team algorithm is designed to prevent you from climbing

AngelooJzC·Aug 23, 2019·8 votes·2,821 views

This is what I found after thousands of games. Whatever elo I'm in, I usually stagnate because of the teams riot gives me. I've been iron, bronze, silver, up to gold 2. And I have roughly the same winrate in all of those elos. Not that I ever get outplayed - I find the ennemies easy and predictable, 99% of the time. But even an iron 6 yi can pentakill when he's fed 20/0 at min 5. The problem is how hard people feed or they're just incapable to do what's needed to win. Those are my latest games : https://i.ibb.co/ByrX28T/team-algo.jpg I haven't changed anything. Those are the actual teams riot gave me. I just removed 2 "filler" free wins designed to keep people playing. Aside from this, every single one of my bot lanes have been literally inting. Every.Single.One. There are more, I just got bored. **Keep in mind the reality of the games was even worse ** in general their kda was even worse early, and, later, they got a couple kills in the chaos of the melee, and generally played safer (lol, when 1/8) because they were affraid their kda looked bad, and people tanked for them in teamfights. I never had any problem with the ennemies and got very good stats (low death, high assists, high farm), until I'm repeatedly 1 shot by some diana they fed hard, or my team just stays 5km behind when I ult with amumu. Which is why I sometimes included earlier recap on the right side. And I'm not even mentioning trolls. These people are bad. And they deserve some kind of sanction. But if they got a fair game, would they get rekt so hard? I might feed too against a challenger (though I'd probably afk tower instead). I think they were just playing against much better players. 7 times. In a row. That means the algorithm matching up players has been consistently placing much, MUCH worse players bot lane in my team than in the other team. Not just once, twice, or 3 times. But almost every game so far.

31 Comments

R4ndom F1nnAug 23, 20196 votes

All part of the 50% holy winrate riot wants everyone to have

AngelooJzCAug 23, 20191 votes

I doubt In 10 games, they lost me 8. Or it's part of the algorithm to screw a minority of accounts to make the majority closer to 50%

Kai GuyAug 23, 20191 votes

Have you ever seen a Normal distribution table? Where do you think the bottom half of the populations gonna be on the curve? Have you ever been graded on a curve?

DeathBurstAug 23, 20194 votes

Can I ask you a question?

Imagine we are in an ideal world and matchmaking is perfect. Every game is fair, and both team are of exactly equal strength every time. In that perfect world, what would your winrate be?

PhearBunnyAug 23, 20195 votes

{quoted}

Can I ask you a question?

Imagine we are in an ideal world and matchmaking is perfect. Every game is fair, and both team are of exactly equal strength every time. In that perfect world, what would your winrate be?

100% i am the greatest.

3 TearsAug 23, 20191 votes

The snort that came out of my nose from seeing this, I love this

1wolfpackAug 23, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=R4ndom F1nn,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2V2aHnHe,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-08-23T09:45:30.566+0000)

All part of the 50% holy winrate riot wants everyone to have

I dunno why u got downvoted, this is straight FACTS

DeathBurstAug 23, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Can I ask you a question?

Imagine we are in an ideal world and matchmaking is perfect. Every game is fair, and both team are of exactly equal strength every time. In that perfect world, what would your winrate be?

AngelooJzCAug 28, 20191 votes

That would be 50%... IN HIGH ELO THOUGH [slayer-jinx-wink]

DeathBurstAug 28, 20191 votes

Why "in high Elo"? If the system works correctly, everyone is getting fair games, not just the people at the top, there is nothing specific about them.

So everyone should be at the same winrate, except for (small) statistical fluctuations.

AngelooJzCAug 29, 20191 votes

the system chooses people in the same elo, so if you're playing at a lower elo it cannot give you players of your level

DeathBurstAug 30, 20191 votes

But your Elo (MMR) is supposed to BE your level. It isn't exactly that in practice because the system is not perfect, but that's what it's supposed to be.

That's also (part of) why you get a MMR and a Rank that are not always aligned. Because MMR is supposed to be your "true" level, and just that, while Rank has a lot more conflicting goals, like pushing you to play all year long and not just your 10 placement games.

AngelooJzCAug 31, 20191 votes

how can it reflect someone's skills when the only thing that influences mmr is winning or losing a game?

ZgragselusSep 15, 20191 votes

Now I have a problem with this - while in ELO system that would work, the introduced series literally fuc**d this up. Series system per definition is punishing players who are having balanced win/lose within specific game range, compared to advantaging those who have long streaks of consistent win (and win only), over the ones having just higher percentage of winning.

Case situation - plat 2 - 0lp, climbing: 1.) 12 wins in a row, then repeatedly 3 losses, 2 wins and 3 losses 1 win (10 times) - so he gets into platinum -> diamond promotion (where he stars by 3 losses, and then wins push him back into promotion ... repeatedly, so he can't fall down, in the end he is plat 1) - total number 42 wins and 60 losses. Win ratio of about 41.2%

Now imagine a player who has win ratio of exactly 50%, he wins 1 game, loses 1 game. He stays exactly where he is.

Player winning 60% of games, always wins 3, loses 2 ... after 102 games he would still be in plat 2 (he wouldn't be able to beat series and stay in higher one - due to 2 loses right after 1 win in plat 1, which will ultimately demote him.

So... whole ranked tier after series/promotion update is one large misstep of RIOT. Even if you do statistical analysis of this system, it will take several orders of magnitudes more steps (i.e. games) to balance, than basic ELO system.

EedatAug 23, 20194 votes

being this delusional

DeathBurstAug 23, 20193 votes

So what do you think about people who do manage to climb? What's the difference? Why is the algorithm treating them differently?

3 TearsAug 23, 20193 votes

It's because Riot is specifically picking him out of all players to keep down, and looks into the future to see if these people will do bad and puts them on his team. [sg-miss-fortune]

DeathBurstAug 23, 20191 votes

Snark feels good, but actually that's not my point here. If you want to convince people (and I do), you have to genuinely empathize with them first.

My question is not rhetorical, and I really want to know what OP thinks about it, if they took the time to think about it at all.

3 TearsAug 23, 20191 votes

Fair enough

AngelooJzCAug 28, 20191 votes

there can be tons of reasons -they might be privileged because they bought RPs or are identified as streamers -they might be privileged because of their behaviour (high honor, low reports etc) -they might be randomly picked to be in the "winning bracket" aside from algorythm -they might get good teams and face bad teams, repeatedly, simply by chance -they might just be lucky consistently (on the billions of games played, that definitely happens) -their play style and attitude might give them an advantage when paired with bad players (like being a hypocrite doormat and overlooking annoying brats) -they aren't advantaged, they just play better; instead, it's people like me who are disadvantaged (because of not buying RPs, "negative behaviour"...?)

a few explainations that came to mind

DeathBurstAug 28, 20191 votes

Bought RP: OK, that's actually a consistent explanation. I absolutely do NOT believe this is actually the case, but at least that would be logical.
Good behavior: that would also be logical, but there is an even simpler explanation: people with good behavior climb, not because the algorithm favored them, but simply because good behavior actually wins games by itself. Don't tilt, don't flame, stay focused, and a lot of comebacks are possible, especially in low MMR.
Randomly picked: that would explain HOW certain people climb and not others, but there's absolutely no reason WHY Riot would do that. Why would they spend the time and effort to make two brackets and biased match-making instead of just letting a fair system work by itself?
Just chance: no, you need a lot of games to climb, and chance doesn't matter over a long series of games.
Just chance again: no, still no. And I don't see the difference with the previous point. To be precise: yeah, maybe it happens for one or two players over the few millions playing Ranked, but that doesn't impact the fairness or the competitiveness of the ladder at all, and it's completely negligible from a statistical point of view.
Playstyle/attitude give them an advantage: yeah, what you mean to say is "they are better players", and so they climb because they deserve to climb. What do you think will happen when those "hypocrites and doormats" have climbed and now get matched with better players? You think they will suddenly start losing, because staying focused on the game is not an advantage anymore? Of course not.
Not advantaged, just other people who are disadvantaged: no, that doesn't work. If the system knows you will lose because it's giving you unfair games on purpose, it ALSO knows the team in front of you will win easily. There's no way to disadvantage certain players without symmetrically advantaging the people against them.

So overall, you made one good point: maybe Riot is advantaging people who generate money for them. Maybe, and it's almost impossible to test from the outside and to be sure. But there are a ton of clues that suggest ----don't prove, but strongly suggest---- that this is not the case.

Streamers usually get to high MMR before starting to stream, because no one cares about a Silver streaming.
Lots of people climb again season after season and consistently reach the same point, despite being placed much lower at the beginning of the season.
Lots of people reach comparable levels on their main and their smurfs.
Even the click-bait videos on YouTube don't pretend you can just buy skins/spend money to win. If there was even a hint this was the case, every greedy channel ever would jump on the occasion to make some buzz and get tons of views and clicks.
The risk is super high for Riot if they get caught, and the reward is not that big. Really, people who already spent money showed they are already happy with the game as it is. What's the need to favor them? And it's not a reward either, an incentive to spend money, because it's not official. In fact, it would probably be smarter to favor the people who DON'T spend money so that they keep playing, until they finally give in.

So, we can't be sure, but no, Riot probably doesn't favor paying customers. And Riot probably doesn't make unfair games on purpose. Oh, there are some unfair games for sure, because the system is not perfect and sometimes buggy. But it's not on purpose, and if you spend enough time grinding, you'll get to the Rank you deserve.

Hot LeBlanc YuriAug 23, 20192 votes

To be fair, you are playing a jungle that relies on your team. So maybe its time to give up on nunu and try something that doesnt rely on these r%%%%%s as much.

AngelooJzCAug 28, 20191 votes

I see extremely few junglers that don't rely on the team... Maybe kha zix and shaco?

Hot LeBlanc YuriAug 29, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I see extremely few junglers that don't rely on the team... Maybe kha zix and shaco?

Sure.. but nunu is a jungler that cant really go off and do his thing like most others do, he relies on his team to react with him and for him from lv 1 to 18. And most bad players dont see or just dont understand or just dont care about you or what you're doing. Basically to win in jungle there you have to be selfish, but nunu isnt allowed to be selfish if you get what i mean

Sir Pentious Aug 23, 20192 votes

I get what you are saying , its not normal, teams dont try to win and it seems the enemy team allways has someone actually trying to do something. Its frustrating , you know you are better than this but the game wont let you climb. There should be individual ranking systems, its called solo/duo but the team of 5 fucks up ur game, why is it solo/duo if u relly on them? A big percentage of us is not where they are supposed to be.

AngelooJzCAug 28, 20191 votes

Exactly... People ruin the game because you took one of their cs, because you ganked at 7:23 instead of 7:22... The only people who manage to climb play very specific champs and learn to trick idiots into winning despite their intention to lose lol...

AngelooJzCAug 23, 20191 votes

wasnt lying, riot intentionally int games https://i.ibb.co/qpd0SfH/rigged.jpg

Sona PingAug 23, 20191 votes

{quoted}

wasnt lying, riot intentionally int games https://i.ibb.co/qpd0SfH/rigged.jpg

Yeah, that guy is a Riot sleeper agent, planted to lose your game. Not that people may do bad in Bronze...

Kai GuyAug 23, 20191 votes

So what do you think about people who do manage to climb? What's the difference? Why is the algorithm treating them differently?

^ Death said it well.

MavëríckAug 28, 20191 votes

{quoted}

This is what I found after thousands of games. Whatever elo I'm in, I usually stagnate because of the teams riot gives me. I've been iron, bronze, silver, up to gold 2. And I have roughly the same winrate in all of those elos. Not that I ever get outplayed - I find the ennemies easy and predictable, 99% of the time. But even an iron 6 yi can pentakill when he's fed 20/0 at min 5. The problem is how hard people feed or they're just incapable to do what's needed to win. Those are my latest games : https://i.ibb.co/ByrX28T/team-algo.jpg I haven't changed anything. Those are the actual teams riot gave me. I just removed 2 "filler" free wins designed to keep people playing. Aside from this, every single one of my bot lanes have been literally inting. Every.Single.One. There are more, I just got bored. **Keep in mind the reality of the games was even worse ** in general their kda was even worse early, and, later, they got a couple kills in the chaos of the melee, and generally played safer (lol, when 1/8) because they were affraid their kda looked bad, and people tanked for them in teamfights. I never had any problem with the ennemies and got very good stats (low death, high assists, high farm), until I'm repeatedly 1 shot by some diana they fed hard, or my team just stays 5km behind when I ult with amumu. Which is why I sometimes included earlier recap on the right side. And I'm not even mentioning trolls. These people are bad. And they deserve some kind of sanction. But if they got a fair game, would they get rekt so hard? I might feed too against a challenger (though I'd probably afk tower instead). I think they were just playing against much better players. 7 times. In a row. That means the algorithm matching up players has been consistently placing much, MUCH worse players bot lane in my team than in the other team. Not just once, twice, or 3 times. But almost every game so far.

Dude I get 3 wins then 3 losses, and every game is a one sided stomp where I lose. All my wins are hard fought yet I get worse team mates when I lose that feed before I can have any impact, don't ward, don't invade/guard, keep going in when they are low, it's just awful.