit over the top.

For what it's worth, I don't really like how it works either, so I'm open to hearing improvement opportunities. Do you have any suggestions for how it should work? Or at least what specifically is broken about it?

Well, I hate irelia and think she's absurdly broken on many levels, but since you're asking about her stun specifically, i'll be brief:

Even though it's unreliable, it's not something that you as an opponent can stop from happening; the only "positive" situation for you is that, if you're running away low on health rather than trying to fight her, she has less stopping power, it's "just" a slow, but when laning or fighthing her or whatever you can't do anything about it, she WILL stun you (unless she completely curb stomps you, and even then she can still stun you because it stuns even if you're both on 100% health). As such, since there's no sure fire way to avoid it, i think it lasts too long - especially considering how much damage irelia deals.

AnonagonAug 12, 20152 votes

Whats specifically broken about it is that a fed irelia can sit at half health and 100-0 anybody who comes within her Q's range of her because she has a two second stun and hella damage.

Make it a root, or a 99% slow. That would be a good start, and I wouldn't be surprised if Irelia is still nearly as strong after.

Linna ExcelAug 12, 20151 votes

There's nothing broken about her E if you ask me. If I wanted to play with it, it would stun all the time and then I'd give it a %current magic damage component and a %missing self heal. That at least would give it a more interesting on using it.

But then again, she's my only top really and I don't want to see her nerfed as I don't play top enough to get a feel for that lane. From the people I've talked to, she's like most top champs: facing irelia is about learning her spikes and at which level who beats who.

ProfDrDeathAug 12, 20154 votes

How it could work, imo:

Equilibrium Strike always applies 1-2 seconds of CC, based on its rank.
Its primary CC effect is a 50% slow (as it is now).
The secondary effect is a stun that gets only applied if Irelia has equal or less relative HP.
The duration of said stun at equal relative HP is exactly half the total CC duration (0.5-1 seconds), with the remainder being the slow.
The duration of the stun goes up the bigger the difference in relative HP is, up to the full duration of the CC effect. Which is achieved at double relative HP (for example).

Example: 50% HP Irelia rank 5 E's a 50% HP Malphite. He gets stunned for 1 second, then slowed for 1 second. If Malphite had 100% HP instead, he'd be stunned for 2 seconds, and not slowed afterwards.

Electro522Aug 12, 20151 votes

I think this guy has the right idea. Although, i don't think she should be able to stun if both her and her opponent have the same amount of health. Perhaps giving it like a 5% health window for stunning (for example: Irelia at 65% health, Malphite at 70%)? As compensation for that, the slow it gives would be at its strongest in this 5% health window.

Unfortunately, this is making the ability stupidly complex. However, with how this ability is designed, I don't think there is any way to avoid it from being stupidly complex to be balanced.

RIP Tahm KenchAug 12, 20152 votes

It's interesting but doesn't stop my main problem with Irelia, she Q's the adc and they're dead before the stun wears off because she's most likely going to be <99% hp to the adc's 100% and bloodthirster shield. No matter what % the adc is at with this change means they're dead.

darkdillAug 12, 20153 votes

It's more a case that Irelia stunning you for outplaying her is simply something that feels wrong in principle. You got ahead, you should be beating her, not the other way around.

Now, if it were a Snare instead of a Stun, it'd be reasonable, as you could at least shoot back at her. Or if the Stun couldn't last longer than 1 second, it'd be acceptable. But being stunned for 2 seconds while being on a pretty good cooldown is just painful.

Or maybe a little bit of both Stun/Snare. Maybe it could be "stuns for the first half, snares for the second half". This way, you can at least fight back a little bit while immobilized.

macromiteAug 12, 20151 votes

I think the point of this skill is to be an equalizer, right? its why she can only use the stun if she has lower health. an idea I have for it is to replace the stun on low health with a %current hp damage if she has lower hp. the slow and the other base still apply, but this should help by removing the capability to completely turn a duel in her favor from slightly behind, while still turning the duel in her favor. of course, this in change would also harm her teamfight considerably, but it could end up making room for buffs to her other abilities, I think.

TerchioAug 12, 20151 votes

I don't have a huge problem with it. It is a stun, but it is single-target, melee, and requires her own health to be low to even work. The only thing that makes it seem long to some is that everyone feels they have such a strong need to duel with her, in my opinion. She doesn't even have the burst to harass most of the time, and you're free to pelt away at a distance, and run at your whim. There are a number of champions like that, but she actually stuns while pecking slowly, which makes her CC feel particularly strong, as opposed to champions that simply clear that last chunk of HP instead, like Darius, Garen, Gangplank, and Nidalee. The HP chop is generally more effective, but that CC feels like a million years as you cling to the last bits of your health.

PoskeAug 12, 20151 votes

Better E

Its quite simple

Irelia controls blades. She deservers way cooler E to begin with. If it is still going to be a hard cc then it should be skillshot or something which ll have counterplay

RIP Tahm KenchAug 12, 20156 votes

ProfDrDeath's idea is interesting, but I thought I'd tweak it a bit so it's not always a stun:

The base slow is slightly reduced
Slow strength is increased gradually as the difference in hp % is greater in Irelia's favor (so for example a max 70% slow when Irelia has 25% more hp than her target)
When the difference in % hp is in her opponent's favor, the slow is gradually replaced by a stun (so if maximum stun potential is unlocked when she has 25% less hp than her target, having 5% less means she only stuns for 20% of the duration, 0.4 seconds)

This would remove those edge cases where in close battles a 1% hp swing decides a death sentence by stun or a kill.

KingsgraveAug 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Irelia's stun has had its paradigm since she was created as far as I know. To suggest it's because of Juggernauts that it hasn't been changed seems a bit over the top.

For what it's worth, I don't really like how it works either, so I'm open to hearing improvement opportunities. Do you have any suggestions for how it should work? Or at least what specifically is broken about it?

Honestly my only real problem with Irelia's E is that its 425 range. 225 seems to be the standard for abilities like this and would be a lot more fair.

Failbot DeployAug 12, 20151 votes

It is either the duration or the cooldown that is broken. The balance team seemed to have problems with long point and click stuns (Rammus, Taric, etc.), but it's okay on Irelia, even though her DPS is wtf levels higher than those two combined. That, combined with an inability to cc her back effectively to kill her (passive) makes it incredibly frustrating to counterplay, especially given the circumstances where she can bladesurge a couple of times and be on the squishies, cc them to death since it only takes 1 second of her beating on them to die, and still find an easy way out.

I'd say increase the cooldown. 8 seconds for a 2 second stun is just absurd. With CDR it can be 5 second CD. 40% uptime essentially on a point and click stun on a tanky fighter assassin character. I'd say it isn't a stun, but Irelia players never play with more health than you, but they can outtrade so heavily in those 2 seconds.

Edit: Didn't know it was 425 range. WTF is that? Shouldn't it be really close to her AA range? No wonder she can close on squishies with no punishment. Can't kite her since the range is basically AA range for most marksmen. Between ping and reaction time they may not be able to kite at all. /edit

Drey GasaiAug 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Irelia's stun has had its paradigm since she was created as far as I know. To suggest it's because of Juggernauts that it hasn't been changed seems a bit over the top.

For what it's worth, I don't really like how it works either, so I'm open to hearing improvement opportunities. Do you have any suggestions for how it should work? Or at least what specifically is broken about it?

I think something as powerful as Irelia's stun shouldn't be a point and click. Seeing as she's the "Will of the blades", how about she sends one of her blades ahead a certain distance. She would use her "force" and just plant it into the ground ahead of her. The aiming reticle thingy would look like Aatrox's q, just not a gap closer. Instead of the low/high hp thing she has, if it hits someone on the inside it would stun, and on the outside it would slow. The range would have to be pretty short considering her love of dashing. Anyway, that's an idea I had for her. One of the worst things about fighting irelia is knowing that she will just e > auto you 3 times with w on if you have more hp. With a skill shot on that strong of a skill, some counter play could be introduced.

Aeolian MelodiesAug 12, 20154 votes

No, you're getting punished for trading with her and not finishing the job.

darkdillAug 12, 20152 votes

I didn't trade with her at all. She just dived onto a minion next to me from roaming, stunned me with her first E, and kills me before the stun comes off.

How is that fair? And yes, I did ward, she just gave no fucks.

TysminAug 12, 20151 votes

the ward isn't supposed to deter her it's to let you know that you need to get the fuck out of there

Shadow GilgameshAug 12, 20152 votes

Seems to me like it could probably use a minimum % difference to be sure. It's no fun to die from 35% health because she was at 34.9% heath so she got a 1-2 second stun.

It's a cool turnabout mechanic so I'd rather not see it go, but as it stands it often is a "I win trades 4 free" against anyone who has to get in melee range.

Not to mention once she hits 6, she can turn around cases where she's down 20-30% no problem because she stuns, then heals tons. if it became a stun at 10% or 20% lower instead of the second she has less health she wouldn't be so strong pre6 and you could punish her more for blowing her ult.

GloriousKaiserAug 12, 20151 votes

I like to think Riot has their eye on everyone but simply doesn't have the time or resources to look at them. I'm sure they have a pre-determined balancing schedule and a team that reacts to the current meta and balances accordingly.

TheVishualAug 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Punished with up to 2-second stun for getting ahead of her? What the fuck?

But oh wait, she's not a Juggernaut, so Riot doesn't care right now.

If time has taught us anything GD directs the nerf bat.... so just keep posting about it and they will get the message eventually

EnosetcAug 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

If time has taught us anything GD directs the nerf bat.... so just keep posting about it and they will get the message eventually

we've been posting about that for months. riot nerfs whoever the hell they want to

IcyPepperAug 12, 20151 votes

I'm not quite sure it's her stun that's toxic.

At least the range isn't too far and it's reliant on her being less health than you. Otherwise, it's her only cc.

darkdillAug 12, 20152 votes

Sometimes it works when it looks like she's at equal health to you, not less health. Heck, I've even seen it happen once or twice when she had slightly MORE health.

IcyPepperAug 12, 20151 votes

More total health, or more % health?

The way it's worded, it seems like it's leaning to the latter.