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is matchmaker intentionally ruining accounts, or just patehtic garbage?

AngelooJzC··3 votes·1,699 views

It's getting absolutely crazy, so far today it has been impossible to win a game : right now I'm having TWO UNRANKEDS BOT AND THEY'RE NOT EVEN PREMADE. I had tons of unrankeds, the most r%%%%%ed golds with 30% winrate, inters, troll picks.... Right now, those guys are 17-4. Ashe has 43 farms when vayne has 118. Clearly, something is wrong. In, like, 15 games, I had maybe 10 garbage uncarryable team. Riot is intentionally trying to ruin my account? Or is matchmaking getting even more garbage by the day?

22 Comments

AngelooJzC2 votes

And now I have an unranked and A FKN BRONZE!!! A FKN BRONZE IN GOLD LOL Riot is pathetic

Kai Guy3 votes

Yea you should dodge that game.

18 / 4 / 7 6.25:1 KDA Penta Kill MVP

^ that Vayne is duoed with the bronze guy whos 14G 11W 3L 78%. Clearly unwinnable. get out now.

AngelooJzC1 votes

lmao wtf are you on 5/12 17% winrate

AngelooJzC1 votes
MagicFlyingLlama1 votes

You are lv53, you are not gold MMR, probably dont belong in gold yet, and you are matched with equally new players who have not played enough to stabilize their MMR.

I get matched with everything from unranked to plat, and i can safely say that has no impact on their actual abilities. Rank means very little at that point and is often wildly disconnected from MMR until people play hundreds of games.

Kai Guy1 votes

150 to 300 last time I saw a value.

Match average for the guy is in silver.

Skill is off a curve so probably not wise to use the same standards of skill by server.

I think riot shifted their starting MMR this year so that a higher % of folks get gold rewards. Silver 2 as a start point instead of silver 3. I don't quite understand the impact of positional MM yet, and i am not positive its used on all servers. People confuse that with positional Ques which got killed.

People still use titles as a skill measurement with out knowing the basics on how to check if a title is accurate or not. People still use WR as a skill measurement with out checking for context. 100% out of 2 games is not that big of a deal. 90% out of 100 is.

MagicFlyingLlama1 votes

150 to 300 last time I saw a value.

You cant see your real MMR in client or via the API, so who knows what that value actually was. But low silver for a newbie sounds right.

FioraWillCarry2 votes

New players should be placed in Iron, not Silver. This shit causes a lot of problems.

AngelooJzC1 votes

exactly I see more gap in gold between people than in silver. I had an adc with 1/3 the other adc's farm; hadnt seen that for a long time, except for trolls. But this guy seemed to be doing his best, he was just unranked against a gold. It feels like playing an aram when bots are mixed with real players

Kai Guy1 votes

The curve is built around the starting point on the ladder. So every one has their skill compared to the average player which is what determine if you are above or below average. Changing the starting point to represent iron with no impact on how the curve is built does not make the ladder any better. You just take the % of players who are roughly below the 50 percentile, then make them all into iron. That then sinks the rest of the ladder down. Less in gold less in plat less in diamond etc. Its like going from KPH to MPH. Kilometers are larger numbers, but you don't change the actual speed of a car off what its measured with. Your time to arrive is the same regardless of if you use KPH or MPH. If its a 20 min drive its a 20 min drive end of story.

The probability expectations do not change just because you shifted titles down. Some one who buys a diamond account Does not magically become A diamond level of skill just because that title is on their account.

This change helps no one. The speed that a new account moves on ladder in response to how positive or negative they impact teams is whats going to be important to having less Mismatched games. If MM looks to protect players in a range as much as possible by trying to account for experience as it builds lobbys is gonna make far more impact on quality because it can be set to try to avoid potential mismatches back to back. I hope riot does this, I don't know if they do.

FioraWillCarry1 votes

To be honest, I hadn't thought of this. Perhaps we should move away from the MMR system, which measures relative skill difference to an absolute system like the one used by the ICCUP ladder. That system ranks you from D- to Olympic. It goes D-, D, D+, C- ,C........A-, A, A+, Olympic. You gain and lose points based on the difference of ranks. All new accounts start at the D rank on that ladder. I played a lot of StarCraft on that ladder before SC2 killed it off. That ranking system works a lot better than League's system.

Kai Guy1 votes

https://iccup.com/starcraft/sc_rating_system.html

This is just a rating system not a MM system thou. Its Gains are skewed + Gaps between Divisions disproportionate.

So you blaze thru lower ranks and feel good because you "climbed" half the ladder. But your gains are 100 points vs a "D" Graded player and your losses are 50 vs a "D" graded player in D Grade. So you need to have a 33% wr to be stuck. Anything over 33% = you play enough games you promote to C.

The C? Same thing. B? Same A? same. Edit. A slows down thou. It goes from -50 on a loss to -75. But 10 out of 14 divisions can be climbed at 50%.

Its not till you get to the Olympic Tier that you don't have higher gains for a win then points lost on a loss.

That's a much lower hard cap on # of games to do it too. Mouse to D+ is 1 - 2999 points. 50% = 50 points per 2 games. 120 games required to advance at 50%.

And you don't want to let any level of skill play and be pulled from the same MM system in league. You don't want to see D- in your B+ games.

So the high losses to far lower tier players shouldn't ever be a thing because for league having those players in your games is not gonna be positive.

I don't know how you would add Bayesian updating to this system. Not saying its impossible, I just don't know how. How exactly does it balance skill between teams if all that's needed is investing enough # of games = being the same rank as some one whos burning thru the competition?

End goal is we want to make better MM. I don't see how Icup would accomplish that better or lend itself as stronger distribution model to be used over probability theory.

FioraWillCarry1 votes

Very nice analysis of ICCUP's system.

However, if I'm understanding you correctly, you seemed to be concerned that it may be to easy to climb the ladder because of how forgiving the system when calculating point gains and losses which in turn you seem to suggest would place a lot of players where they don't belong.

In theory, yes. However, I've played thousands of games under that system back in the day and I assure you, it's no where near as easy as it would seem. Firstly, each player, whether playing 2v2 or the more competitive 1v1 mode, knew before the game starts the ranks of all players in the lobby so they could opt out of matches. So a D- player playing a B+ player wouldn't happen unless both players want it. The joining player could leave or the hosting player could kick. Secondly, like League in season 9, Starcraft is a very unforgiving game. You will NEVER win against a more skilled player and as simple as that rating system was, it was terrifyingly accurate at getting you to your correct rank. It may seem that needing to have above a 33% win-rate to climb is too forgiving but trust me when I tell you, you can get hard stuck very easily. That system was so accurate that if you placed a hard stuck D+ player against a hard stuck D- player, you can be 95% sure that the D+ player would win. In fact, I was hard stuck D and D+ for years and I made it to C- once by playing vs a bunch of D- players. I could do that because I can be 100% sure that a D- player is less skilled than I am and I would win.

Under League's MMR/ranking system, you can only be that sure if the there is a difference of 4 or 5 tiers which isn't very accurate. If you place a Bronze 1 team vs an Iron 1 team, the Iron 1 team still has a high chance of winning which means it's not very accurate at determining who belongs where. An Iron 1 team should have no chance vs a Bronze 1 team and under a system like ICCUP's rating system, this would be the case. I feel it in my bones, that system would work a lot better in League than what we have currently.

Kai Guy1 votes

How in-depth of a response do you want? I can grab some graphs and charts if you like seeing visuals. Wont be able to do that till tomorrow thou as I am heading out to work after I post this.

The issue I have is that the starting point at the bottom makes it very difficult to build a curve that can be used for quality MM and the end goal should be a skill biased ladder not a time based leaderboard. If you cant sink, if you don't have uncertainty. An account with 9000 losses into a mix of wins and losses that resulted in +20 game balance looks exactly the same as a new account that won 20 games back to back. They would get used by MM as equivalent skill, show up in the dame range of "skill" Have the same rank. Meanwhile in MMR that -9000 guy is at the very bottom of the ladder, and a new account with 20 Wins would be 20 games worth of MMR above the starting MMR.

So it impacts MM a great deal if you don't let folks sink and treat the lower 50% of players as equivalent in skill for MM usage. Like if one day MM said all players under silver 1 are now treated exactly as the same skill as Silver 1.

Now you do see Iccup sort skill, because skills a real thing. Its naturally occurring. The fundamental idea behind Elo, use naturally occurring averages to find a value to help represent skill expectations. His idea is hard to disagree with, In a game of skill by definition skill matters. Humans are inconsistent, good and bad performances, so use an average for their skill value.

So Higher skill vs lower skill results in better odds for the more skilled player to win. If this is consistently untrue then the assumption of who was more skilled at the game was wrong, correct their values in response because proof of skill is from results of a game. The more dramatic the gap in skill the more dramatic the impact on WR. Like beating the snot out of your friends in smashbrothers then getting your ass handed to you online. 100 wins vs some one your expected to beat 100% is not impressive.

Under League's MMR/ranking system, you can only be that sure if the there is a difference of 4 or 5 tiers which isn't very accurate.

Nah, we just see titles. They are a distraction. MMR has expectations built from the gap in values that's a consistent set. Using Arpad Elo's then 1c=200 points. At any place on the ladder a 200 point gap = 756% to 24% odds in the Elo system.

What Riots probability's are or the values they use to represent them are hidden, its why I say seeing the MMR number is pointless . If you don't have the context of what is used to build them and what the system thinks the odds between values are its pointless. Gaining 50 points in 1 system could be worth 100 in another. Some chess sites use a higher starting value for Elo to attract players, Some one whos 1400 on site A is prefers to use site B because they are 1600 and thus feel better.... Yet they are still the same skill at chess.

So its not just 5 divisions. Its off the points. equal points = 50% odds, usually with a few points of wiggle room. Then for every % break down you have a point range going from 49% to 51% all the way to 0.01% to 99.9% So 1300 has the same % expectations to win or lose inverted by the gap. 1100 loses to 1300 the same amount that 1300 is expected to lose to 1500. The entire thing measures you vs the average of the range your in for MMR. And as it gets smaller sample size as you move away from he center those averages represent less players.

MagicFlyingLlama1 votes

I, as a past Gold, got placed in Iron IV. I had to wade through waves of the damn things to reach high silver, taking a break now before going on through gold.

The system is drunk.

Kai Guy1 votes

91 to 273 is the range Microsoft provides for their MMR system in games of 2 teams with 8 players. You can look at the math for that here

AngelooJzC1 votes

{quoted}

You are lv53, you are not gold MMR, probably dont belong in gold yet

LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO thx for the joke xDDDD

MagicFlyingLlama2 votes

Feel free to elaborate. We can see you are lv53 and past-season unranked right here on this page. Your current season rank is Gold IV with rather average stats and not very many games played.

AngelooJzC1 votes

lol "elaborate" what?

Kai Guy1 votes

(update his op.gg. Its a common mistake to not update it. dudes at quite a few games.)

AngelooJzC1 votes

lmao now a FKN BRONZE 2 ADC IN GOLD 53 FARMS TO 120 WITH AN UNRANKED TOP PURE GARBAGE MATCH MAKING AT WORK...

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